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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes CC - 08/20/2015 - MINS 08 20 15 SCWS (Migrated from Optiview)Special Called Work Se ss ion of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 2015 at 5 :00 pm Page I of22 This summary is provided as a convenience and service to the public, media, and staff It is not the intent to transcribe proceedings verbatim . Any reproduction of this summary must include this notice. Public comments are noted and heard by Council, but not quoted. This document includes limited presentation by Council and invited speakers in summary form. Thi s is an official record of the Milton City Council Meeting proceedings. Official Meetings are audio and video recorded. The Work Session of the Mayor and Council of the City of Milton was held on August 20, 2015 at 5:00PM. Councilmembers Present: Councilmember Karen Thurman, Councilmember Bill Lusk, Councilmember Matt Kunz , Councilmember Burt Hewitt, Councilmember Joe Longoria and Councilmember Rick Mohrig. Mayor Joe Lockwood presided over the meeting. • Work Sessions are an informal setting to update Council on business items. • No votes will be taken during these sessions. • There are two (2) items on our Agenda tonight. • Public comment is allowed that is germane to an Agenda Item. • If you wish to speak you are required to fill out a comment card and turn it into the City Clerk staff. • Public comment will be allowed for a total of 10 minutes per agenda item and no more than 2 minutes per person. • Public comment will be heard at the beginning of each Item. • Once the item is called, no other comment cards will be accepted. Agenda Items #1 and #2 was read. 1. Discussion of Conservation Subdivision Ordinance. (Kathleen Fi eld, Co mmunity Development Director) 2. Discussion of AG-1 Modifications. (Kathleen Fi eld, Community Development Director) Kathleen Field, Community Development Director For the audience sake , we do have copies of what we are going to be discussing tonight. I just want to set the context for our discussion this evening , so you have a sense how we organized the documents that you will be reviewing. Graphically , I tried to show where we are and what we have tried to accomplish. If you look at the bottom horizontal line which represents acres , any development from 0 -19.999 acres , will remain with the AG-1 as it currently exists. After 20 acres there will be choices for development. These are the development options available: 1) Conservation Subdivision Ordinance (preferred option), or 2) Revised AG-1 with enhanced developments standards , or 3) Use the existing AG-1 standards but a Special Use Permit must be requested Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 2015 at 5:00pm Page 2 of22 --------------------------- Let me reintroduce Don Broussard and Bruce McGregor, who have been our consultants helping us work through this for several months . They are the authors ofthe Conservation Subdivision Ordinance draft. They will give a brief presentation and answer questions, if needed . Don Brouss a rd It is proposed that for lots greater than 20 acres in size, two development options will be available: 1) Conservation Subdivision Ordinance or 2) Revised AG-1 with enhanced development standards. Within Conservation Subdivision Ordinance there are three options as well : I). Proposed Conservation Subdivision Ordinance A. Basic Requirements • Within AG-1, R-1 and R-2 , Conservation Design would be used at any site larger than 20 acres. • Conservation Design includes: o Conservation Subdivision Design • Minimum green space of 50% • Base density of one unit per acre • Community septic required o Estate Subdivision Design • One principal dwelling per 3 acres • Conventional onsite septic • Minimum green space of 50% • Minimum 1 0% of buildable area for outdoor recreation o Buffer Subdivision Design • One principal per 1 acre • Conventional onsite septic • Meet increased buffer standards B. Application Process • Application • Context Map -Very high level • Site Analysis Map -Drilled down some • Yield Plan o At this point does not require a soils test • Sketch Plan Review and Approval • Pre-application meeting and submittal of context map • Review of Site analysis map • Planning site visit • Sketch Plan • Elevation drawings (if requested) Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20,2015 at 5:00pm Page 3 of22 Four Step Design Process • Step 1: Delineation of Green Space Land • Step 2: Location ofhouse sites • Step 3 : Alignment of streets and trails • Step 4 : Establishing lot lines Conceptual Plan Required C. Approval Process • Planning Commission and City Council Hearing and Approval Required • Approved , Approved with Conditions , Denied • Appeal is to Fulton County Superior Court D. Lot Design • Minimum buildable lot is 0.25 acre • Estate lot: 3 acres • Double frontage prohibited • Green space shall be 50% of the gross tract area E . Wastewater Treatment • Community septic or community wastewater treatment is allowed • The system , when required , can occupy the secondary conservation area • The maintenance and ownership shall reside with the developer, the HOA or an operator permitted by the State • The City of Milton can , in its sole discretion, be a third party trustee upon the approval of the City Council F. Storm water structures • Required and allowed in secondary conservation areas G. Tree save • Required II. Revised AG-1 Development Standards for Lots Greater Than 20 Acres • To accompany the most recent CSO draft , changes to the development standards for the AG-1 zoning district are being proposed. These proposed changes will apply to all lots greater than 20 acres in size . For any lot 20 acres or less , the current AG-1 zoning district will still apply. The changes include: increase the rural view shed from 60 ' to 100 '; decrease the front setback requirements to 20 ' for houses on lots fronting on both on exterior and interior streets; require a rural-style entrance to the subdivision; allow for agricultural uses , such as horse pastures, within the rural view shed ; and require a minimum percentage of green space (1 0%) to be set aside into a permanent conservation easement or deed restriction. Special Ca11ed Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 20 15 at 5:00 pm Page 4 of22 III. Special Use Permit • In place of the two options as presented above , applicants may request a special use permit to utilize the current AG-1 zoning district standards. Councilmember Lusk Do you have any examples to show of other Conservation Subdivisions or further explain to us in more detail other than this Buffer Design? Don Broussard I think what you are trying to ask is if all the house sites are clustered into a comer of a piece of land. If you look at the thousands of these that have been done throughout the United States, I'm sure you could find a couple that are like that. But, that is not the typical pattern. Once developers have made the commitment to build a conservation subdivision and hired landscape architects , a lot of good thought goes into the process . Councilmember Hewitt On page eight of your draft at the bottom under location of house sites , I was a little confused when reading the last sentence , "House sites shall be located not closer than 50 feet from primary conservation areas and secondary conservation areas ." Are house sites different than house lots? Is that the structure? Don Broussard We put that in the definition because we knew that was an unusual term . House site means the approximate footprint of an existing or proposed residential building within the buildable area of a lot. Councilmember Hewitt So , that is the structure itself? Not within 50 feet of that ? Don Broussard Correct. That is the footprint of the structure. Councilmember Hewitt While we are discussing issues in that same section , let 's move on to "the establishing of lot lines." I was confused about where it states , "lots shall be regular in shape ". How can they be regular in shape when that is not the last step of the process ? Don Broussard I think the intent is that the lots should be a shape that can be measured with some certainty. Councilmember Lusk What has been the response from other jurisdictions regarding conservation subdivisions? Don Broussard Cherokee County has been very receptive to conservation subdivisions. Since passing the ordinance , virtually all of their subdivisions are conservation subdivisions. However , some of the main differences in Cherokee County are that the lot sizes are much larger and they have sewer. The CSO in Forsyth County and Johns Creek has not been used very much. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 2015 at 5:00pm Page 5 of22 Councilmember Kunz How can we prevent a developer from developing 1 0 acres then another 10 acres and skirt the 20 acre minimum? Don Broussard Well, we chose the 20 acre minimum because that is the safe breakpoint for community septic systems ; the economics work out good at 20 acres and above. For example , a person with 60 acres could sell 18 acres to a developer for a conventional subdivision and then several years later sell another 18 and so forth and the total 60 acres could be developed as conventional subdivisions over time . Councilmember Thurman How can we prevent that from happening ? Don Broussard You could put a time restriction on the use of an individual 's land. If they develop "X" amount in one year then they would have to wait, for example , five years until they could develop anymore of their land. Councilmember Lusk Has that ever been used and if so has it been challenged ? Don Broussard It has been used in other states . I don 't know if it has been used in Georgia. Councilmember Mohrig Just so I understand the Buffer Subdivision Design is the revised AG-1 ? Don Broussard That was my understanding that it was basically a revised or improved AG-1. Councilmember Mohrig So , there are three types of potential development on 20 acres or above subdivisions: • Conservation Subdivision • Estate Lot • Improved or Enhanced AG-1 And , the Special Use Permit is used if someone has claimed a hardship and says they don 't want to do any of the above three ; that they can 't do them. They would have to come before the council for review. Don Broussard Yes , we are all in agreement with the 20 acre threshold based on community septic issues. However , the special use permit needs standards which you can develop. I have a problem with the terminology. I think the word "shall " should be used instead of "preferred ". City Manager Lagerbloom The reason the word "preferred" has been used is because based on the council feedback that is the word that was recommended. It is trul y the mandatory versus optional position. The council can choose to Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 20 15 at 5:00 pm Page 6 of22 use the word "shall". I have not heard that the majority of the council feels that way up to this point in the process. Mayor Lockwood Don, I know there are some differences of opinion of what you wanted in the ordinance versus what was given to us tonight. Could you please let us know what those differences are? I know there are some legal issues too. Don Broussard "Shall " versus "Preferred" Method. The use permit for conventional subdivision development ; the applicant "may" apply; I think it should say , "shall". I think there should be more elaborate standards under the circumstances that council will grant a special use permit. Also , I noticed that the word "hardship" has been removed. I thought it made sense to call it a "hardship use permit". City Manager Lagerbloom Removing the word "hardship " was advice from our City Attorney. City Attorney Larry Ramsey Hardships are generally related to variance requests where you have truly objective criteria where your BOZ appeals are determining whether there is a hardship. Use Permit is a category where the council operates in a more legislative fashion and has discretion to decide whether a criteria is met or not. Mayor Lockwood Don , all respect for your work but this was not changed haphazardly it was changed based on council or legal input. Kathleen Field I just want to make sure this is clear for everyone. The way we structurally set this up is that we have this CSO with the three design criteria in it: the regular conservation subdivision design , the estate subdivision design and the buffer subdivision design. Those are embedded within the CSO and that will require review and approval from Planning Commission and City Council. We also have available , the enhanced AG-1. We have enriched some of the development standards that we currently have in the existing AG-1 and are calling it , AG-1 Plus , which starts at 20 acres. The difference between the enhanced AG-1 and the CSO is that CSO requires a review and approval by the Planning Commission and City Council while the enhanced AG-1 is by right. With enhanced AG-1 , one does not have to go through a review process but will have to follow the revised development standards. If you do not want to do those two options , then you may apply for a Special Use Permit to access the existing AG-1 with those existing development standards . Councilmember Mohrig Where is the enhanced AG-1 ? Kathleen Field It is a separate ordinance. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 2015 at 5:00 pm Page 7 of22 Councilmember Hewitt Kathy , all of these options (basic , estate or buffer) would have to go through the same approval process? Kathleen Field Correct. City Manager Lagerbloom There was some concern that one of the criteria by which the council would conduct the review of the comprehensive plan as well as the thoroughfare plan. Those were removed by the city attorney because of his desire to not have them follow the word "shall" in any ordinance because they are guides to the city but they do not have the binding effect of a law in the city. To include them after the word "shall" was a bit problematic. Councilmember Mohrig Don, can you state again why we have the Special Use Permit Conventional Subdivisions underneath the Conservation Subdivision option and not a standalone like AG-1? Don Broussard We did not see the enhanced AG-1 until Saturday morning and at that time it was called RR-1. We were not aware at that time staff was working on that kind of ordinance. So all the conservation regulations you have in front of you did not anticipate another kind of zoning district that would somehow be related to the CSO. Councilmember Mohrig So it is in here because before when you were developing it, this is where it fit and you did not have another option. But we really are saying this is the umbrella on how we are going to develop larger subdivisions. Don Broussard The approach we were trying to take was to work within your existing zoning framework (AG-1, R-1 , and R-2). Given that part of the code , we worked on what can we plug in here that relates to AG-1, which is where most of your development activity has been occurring. City Manager Lagerbloom What I am hearing is that the council is in favor of a Conservation Subdivision option and also in favor of seeing enhancements to the current AG-1 standards. I want to clear up that buffer subdivision is not AG-1. This CSO as it stands would apply in AG-1, R-1 and R-2. It is not intended to be any type of modification for the current zoning district as defined early on in the code. Maybe we could move on and let Kathy describe how we are including some of these rural characteristics such as view shed , entry way, protected green space, etc. Kathy Field What is this enhanced AG-1? Here are a few of the highlights. These proposed changes will apply to all lots greater than 20 acres in size and includes the following (highlights): • Increase of the rural view shed from 60 feet to 1 00 feet. • Subdivision entrances shall be rural , simple and rustic in design. Similar to the simple entrance of Six Hills. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 20 15 at 5:00 pm Page 8 of22 • Allow for agricultural uses within the rural view shed. • Require 10% ofthe development 's gross acreage to be preserved as green space. • Require a Use Permit ifthey opt out ofthe enhanced AG-1 and access the existing AG-1. This enhanced AG-1 is still allowable by right which is different from the CSO. Nothing has really changed; we just increased the development standard requirements from the existing AG-1 to the enhanced AG-1 by increasing the setback from the public road while decreasing the setback from the front interior street. The intent here is for a person driving down the road , they will see more green space and houses further off the street. We are also allowing pastures to be created , with guidance , for someone not in a subdivision for a bona fide agricultural use. Councilmember Thurman I think it has to have some consistency, you can 't have a house on one street setback 20 feet and on the other side of the street the house is setback 60 feet. Kathleen Field We can certainly create some language but it will have to be sensitive case by case. We can work with the city architect and come up with something where there is not such disparity between setback sizes. Councilmember Thurman We need to be consistent with the subdivision entrance requirements for less than 20 acres as we have been for subdivisions 20 acres or greater. Kathleen Field We can certainly do that. City Manager Lagerbloom If you wanted to amend AG-1 in its entirety to include these new standards , it certainly would be the policy decision of council. Councilmember Thurman There are certain changes we are making that I think should be made across the board , no matter if the y are above or below 20 acres. The entrance should be consistent throughout. City Manager Lagerbloom Does the council have a feeling on that? Councilmember Lusk Why have higher set of standards on this parcel and then on the parcel right next door we have less standards? I also would like to see the same application process with CSO and enhanced AG-1 , to give more consistency. Kathleen Field Application but not review and approval , correct ? City Manager Lagerbloom How does the council react to that? Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 2015 at 5:00pm Page 9 of22 Councilmember Thurman Can we do that or is that considered a taking because they do not have to go through the whole process now and have the right to develop the AG-1 without ... City Attorney Ken Jarrard I think it is a different construct. One I view in the nature of zoning and I do not view the CSO that way. We can make them similar but they are going to be viewed by a different standard. My position is that they are different in nature. City Manager Lagerbloom What I see is there needs to be a consistent standard for approval and consistency in development but if we are going to establish review criteria in conservation, why shouldn't we carry that same review process through the enhanced AG-1? Ken Jarrard We can but I just view them as different constructs. I view the CS regulation as more of a subdivision tool not a zoning. I think they are structurally different. Councilmember Thurman We are seeing these subdivisions being developed under the current AG-1 standards and they never come before us. Councilmember Hewitt I think the key words are review and approve. Ken Jarrard If it is already zoned , I have seen other jurisdictions impose some sort of a plat review process, where you have some very finite detailed criteria that they review. If they meet those criteria, they typically get their plat approved. It does provide public input , staff input and council notice and input as well. It does not give you the tools quite as significant as a standard zoning. Mayor Lockwood Respectfully, I have a differing opinion on that. Communication would be good for all. I don 't think we should make them jump through more steps if we already have the zoning and ordinances in place and they are adhering to them. Ken Jarrard I do believe you can add more process or public participation, I think once those requirements are met, I think the council has limited options at that point. Mayor Lockwood If we have requirements and the developers are meeting those requirements then to have a Public Hearing for someone to pick it apart is not in our best interest. I believe it is in our best interest to firm up the requirements. Councilmember Mohrig I think if we could at least add making public and council aware of what is being built would be helpful. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5:00 pm Page 10 of22 Mayor Lockwood I agree with communication and confirmation that everything meets the standards and codes. City Manager Lagerbloom Do we have a consensus built around the idea that if we are going to enhance the AG-1 standard we should apply it to the entirety of the district or is there consensus around larger acreage and bigger or do we not have consensus at all? Mayor Lockwood I prefer the 20 acres or more. Councilmember Thurman I think we still need to be consistent with the entrances . City Manager Lagerbloom Am I hearing .... Councilmember Kunz I would like to hear public comment before we start to give direction. Mayor Lockwood Are we done with the presentation of AG-1 ? If so we can go back and take some public comment. Kathleen Field Yes , my presentation is done. Councilmember Hewitt I have a few more questions on the CSO if that is alright. In section 50-144 , page 11 , the minimum allowable size for buildable lot is 10 ,890 square feet (0 .25 acre). In some of the past drafts , we talked about a percentage of lots being this size and a percentage of lots being greater than that. Is that not contemplated anymore or could we potentially have something that is all quarter acre lots? Don Broussard In my draft, last week I still had the 33 % limit in it. We came to a conclusion that if we are raising the minimum lot size to a quarter of an acre , in the interest of flexibility for the development , we would remove that limit. City Manager Lagerbloom What it had said was the minimum allowable for buildable lot is 10 ,890 square feet. Then it went on to say that 33% of those had to be at least 11 ,000 square feet. Since 11 ,000 square feet was the new absolute minimum , it didn 't make since to keep it. Councilmember Hewitt So , now you can have the whole neighborhood be 10 ,890 square feet lots ? Also , are the individual community wastewater treatment systems and their associated drain fields allowed in secondary conservation areas above and below grade? Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20, 20 I5 at 5:00 pm Page II of22 Don Broussard That would be correct. City Manager Lagerbloom Are we at the point in the discussion that we could hear from Carter as well as people in the wastewater treatment industry? Mayor Lockwood That would be fine at this time and then we will have public comment. Carter Lucas, Assistant City Manager We have tried to get a good cross section of the industry to answer any questions you may have on the community septic system and how it would work under the CSO. Andy Lovejoy is a professional engineer with Civil Engineering Consultants. He operates and designs in the fields of wastewater and water infrastructure and serves as the City Engineer for the City of Cumming. Charlie Evans is with Environmental Management Services. They are an operator of these systems and they provide operating consultants and laboratory services for more than 100 clients throughout North Georgia. They are experts in the privately owned utilities and they operate the system that serves the Publix at the comer of Birmingham and Birmingham. Mike Sims is a project manager who is also with Environmental Management Services. John McDonald is with IntegraWater. They operate public/private partnerships for infrastructure. Sam Hasatti is also here tonight. Dr. Hasatti is a principal with GeoSciences Engineering and he is an expert on soil and soil sciences . We are here tonight to work through any concerns or issues we may have. One thing I would like to point out is that the systems as they are contemplated within the current CSO are systems that are already allowed within the City of Milton. So , it is not new science that we are introducing to the city. We do have one system that operates on the lot that is adjacent to the Publix at Birmingham and Birmingham and serves at least three comers of that intersection including the proposed residential component that will be on the southeast comer. We have talked to several jurisdictions who also operate these systems. I think we have heard from most of them that the systems do function. There is no one size fits all. There are different technologies to choose from. The most important aspect that we heard from all of our representatives is that the systems need to be designed, installed, and maintained appropriately. If you lose one of the legs of the system, it will have the tendency to fail. One of the major discussion points tonight is the level of risk that the city is willing to absorb in the future. There are different levels of involvement that the city can assume. The city can take a complete "hands-off' approach and allow the regulatory system that is currently in place to handle the systems. Another approach is that the city could act as a trustee all the way to the level of being an owner and operator of the system. Mayor Lockwood Does council have any specific questions? Dr. Hasatti For your information, 10,000 plus gallon septic system has to regulated by the EPD. Councilmember Kunz Is it true that some of the soil in Georgia does not allow for community septic? Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20, 20 15 at 5:00 pm Page 12 of22 Dr. Hasatti Yes , that is another problem. Councilmember Lusk How long does it take to permit a system that is 10 ,000 plus? Dr. Hasatti Usually 2-3 months. Carter Lucas Andy , when you permitted the septic system at Birmingham and Birmingham , how long did it take ? Andy Lovejoy Two weeks. The EPD has recently changed their process so it does not take as long. Councilmember Thurman My concern all along is that with community septic systems is that they can be "tied into " by other developments increasing density; however , with our AG-1 stipulations and the regulation of the CVO , this would not be possible. Is that correct ? City Attorney Jarrard Yes , correct. Charlie Evans The only way a system could have other developments tie into it is if all of the legwork to build the system was done ahead of time to allow for greater capacity. And , developers are not going to spend any more money than they have to when building a subdivision. They will put in the size system that they need for their development. They are not going to put in a bigger system at additional cost to them. Mayor Lockwood Carter, could you please tell us the information you have discovered regarding a city having the responsibility of one of these systems. Carter Lucas The City of Newnan operates several of these systems and they seem to be working fine. Forsyth County allowed the use of these systems and they operated under private entities. However, they were not maintained very well so now the county has taken them over. We discovered that the systems that were the most successful were the ones that were owned and operated by the municipalities. For the City of Milton , we are not certified waste water operators. So , we would have to engage in a public /private partnership similar to our relationship with SafeBuilt. The larger systems can probably function well with a private subdivision operating the system but the smaller subdivisions would probably have more difficulty operating the system in the long term. City Manager Lagerbloom If you look at the case study of Forsyth County , they began by taking a "hands off' approach and now ten years later they have had to take over several systems. One way they have been able to take care of these systems is by the subdivisions paying a $5 ,000 fee for the development to be connected to sewer. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 ,2015 at 5:00pm Page 13 of22 Milton does not have that golden parachute. We do not have the option to connect to sewer if the system fails. Councilmember Lusk Can you tell us about your involvement with community septic systems in other jurisdictions? Charlie Evans We handle the installation and maintenance for several jurisdictions. Milton will have to decide how they want to approach it. There are three ways to go about this: 1. Completely hands-off with more stringent guidelines in your CV 0 regarding proper installation and maintenance. 2. Because the systems will all be privately owned there has to be a trustee. There has to be a third party impartial entity that takes over in the event that the owner cannot take care of it. They would be legally responsible for the ownership and maintenance of the system. 3. Become the sole owner of the system and assume all the responsibility that goes along with the ownership. Mayor Lockwood I think this would be a good time to hear from the public . PUBLIC COMMENT Tony Outeda, 325 Taylor Glen Drive, Milton, Georgia 30004 We have lived in Milton for seven years. We moved here from Laguna Niguel, CA. It was a wonderful place to live other than the fact that we lived in a conservation subdivision. We lived there for six years. I have heard a lot of comments alluding to the fact that conservation subdivisions are wonderful. Well, it doesn 't always work out that way. When you have a lot of big houses on small pieces of property next to each other, it doesn't seem to work. We actually had public sewer and it was still problematic and unpleasant to live in and look at. That is the main reason we decided to move to Milton instead of another place in the Atlanta area. I really thought Milton had it all figured out with one house on one acre with one septic tank. And , Milton did not want public sewer to come in their city so the one house/one acre/one septic system was not going to change. I am telling you this from experience. Conservation Subdivisions are not all they are cracked up to be. I would urge the city council to deny this ordinance. There is no reason to make a change when Milton is great just the way it is. Rob Spee, 14748 Taylor Valley Way, Milton, Georgia 30004 I applied your efforts to try to find a way to preserve the rural feel of Milton which is why all of us who live here chose to move here in the first place. I think the litmus test has to be that whatever you decided to do; does it really preserve the rural feel. I'm not sure some of the ideas we have heard really do that. I am concerned with unintended outcomes with some of these decisions. I think one of the great examples of this is the roundabout that I drive by every day on Birmingham Highway. It does a great job with the traffic. Traffic flows much better now but I can't believe when I drive up to it all the signs; I think there are 42 signs in that one roundabout. I don't know why there are so many signs. Maybe it was a federal mandate with funding but it is just crazy. That is an unintended outcome of a good intention. I think the community subdivision is going to give us the same kind of crazy high density environment. As I look at what we have here in front of us; these three options, the buffer subdivision should just be wiped out as an option. The revised AG-1 takes care of that in an even better way. The estate subdivision design sounds okay. I think it would help preserve the rural feel. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20,2015 at 5:00pm Page 14 of22 However, I think you could do some things to add to that. Add the same rural view shed and entrance requirements as the revised AG-1. The conservation subdivision does not pass the litmus test of preserving the rural feel. It is crazy to adopt that financial liability for the city and all the potential problems that it will cause. My suggestion is to offer two development options; the estate subdivision or the revised AG-1 but I would increase the 10% requirement to something even greater than that for the conservation space. The following citizens were not available to speak at the meeting when their name was called. Lauren O'Neal, Freemanville Road, Milton, Georgia 30004 -Milton Business Owner Dottie Heed, 800 Colonial Lane, Milton, Georgia 30004 -SUPPORT Jack Lindon, 14810 East Bluff Road, Milton, Georgia 30004 I would like to make a few comments. There were two issues that were raised that I think I related. One was the discussion about whether off-lot drainage systems were a part of an on-site system or part of a community system. I thought it was defined as part of a community system and I think it should be that way. Maybe that is not possible. The off-site drain systems , I think , deal with a lot of the problems. They are used very often with these types of conservation subdivisions. In my research of the subdivisions that I have seen in the United States , that I have studied , the ones that are not on sewer systems almost half of them use off-lot drain fields. So, it is a valid approach. And, the other thing to say about it is; you have talked about this twenty acre minimum and the problem of if you want to go to something smaller than that because you are concerned about developers gaming the system by trying to take a lot size of 30 acres and trying to do two subdivisions with that. If you use off-lot drain fields , you can, I think, reduce the minimum size of these subdivisions down below twenty to maybe ten acre systems where they may be too small for economically using community septic systems but they would work for these off-lot drain fields. Scott Reece, 13685 Highway 9, Milton, Georgia 30004 Please make this an option; not mandatory. There are multiple concerns in the community; the size of the lot, all front facing garages on 60 foot wide lots, we 've got to decrease the lot size if you go with a conservation subdivision. Everything I have heard today as far as the waste systems is addressed for large tracks of land. I think a couple of gentlemen were talking about the minimum that were economically feasible for them to manage or police or 100 units. I don't see how the 20 acre minimum or size; you are looking at 15-16 lot maximum. I don't think we have thought this through. I don't know that we have a huge problem with the City of Milton. We seem to be killing ourselves to recreate a city that has the highest quality of life in Georgia based upon what we have done in the past. I know most of you are "move-ins" and you haven't been here. Please don 't mess this up. Cleveland Slater, 13670 Bethany Road, Milton, Georgia 30004 We moved to this area in 1997 before the City of Milton existed. The city created a lot of promises that we would not see some of the conversations that we have heard here today. I bought land, designed and built my own farmhouse with tin roof and bought a tractor and thought I could enjoy living in a rural environment. I knew things were going to change. I saw the cows leave . I think the last cow pasture is gone now. I saw many horse farms leave. I saw individuals that grew up here had gardens in their backyards. Things change , we know things are going to change, but I never thought that I would see the day that we would discuss introducing commercial sanity sewer systems into this community that I love. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5 :00 pm Page 15 of22 I grew up on a farm in South Georgia. I know what a rural environment is. I fell in love with this place when I was at Georgia Tech. I would ride up here and ride these dirt roads because they reminded me of home. Why did it remind me of home; because it does not have commercial sewer. It was barred from this area. That is what protected this environment. That is why we have something rural to preserve. We would not even be talking about preserving rural Milton if sanitary sewer was allowed into this area. If you are not scared and you are not concerned before you heard the experts speak; you should be concerned now. It has been said; these systems fail. Homeowner associations do not know how to maintain these systems. We are travelling down a risky road. We need to ask ourselves; what is our objective? We want to preserve rural. We need to define that and then we need to write an ordinance that does that. I really want to preserve rural Milton. There is where I wanted to raise my family because it reminded me of my home that I grew up in. There are certainly a lot of things we can do to make and preserve rural Milton. But we have to be careful and think about what we are doing and why we are doing it. Look at the big picture. A lot of people have spent a lot oftime on this CSO. We need to decide if it is right for this area. Look at what happened in Cobb County; Legacy Park. Look at what happened in Forsyth County; Old Atlanta Club. I built the model homes in Old Atlanta Club. Do you all know how many systems have failed in Forsyth County and they county has had to take them over. Does Milton want the risk and liability of managing these systems? This ordinance as it is written allows four houses on an acre twenty feet apart with a twenty foot buffer. Julie Zahner Bailey, 255 Hickory Flat Road, Milton, Georgia 30004 I am concerned with the CSO. I believe that it is not density neutral. It should be density neutral. This document has yield plans that would introduce density. Today , with a septic system , you have yields that are sometimes two, and three , and four acres. This does not accomplish that. That is a shame and it should not be allowed to proceed unless density neutrality is at its central component. There is no property protection. I don't want a CSO with a quarter acre home and a storm water facility and a waste water facility in my back yard. I do own 27 acres and I never signed up for a quarter acre piece of property behind me with a home and a storm water facility and a waste water facility behind me. I have invested almost 30 years in this community. I care about it. It is my home and my kid's future. I do not want for my property and others not to be protected. There is not adequate adjacent property protection within this document. Lot size is still too small. A quarter acre lot is not rural. It wasn't rural ten years ago and it is not rural today. It will not be rural tomorrow. Wastewater treatment systems I have to say it wasn't that long ago that we all said , many of us sitting around that table , we won't allow for sewer extension. Private sewer is sewer extension. However we slice it , it is sewer extension and we need to digest what that means because we promised a lot of people that we wouldn't do that. Green space, this document includes green space that isn't green space. Storm water facilities are not green space. The other waste water facilities are not green space . If we are going to talk green space; let's make it green. The buffers are not sufficient. We have talked about that. As an example , it says that I might be able to benefit from a 150 foot buffer if the land adjacent to the CSO is something other than AG-1. But, we are all talking about AG-1 property. So , I am on AG-1 property and the CSO next to me is going to put density next to mine and the Community Development Director could give me 150 feet unless my land is AG-1 and could one day be a CSO. So , it completely contradicts what it was intending to do so the language is irrelevant. In terms of lot standards , the way to narrow, when you can pass sugar to the folks living next to you , that is not rural. That is not what we signed up for. With regards to the 20 acre minimum , as Councilmember Thurman said , how do we distinguish between the person that owns 19 acres versus 21 acres ; it is arbitrary. I don 't think legally as a city we want to have arbitrary allocations for land. I've got some other statements with regard to the AG-1 standards. I am concerned about them not applying to everything. I think Councilmember Lusk brought it up and said, "why wouldn 't we apply these to all?" and , I would agree. It needs to be applied to every piece of AG-1 land. Whether it Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 20 15 at 5 :00 pm Page 16 of22 is a small sign, whether it is green space , if we are going to require certain people to do certain things we should require it of everybody. The CSO is not the right tool for Milton. We have tried for almost two years to get it right and it is not right. I am asking you to please consider the many letters and citizens comments that you have received before this evening. Bill Bailey, 255 Hickory Flat Road, Milton, Georgia 30004 When I read the CSO my first thought was that this is really scary. And, I thought 20 acres is very arbitrary. I think we need much larger parcels if you are going to put in community sewer systems. If you want to bring sewer into our area and change the whole atmosphere of this area, then you need to do it on larger parcels. You shouldn 't force me with this special AG-1 development. Our property is our largest investment and I don 't think I should be required to give away 10% of it. If anybody came to this table and said , you need to give the City of Milton 10% of all your assets so they can buy land for conservation, no one would stand for it. Walter Rekuc, 615 Scarlet Oak Trail, Milton, Georgia 30004 The buyers in Milton are not looking for smaller lots with a price that is $30 ,000 to $40 ,000 higher for a lot that is really equal to a one acre lot. That is not what they are looking for. When we are trying to make a comparable offer especially when we are looking for in these cases when we are seeing that the septic system going to have to put up so much money to basically have a certain amount of money set aside for the maintenance of that , you may even be looking at $70 ,000 more than a conventional lot. This is not right. The same thing with a septic field; it cannot be in the primary conservation area. It will have to be in the secondary as well. Under federal law, you are really taking a lot of property rights away from these homeowners and what they are able to do with the property. I really feel like you are going to get a lot less number of lots because of what you are trying to do. Where anybody came up with 50% open space , I don 't know of any other jurisdiction that has something like this and why you came up with 50% is just beyond me. This is just incredible. And , then the other problem I have is the whole reason for the ordinance; if you are going to say that this is what the city wants to have , I think you have to practice it in what you do in your own back yard. If this is what you are going to say you want , you want open space , etc., then you need to practice it with what you do with your park system , with the city properties that are developed and everything else. When I teach my daughter to do something, I have to practice it myself, because I have to be the best teacher to make sure those lessons are taught. If you are going to develop a park , then you better have open space , you better have certain things that are done. I don 't see that being done with the land that the city is buying . Same thing with the roads; you are making roads stay out of these buffer areas. When you are developing most of these lots , they do have flood plains and steep lots in those areas and to say that they can only be outside of these open spaces does not make a lot of sense. No minimum lot coverage is mentioned in any of this ordinance; it is just mentioned 25%. Certain things about making sure we show elevation of houses. There is no one that asks for elevation of houses. Many of these are custom homes and many of these developers have no idea what they are trying to build . Same thing with cutting down trees; sometimes it is better to cut down trees and have replacement trees to go up . To say that you are going to save a buffer to save a certain number of trees doesn 't make sense. Sometimes you are also better to put a berm up and put screening up than to save a bigger buffer. To say that a berm does not make sense just does not make sense. I can show you a tremendous number of places where berms are built all over the community. Someone is just not working; we need to get developers and builders together at the table to discuss this and we could come up with some solutions. No one is getting us at the table and I am just very frustrated about how we have gotten to this point. We are not here to make things worse; I would hope we would be able to make things better. Yesterday , I was clever and wanted to change the world; today I am' wise and I just want to change myself. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20,2015 at 5 :00pm Page 17 of22 Bebee Susong, 14880 Freemanville Road, Milton, Georgia 30004 As you can tell , I am an elderly person. My mother is even more elderly, she is 99 years old. I just put her in a nursing home a year ago. I need to sell my property. I am on a limited income. I don 't need moratoriums to keep anything from happening. Taxes are high , insurance is high . Milton has a lot of subdivisions. Has everyone had to go through all this to build a subdivision? I need to sell my property. I need the money. I have to take care of my mother. Somebody will have to take care of me because I won 't have any money to take care of me. I feel like you are going to stop developers from doing anything. This is my property ; it does not belong to Milton. I like green space but Milton has a lot of green space. Tim Enloe, 13005/13075 Bethany Road, Milton, Georgia 30004 The Conservation Subdivision proposal should be added to the current list of options that others have used in regards to the best use of their property . It should NOT be mandatory. Of the 23 ,000 acres that makeup this city , I have heard that only 3,000 to 6,000 acres of "rural " land is left which has not been turned into subdi visions , strip centers , or schools. This development has transpired because : A. Land owners chose to sell for various reasons from profit , to tax increases , to wanting to get back to a lifestyle that was taken from them through no fault of their own. B. Council and staff approved it. C. Majority of residents voted with their money and supported development by buying homes in subdivision These precedents have been defined since inco~oration in 20006 and even before in some cases. Any such change now is a pure violation of the 14 Amendment which states it is illegal to "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws ". Also , as a rule , the government cannot take or unduly restrict the use of one 's land without proper compensation. My family has lived here for over 37 years ; longer than the majority of today's citizens . We have witnessed countless farms fall. Penalizing the few who have held on with more and more red tape is not the answer. If you want land owners to stay, treat us equally. Protect our right of "quiet enjoyment", our right to equal safety , our lifestyle and our animals. Pick up the phone and talk to our open road neighborhood residents , listen and fix their concerns . Build equestrian infrastructure to encourage more horse owners to move here and the current ones to stay . Create an aggressive marketing campaign to promote it. Support unique business ideas that call for larger acreage parcels; from bed and breakfasts to agriculture. Any other approach will result in remaining land owners washing their hands of this area and when they do , they will want what an yone else would -the most they can get for their property. Legal fights can cost thousands. People live the way the y live because it works for them ; when you don 't protect those reason ; they have the right to be made whole elsewhere. Margaret Lamb, 845 Hampton Bluff Drive, Milton, Georgia 3004 Although not given a lot of time , I was able to review the most current draft of the CSO and am very impressed with the progress that has been made. My family has been in Milton for almost 20 years and I have witnessed the growth of our city throughout this time. It is my strong opinion that now is the right time to ensure our future growth is managed according to the city's strategic and conservation plans. Our citizens are finally engaged and focused on preserving our quality of life here . The focus of this and future smart growth initiatives should be not on the ne xt five or ten years , but on what Milton stands for our children and their children. We are all so proud of Milton now and hopefully we will be able to secure this . I am strongly supportive of a Conservation Subdivision Ordinance with options for development as this latest plan outlines. I do not think one type of development will suit all , so I think the options containing other guidelines for development that still conserve trees , help prevent erosion, Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 ,2015 at 5 :00pm Page 18 of22 and utilize green space more wisely as suggested in this CSO are needed. It is also clear to me given the current economy that it must be mandatory for development to follow one of the decided upon options in this CSO. Without this mandatory requirement I see too much potential for a builder to find loopholes and take advantage of our city for ultimately only their gain. Finally , I would like to see future discussions of this topic be coupled with the ongoing issue of impact fees. It only seems logical that these two can be married to create an incentive/disincentive fee structure to make sure we achieve what we want and what we need in an y future growth. Our current infrastructure , traffic , school growth , and park system are just a few areas of great concern to myself and almost anyone living in Milton. Thank you for considering my comments . I look forward to continuing to be an active member of our city. Liane Russell and Larry Boese, 14772 Taylor Valley Way, Milton, Georgia 30004 We are NOT in support of the Conservation Subdivision Ordinance and want to stop cluster housing in Milton. Lori Konen, 120 Taylor Valley Court, Milton, Georgia 30004 We are NOT in support of the Conservation Subdivision Ordinance and want to stop cluster housing in Milton. Joan Borzilleri, 540 Kings County Court, Milton, Georgia 30004 An open letter to Milton City Council: Four years ago I had a houseguest for a week from a small village in Kenya near Lake Victoria. Theresa Odinga was approximately 45 years old , mother of five , and had never been outside of Kenya. During the course of her stay she asked three questions: What is your tribe? How many families live in your house? And the last , after a few days of driving in and out of our neighborhood: Where are the people? My answer was that , sadly , we drive into our subdivisions, into our garages , and close the doors. Theresa showed us pictures of her village and her family , images of proud young boys wearing Obama t-shirts (her tribe was that ofBarack Obama, Sr.) and explained about her father's many wives and where her mother was in the pecking order. Her village has no running water or power source, but they have something that is becoming rare in America: rich relationships and a sense of community. This is just one reason why I support the concept of Conservation Subdivision Design. It is one small-scale attempt to return to some semblance of community while enjoying natural green space close to home. James Howard Kunstler is an author and commentator on contemporary social life. I heard him speak at the National Preservation Conference a couple of years ago. I had already read his book, 'The Geography of Nowhere' -his point being that everyplace in America looks alike , lacking history and authenticity. He specifically mentioned growth patterns in Atlanta and talked about it being the epitome of suburban sprawl and lack of planning. During my humanities studies many decades ago, one of the popular books was 'The Crack in the Picture Window' that talked about the isolation of people in the suburbs. Those of us who were dying to get out of the old city didn't realize how salubrious a city neighborhood was for a kid . As teens we could actually walk places and had endless freedom on city busses. We knew the butcher and the greengrocer by name-we were all part of the same community. If you doubt that this sense of interfacing with other people is important to us as social beings , go down to Canton St. in Roswell on an off night (not Friday or Saturday), as we did last week for a family dinner. The streets are full of people, the restaurants and shops have a lively business. The area is human-scaled and walkable. Contrast this with a strip mall , which is designed for folks to transact their business, spend their money , and get out. No strolling pedestrians here! Let's think about the consequences of our actions (and votes) before we are just another built-out Atlanta suburb. Thanks for your attention, and please embrace the concept of conservation subdivisions while working out the details that are fair to all. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 2 0, 2015 at 5:00 pm Page 19 of22 Mayor Lockwood I have one comment about the size ; what is the typical size you all would want to deal with? John McDonald For our company we do not look at anything below about 100 units. The comment was made that if it was 20 , 30 or 40 units , it will fail. That is not necessarily true. There are a number of large , private utilities out there that are not interested in the really small systems. That is a risk for the city and I was trying to point it out. If they do fail and the city is the trustee , then that is something the city is looking to have to take on potentially. Councilmember Kunz What is the minimum lot size for the passive sy stems? Dr. Hasatti Based on my experience you need about a quarter of an acre per 1000 gallons a day. Andy Lovejoy When I permit them I go for an individual permit because the general permit requires so much conservatism. We found the EPD is not difficult to work with and we can design/build a system tailored for that development without the additional permitting. Carter Lucas We have heard there are operators that will run systems down to 25 -30 lots. The smallest one I know of in operation is in Newnan and they are operating at 42 lots . The largest is Blaylock Lake with 399 lots. City Manager Lagerbloom Where do we go from here ? Procedurally , the CSO is prepared and ready for your action. The text amendments for the agricultural zoning district , however, are not ready. From a legal perspective , we would need to start with advertising, CZIM, Planning Commission and ultimately the City Council. There is a distinction between these two , one is an ordinance creation and the other is in the zoning code. City Attorney Jarrard CSO is more in the line of subdiv ision regulations whereas the changes to the enhanced agricultural would be imbedded in the existing zoning code and is better to treat it as a zoning change under the CPO. My recommendation to the council is to go ahead and give direction under the CPO for the enhanced AG-1 ; ifthat is the path you are leaning toward. Councilmember Hewitt With that process, there is ample time for more public input at Planning Commission meetings , work sessions, etc.? City Attorney Jarrard Yes , by design it will allow for that. Special Called Work Session of th e Milton City Council Thursday, August 20, 2015 at 5 :00 pm Page 20 of22 Councilmember Thurman My concern is that this CSO is nothing like what the Planning Commission had looked at previously. Should we send this newer version back to them ? City Manager Lagerbloom That "should" is up to the council to decide . This CSO needs a decision. Kathleen Field We calculated the AG-1 edits would come back to council for a vote in November with no deferrals. City Manager Lagerbloom You can have something on the books and done by December 1, 2015 . When you see this document again it will be for a vote so if there are things in this document that you believe should be different, we need to know. Mayor Lockwood Is the Council interested in moving forward with the enhanced AG-1 through the due process ? Whether it is CSO , enhanced AG-1 , or neither option , the majority of people I have talked to want the general rural feeling left in Milton. I don 't think any of these options is the fix for all , but I want us to focus on how to keep that rural feeling in Milton. Councilmember Kunz What I like about this ; and the problem we have been facing is that the AG-1 spirit within our community has been slowing disappearing by non-agricultural spirit subdivision growth. That has been happening because of the current design that we have . What I like about the newly enhanced AG-1 , the CSO , and the Estate Lot is that they continue to stay in the spirit of the agricultural component of what we have in the community. Councilmember Thurman I think we have two different documents here that have too much overlap; we need some clarity. This has gotten too complicated. I think we need to offer people the enhanced AG-1 , CSO , Estate Lot or a variance. We need to get rid of the buffer subdivision. Councilmember Lusk The truth is that the city is being developed out as one acre subdivisions . We are eventually going to look like Dunwoody , Johns Creek , and all of the other surrounding cities . We are going to be one big homogenous subdivision years from now. We all can 't afford to own 20 , 30 , 40 plus acres of land in Milton. And , those that own that much land will eventually get out and sell it to the highest bidder. Their land is their savings account. Councilmember Hewitt I am ready to vote on this issue at our next regular meeting on September 21 5 \ however, I am opposed to the city being in the utility business. Mayor Lockwood Has any councilmember 's opinion changed after tonight about the CSO going forward for a vote ? Are there some major changes that someone is thinking about now that maybe they were not thinking about prior to this meeting? Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20 , 2015 at 5 :00pm Page 21 of22 Councilmember Kunz I think we need to include in the definition of community septic some kind of leak field options or smaller options of what will be available. I don 't think we want to limit ourselves as far as the technology that is available. Carter said that we would want to be involved in the front end of this situation, so maybe a public /private partnership sounds like the way we should go if we are planning to maintain the community septic systems , however , we want to make sure it makes sense. Councilmember Lusk I agree with Councilmember Kunz. I think we need to tweak the community septic aspect of the ordinance. Councilmember Thurman We need to make sure that these community septic systems are not opening the door for higher density in Milton . City Manager Lagerbloom In summary , I have heard that the council would like to continue with creating a CSO as well as include a use permit option . In addition, I have heard that the council wants to include the AG-1 enhanced option but eliminate the buffer subdivision design. Also , everyone seems to agree that the CSO could be an option as long as it does not increase density. In addition , there seems to be some interest in cleaning up the waste water section of the ordinance to add enhanced protection to the city so that our liability is minimized and to very specificall y state that it can onl y be built to the capacity that would match the development; additional capacity could not be built. Mayor Lockwood In addition , I have said all along I think the minimum acreage amount for a CSO should be increased from 20 acres to something larger. Councilmember Thurman I have suggested a minimum of 40 acres. Councilmember Kunz I do not agree that the minimum should be increased. Mayor Lockwood I might be in the minority here tonight but I am certainl y not for the CSO being mandatory . Maybe this is the white elephant in the room but I looked at public comment tonight and I compared it to what I have heard in the community and all the emails and phone calls that I have received and probably 2-3-1 are against a CSO. City Manager Lagerbloom Would any of you like the proposed CSO to go back to the Planning Commission for a courtesy review? City Council Yes , we would like it to go back to the Planning Commission for a courtesy review. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, August 20,2015 at 5:00pm Page 22 of22 City Manager Lagerbloom In summary , we will be starting the AG-1 text amendment. We will be starting a use permit text amendment. There will not be another work session. We will give it to the Planning Commission for a courtesy review. When the CSO is returned to the council for consideration of a vote it will be an optional subdivision design. The council wants to remove the buffer design as one of the buffer design options. We will re-write the waste water requirements so they are more stringent to protect Milton and any density issues. Date Approved: September 9, 2015 Sudie AM Gordon, City Clerk