HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes - CC - 06/18/2018 (2)Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
1
Joe Lockwood: Good evening, everyone. If I could have your attention for a
second. Good evening. If I could ask everyone to please quiet
down for a moment. [Background conversation] Good evening. I
want to thank everybody for being here and ask you to please bear
with us. This is, I’m sure, our biggest crowd ever here at City Hall,
so we appreciate you being here. Before we get started with
tonight’s meeting, I’d like to welcome Sarah LaDart to lead us in
our invocation.
Sarah LaDart: Good evening, Mayor and Council. If you’ll pray with me. Dear
Lord, thank you for your many and abundant blessings. Thank you
for life, health, and friendships. Thank you for the ability to be
involved in useful work, for the honor of bearing appropriate
responsibilities, and for the freedom to embrace you and your
boundless and gracious nature. We pray for our mayor, for the
various levels of city officials, and in particular, for this assembled
council. We ask that you would graciously grant them confidence
in their knowledge of what is good and fitting. We pray for the
agenda set before them this evening. Please give an assurance of
what would please you and what would benefit those who choose
to make Milton their home. It is in your name we pray. Amen.
Group: Amen.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you very much. And again, I appreciate everyone’s patience
tonight. We have our fire marshal here that just ducked in front of
me, try to go unnoticed. And so, we’re probably pretty much at
capacity here. We’ve got our community building. We’ve got folks
there. They are listening on tape or Granicus and watching, and
they’re about a minute behind, so they’ll have to bear with us.
They’re able to speak publicly too. So, our staff is working on that.
So, with that, I’d like to call the regular meeting of the Milton City
Council for Monday, June 18, 2018 to order. Sudie, if you’d please
call the roll and make general announcements.
Sudie Gordon: Good evening, Mayor and Council. I’ll be happy to call roll for the
June 18, 2018 regular meeting. I would like to remind those in
attendance to please silence all cell phones at this time. Those
attending the meeting who would like to provide public comment
either during the public hearing or during the call for public
comment, you are required to complete a public comment card
prior to the item being called. Those called to speak will be taken
in the order that the speaker cards are received by the city clerk.
When your name is called, please approach the podium and
identify yourself by name, address, and organization, if applicable.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
2
The city council may allow public comment on either an agenda
item or general public comment from a representative of an
organized group or association, provided the individual has filed a
notarized affidavit with the city clerk that they have the authority
to speak on behalf of the organization prior to the agenda item
being called. Demonstration of any sort within the chamber is
prohibited. So, please refrain from any applause, cheering, booing,
outbursts, or dialogue with any person speaking. Anyone in
violation will be asked to leave.
As I call roll this evening, please confirm your attendance. Mayor
Joe Lockwood.
Joe Lockwood: Here.
Sudie Gordon: Councilmember Peyton Jamison.
Peyton Jamison: Here.
Sudie Gordon: Councilmember Matt Kunz.
Matt Kunz: Here.
Sudie Gordon: Councilmember Laura Bentley.
Laura Bentley: Here.
Sudie Gordon: Councilmember Joe Longoria.
Joe Longoria: Here.
Sudie Gordon: Councilmember Rick Mohrig.
Rick Mohrig: Here.
Sudie Gordon: Would everyone please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.
Group: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and
to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God,
indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Joe Lockwood: Again, thank you for your patience and everyone being here. I also
want to recognize I saw our senator, state senator Brandon Beach
here, so thank you for being here tonight.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
3
Okay. Sudie, if you’d please sound the next item.
Sudie Gordon: Our next item this evening is approval of the meeting agenda. This
is agenda item number 18-185.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Do I have a motion on the approval of the agenda?
Laura Bentley: Mayor, I move to approve the agenda.
Rick Mohrig: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion from Councilmember Bentley with a second
from Councilmember Mohrig for approval of the agenda. All in
favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That’s unanimous. Okay. Our next item’s public
comment. And public comment is a time for citizens to share
information with the mayor and city council, and to provide input
and opinions on any matter that is not scheduled for its own public
hearing during today’s meeting. That means something that’s not
our agenda, we’ll open up with public comment on any other topic.
There’s no discussion on items on the consent agenda or first
presentation from the public or from council. Each citizen who
chooses to participate in public comment must fill out a comment
card and submit it to the city clerk. Please remember, this is not a
time to engage the mayor or members or city council in
conversation.
When your name’s called, you’ll come forward and speak into the
microphone, stating your name and address for the record, and then
you’ll have five minutes for remarks. Sudie, do we have any just
general public comment?
Sudie Gordon: Yes, Mayor. We have two general comment cards. And the first is
from Dr. Everette Bannister.
Everette Bannister: Good evening, councilmembers. My name is Dr. Everette Banister.
I’m the Hospital Director at Family Tree Animal Clinic, located at
13900 Birmingham Highway in New Providence at the
roundabout. My reason for being here this evening is just to say
thank you for everything that you’ve done for me and also for the
organization with getting us up and running and helping with some
of the obstacles that we’ve had, and just being supportive for us
and the organization. So, I want to come as a representative for
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
4
Family Tree Animal Clinic and just say thank you.
I also do have a video to show as well, and just to show how proud
we are to be a part of the Milton community. [Video plays]
Hi, my name is Dr. Everette Bannister, and I am the Hospital
Director at Family Tree Animal Clinic. My passion for animals,
really it just stems from me wanting to have the ability to
strengthen the human/animal bond. I love to see when pets come in
and they’re healthy, and I’ve provided a family, I’ve provided kids,
couples, an opportunity to just bond with their pet companions and
just have a stronger relationship. And hopefully, we can eliminate
preventable diseases. We want to truly be your general practitioner
for your companion animal, and we want to guide you and take the
journey with you throughout the process so everybody’s on the
same page, everybody’s making an educated decision, and
whichever path you go down, we’re all on the same path, and we
all understand. So, the beauty about our practice is that our practice
is completely paperless.
We capture all of your information into your patient’s chart or into
your pet companion’s chart. So, when we take X-rays, once we
take the X-rays, all of that information goes directly into the chart.
The main goal is to streamline the actual exam process. So, once
you check in, you will be greeted by me and one of my team
members. At that point in time, I’ll get a history, discuss and
answer any questions you may have. We will start a nose to tail
physical exam. After the physical exam, I will go over all of my
findings with you and discuss any questions or concerns that you
may have. I will go over with you a treatment plan, and we’ll get
on the same page as far as what is going to be offered and what
you would like to leave the hospital with as far as medical care,
treatment, drugs, preventative things of that nature.
Our team members have such a love for animals that it shows in
everything that we do. We’re very passionate and very professional
about how we go about providing our service to pet companions in
the Milton community. I’m truly proud of what our team here has
to offer at Family Tree Animal Clinic. That’s why our motto is,
together on the journey of care. [Video ends]
Well, once again, I just want to say thank you. And then also, I do
want to – is thanking the community. We are – on July 7th between
11:00 and 3:00, we are having a pet and family celebration, and
thanking all of the families in Milton for being supportive for us.
So, thank you.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
5
Joe Lockwood: Okay, thank you very much, and welcome to Milton.
Everette Bannister: You’re welcome.
Joe Lockwood: Okay, Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker?
Sudie Gordon: Our next and final general comment comes from Mr. Russell
Profita.
Russell Profitt: Hi, good evening. Russell Profitt, 153 Triple Crown Court,
Alfreda, Georgia, representing the Triple Crown HOA. I just had a
comment to make about the roundabout up by Birmingham
Highway and Providence Road, to get it more regularly
maintained. And we’d be willing to do whatever it takes, but I need
a contact at GDOT to get on a more regular maintenance schedule.
It looks horrible up there, and we have a lot of nice neighborhoods
around there. And I understand it’s not Milton’s responsibility per
se, but it is in Milton. Milton does do this center island. They do
maintain that. But if anyone has been up and around there, it needs
to be addressed.
So, you have my name and information. If someone from your
office can contact me this week so we can get the ball rolling to get
on a more regular maintenance schedule, because the other
roundabouts look great in Milton. Appreciate your time. Thank
you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. I’ll ask Carter to reach out tomorrow. Thank you.
Okay. Is that all our public comment, Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: That’s all, sir.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. We’ll move on to the Consent Agenda. Sudie, if you’ll
please read those items aloud.
Sudie Gordon: First item is approval of the May 21, 2018 regular city council
meeting minutes, agenda item number 18-186. Next, approval of
the June 4, 2018 regular city council meeting minutes, agenda item
number 18-187. Approval of a construction services agreement
between the City of Milton and Superior Fence of Georgia, LLC
for a pool fence, agenda item number 18-188. Our fourth and final
consent agenda item is approval of the following subdivision plat:
Webb Road Storage Facility, land lot 1048, 2915 Webb Road,
Combo Plat, one lot, 3.286 total acres, 0.30 lots per acre, agenda
number 18-189.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
6
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Before I have a motion on the Consent Agenda, I’d like to
ask the council to split items one, two, and three in one motion,
and then hear item number four separately. I’d like to recuse from
that. One of the principals in that was a previous client of mine
with my company in the past.
Matt Kunz: Mr. Mayor, I’ll make a motion that we approve consent agendas
number one, two, and three, with number four removed.
Rick Mohrig: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay, I have a motion from Councilmember Kunz for consent
items number one, two, and three, with a second from
Councilmember Mohrig. All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That’s unanimous. Okay. I would open up for a
motion for item number four on the Consent Agenda. Chair –
Matt Kunz: Go ahead. Mayor, I make a motion that we approve the general
item number four on the Consent Agenda items.
Laura Bentley: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion from Councilmember Kunz; second from
Councilmember Bentley on item number four. And I’m gonna
recuse from the vote. All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: And that’s unanimous, without my vote. All right. We’re gonna
move on to reports and presentations. Sudie, if you would please
announce the first presentation. The first presentation is a
proclamation recognizing Niraj Jinan, and this is being presented
by Mayor Joe Lockwood.
Joe Lockwood: I had the pleasure – Niraj had reached out to me with a cause that
was important to him that he was working on, and I responded
back my email. And then we’ve got some dialogue going along,
and then ultimately met. And I have to say, I was very, very
impressed with this young man. And as I read the proclamation,
you’ll get some of the background. But it was really neat. As most
of you know, in Milton sometimes, we tend to think we live in
kind of a bubble. And most folks have everything they need and
whatnot.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
7
And Niraj, one evening, for punishment, his mother did not let him
have his meal. And so, he actually went to bed hungry one night
and thought it was a strange feeling. And that promoted him to
really look around and find a cause that he could help. And the
other thing that was – I’ll read a little bit about Niraj. But it just
amazed me, just all the things that he’s not only accomplished so
far, but with his future. And proud that he’ll be one of our leaders
here in our community and our country one day, so.
Niraj is a very accomplished young man who’s both a Duke
University TIPS Scholar and a John Hopkins Scholar. I told you I
was immediately just impressed with his compassion and
commitment to help those that are less fortunate. His mother
deserves credit for teaching her son a valuable lesson, that many
kids go to school and go to school hungry. And because of this,
Niraj has undertaken the goal to raise money for a nonprofit
organization whose mission is to feed those who are economically
and physically challenged. So, I’m going to read this proclamation,
and then I’m gonna ask Niraj and his family and teacher to come
up, and we’ll present that, so.
Whereas Niraj Jinan’s mother taught him the value of not wasting
food by establishing a house rule that you only take the food you
need, and you eat it all. And whereas Niraj learned by that, by
wasting food, there’s a consequence of experiencing hunger. And
whereas his mother served his meal later in the evening, along with
an article about schoolchildren going hungry every day. And
whereas, after reading the article, Niraj felt compelled to help these
children who are unable to focus on school when they are hungry.
And whereas, upon doing research, he discovered the program
Open Hand, a nonprofit that helps serve free, healthy meals to
economically and physically challenged people in the Atlanta area.
And whereas Niraj had made it his mission to raise money for
Open Hand.
Now therefore, we, the Mayor and City Council of the city of
Milton, commend Niraj for his compassion and commitment to
those less fortunate and for being an exemplary member of the
Milton community. And this is given under our hand and seal in
the city of Milton, Georgia, on the 18th day of June 2018.
And I know not only your teacher, your parents, but all your peers
and students, and I know I can speak for all of us here from the
city, we’re very proud. So, if you guys would step forward, along
with the council. [Inaudible background conversation]
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
8
Sudie Gordon: We’ll all shift this way, and if you’ll step back to the wall. So, if
everyone will take probably two steps this way and turn sideways,
that’ll be great. Just turn sideways just a little bit for me. This way,
in. Perfect, perfect. Sorry, I’m not always good with my
instructions. That’s my fault. Okay. Shift one more step, everyone,
this way. Perfect. Okay. Take one half a step closer there. There
you go. Perfect. Okay. [Inaudible] [00:18:05] Okay. All right.
We’re all looking at the camera on one, two, three. Smile. Let’s do
one more. One, two, three. [Inaudible] eyes. And we’re good.
Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: And I just want to say, we’re just very proud of you for the
[inaudible] we’re all proud of you [inaudible].
Okay. We’ve been fortunate tonight to talk about puppies and
honor a young individual. So, now we’ll get into the rest of our
work tonight. Sudie, if we can move on to our next item under
reports and presentations.
Sudie Gordon: Next item is discussion of the consideration of an ordinance to
revise noise restrictions impacting the use of consumer fireworks
to repeal ordinances in conflict and set an effective date. This is
being presented by Captain Shawn McCarty.
Shawn McCarty: Good evening. What you have before you is an ordinance revision
to bring the city ordinance into line with the upcoming changes to
state law. House Bill 419 was signed by the governor on May 3rd
and goes into effect July 1st. It specifically changes the regulations
on fireworks as they relate to the noise that they generate. The
changes in the ordinance will be to bring our ordinance into
compliance with state law and will shift the focus on governing the
noise generated by fireworks as opposed to just the general use of
fireworks themselves. The main factors in the changes to state law
is they’ve now included some other days, the last Saturday and
Sunday in May and also the first Monday in September, as
protected days where fireworks can be used. Any questions?
Laura Bentley: I just have a general comment for Mr. Krokoff. I wanted to – as
soon as we do make these changes, I just wanted to suggest that we
let our residents know, as well as the Milton Equestrian
Committee. I know they’ll be very interested to know the changes.
Steve Krokoff: Certainly. And this comes on for the vote at the next meeting. Just
something to be clear about on this. This isn’t specific to
fireworks. One of the things the captain mentioned is, as a result of
the new state legislation, it has to be specifically tied to the noise
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
9
that fireworks make, which I think is most of the issue that our
community has. So, those days that they added that we can no
longer regulate on, we can do just that – no longer regulate on. But
on the days that we can regulate on, we took every advantage to be
able to regulate on those days. This doesn’t mean there will be no
fireworks. This will mean that fireworks that don’t become – I
apologize. I don’t have the language in front of me. Would you
mind, Sean?
Sean McCarty: Yes. Loud and unreasonable. And I’m sorry I missed that fact. But
it does give us advantage on days that are not protected as
holidays. It actually gives us a large – it actually increases the
enforcement efforts that we have. Because when they get to a point
that they become loud and unreasonable, it gives the city a way to
legislate that and deal with that; whereas before, there were some
more stringent time restraints. And that was the whole purpose of
the ordinance. It relates specifically to the noise, so it had to be
moved into our noise ordinance, separate from legislating
fireworks. So, now it is encompassed in our noise ordinance as it
relates to any sounds generated by consumer fireworks.
Steve Krokoff: And I think, too, the key is communication, because we need to
communicate not only for those that might shoot off fireworks, but
also our citizens, because again, as you said, there’s certain days
that we can’t restrict them, certain times, and then also, it’s gonna
be monitored and whatnot. It’s not as cut and dry as I think
everybody thought, with the new law, that you could just do away
with fireworks. So, it will take a lot of monitoring, communication
and monitoring, from our staff.
Sean McCarty: The one good thing about – there are several good things about the
legislation. But for horse owners and other animal owners, the days
in which you will be hearing that noise will be much more
predictable under this. And I know that that has – from
Councilmember Bentley, has always been an issue. There should
be much more predictability.
Laura Bentley: Yup. Thank you. Randomness is not our friend, so thank you very
much for that.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you, Sean. Okay, Sudie, if you would, please – we’ll
move on to our first presentation. If you would please sound that
item.
Sudie Gordon: This item is consideration of an ordinance to revise noise
restrictions impacting the use of consumer fireworks to repeal
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
10
ordinances in conflict and set an effective date, agenda item
number 18-190.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Matt Kunz: Mayor, I make a motion to approve the first presentation as read by
the city clerk.
Laura Bentley: Second.
Joe Lockwood: We have a motion from Councilmember Kunz with a second from
Councilmember Bentley for approval of the first presentation. All
in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That’s unanimous, Sudie. Okay. Tonight, we don’t
have any public hearing items, so we’ll move on to the Zoning
Agenda. Sudie, if you’ll please read the zoning rules and sound the
first item.
Sudie Gordon: At the second regularly scheduled meeting of the month, the mayor
and city council consider a zoning agenda. These items include
rezoning petitions, modifications of zoning, use permits, and
associated concurrent variances, in addition, to ordinance,
resolutions, and text amendments.
I would like to acquaint you with some of the rules and procedures
for this meeting this evening. The applicant and all those speaking
in support of an application will be allowed a total of 10 minutes to
present the petition. The opposition will also be allowed a total of
10 minutes to present its position. If time remains, the opposition
will be allowed to rebut. The applicant may choose to save some of
the time for rebuttal following the presentation by the opposition.
Since the burden of proof is upon the applicant, the applicant will
be allowed to make closing remarks, provided time remains, with
the allotted time. Those called to speak will be taken in the order
that the speaker cards were received by the City Clerk Department
prior to the beginning of tonight’s meeting. All speakers will
identify themselves by name, address, and organization, if
applicable, before beginning their presentation.
The Planning Commission has heard this rezoning agenda items,
and their recommendations have been forwarded to the mayor and
the city council for consideration and disposition. The applicant
shall not submit material to the council during this meeting unless
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
11
requested to do so. All material that you wish to be reviewed by
the council in consideration of your application should have
already been submitted to the Community Development
Department and is included in the normal distribution of packages
to the council.
When an opponent of a rezoning action has made, within two years
immediately preceding the filing of the rezoning action being
opposed, campaign contributions aggregating $250.00 or more to a
local government official of the local government which will
consider this application, it shall be the duty of the opponent to file
a disclosure with the governing authority of the respective local
government at least five days prior to the Planning Commission
meeting. A violation of relevant state statue constitutes a
misdemeanor. Therefore, if you have contributed $250.00 or more
to a councilmember and you have not filed a disclosure prior to the
Planning Commission meeting, the city attorney strongly suggests
that you have someone else speak for your point of view.
Our first zoning item this evening is consideration –
Joe Lockwood: Can I cut in, Sudie, just to make sure, since we’ve got a big crowd
– part of our rules will take public comment cards on this item, but
they all need to be turned in before you call the item. So, we’re
about to call the item. So, on this first item, if anyone hasn’t turned
in their card, if they could go ahead and turn that in. Okay.
Sudie Gordon: Our first item this evening under the Zoning Agenda is
consideration of U18-06, Green Road, zoned T-4, open, by Little
Sunshine Daycare for a use permit for a 9,700 square foot daycare
facility, Section 64-1809, agenda item number 18-137. First
presentation was at the May 7th regular city council meeting. This
was deferred at the May 21st regular city council meeting. Mr.
Carter Lucas.
Carter Lucas: Good evening, Mayor and Council. We’ve received a letter from
the applicant asking that this permit application be withdrawn at
this time. Mr. Don Rolader is here if you have any questions for
him, but they’re asking for it to be withdrawn.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Are there any questions for the applicant of our staff? Do we
have any public on this, Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: We do not, sir.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I’ll close the hearing and open up to – if council has any
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
12
questions, or I’ll open it up to a motion.
Laura Bentley: Mayor, I’d like to make a motion to accept the applicant’s request
for withdrawal of U18-06.
Rick Mohrig: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion for approval of the withdrawal from
Councilmember Bentley with a second from Councilmember
Mohrig. Any discussion? All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That passes unanimously, Sudie. Okay. We’ll move
on to our next Zoning Agenda item. Sudie, if you will please sound
the item.
Sudie Gordon: This item is consideration of U18-07/VC18-06, 850 and 875
Hickory Flat Road, zoned AG-1 and C-1, by Curtis Mills, to
request a use permit for an outdoor music festival for periodic
concerts, Section 64-1812 on 6.48 acres, and a nine-part concurrent
variance to the following zoning ordinance requirements. First, 64-
1812(b)(2), to delete the opaque fence and replace with a four-
board equestrian fence with a 10-foot landscape strip, as approved
by the City Arborist. Second, 64-1812 (b)(4): To reduce the
activity zone setback from 100 feet to 25 feet adjacent to the
following property lines: west 421.59 feet and north 201.7 feet.
Third, 64-1812(b)(5), to allow the facility to exceed the maximum
sound requirements. Fourth, 64-1812(b)(6), to eliminate the three-
year renewal period. Fifth, 64-1142(a)(3)(b), to reduce the 75-foot
undisturbed buffer and 10-foot improvement setback to a 10-foot
landscape strip adjacent to the west property line 421.59 feet and
north property line 201.71 feet, and delete for remaining property
lines.
Sixth, 64-1317(f), to delete the required landscape islands for the
parking lot. Seventh, 64-1346(b), to increase the rural section
building maximum setback from 20 feet to 430 feet. Eighth, 64-
1323(a), parking lot to be located in front of the building. And last,
ninth, 64-1323(c)m to allow the parking lot to be in one large area.
This is agenda item number 18-179. First presentation was at the
June 4th regular city council meeting. Mr. Carter Lucas.
Joe Lockwood: And before Carter makes his presentation, Councilmember Bentley
has an announcement.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
13
Laura Bentley: Thank you, Mayor, Council, and all those here tonight. This
application for a use permit is being presented by Mr. Curtis Mills.
Mr. Mills was involved in my campaign on a strategic level as well
as financially. While neither of these things are legal ly
disqualifying, my concern is that in totality, there may be an
appearance of impropriety, as referenced in the Milton Ethics
Code. Therefore, with an abundance of caution and to avoid any
appearance of impropriety, I recuse myself during first
presentation of this item.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Carter?
Carter Lucas: All right. Good evening, Mayor and Council. For your
consideration tonight, we have a use permit 18-07, as well as the
concurrent variances associated with 18-06, for a piece of property
located at 850 and 857 Hickory Flat Road. And so, from this aerial
photograph, this outlines the property that’s been identified in the
application. It’s located on the northwest corner of the intersections
of Birmingham Highway and Birmingham Road, Hickory Flat
Road. Across the street to the east is the Public Shopping Center,
just to put it in perspective for you. And surrounding the property
on the north and east sides are Birmingham Park, as well as the
[audio cuts out] Station located up there just north of the
intersection.
The current site is zoned AG-1 and C-1, unconditional. That’s
developed with the Buice store and the associated gravel parking
lot with the Buice store. The remainder of the property is
undeveloped, with a large 100-foot-wide power easement running
through the northern portion of the property. This gives you – I
know this is probably a little bit difficult to see. It gives you an
idea of the [audio cuts out] [00:33:50] of the property. When
we’re talking about the north and west property lines, it is the north
and west property lines. This is Hickory Flat Road, Birmingham
Road, and Birmingham Highway here, just to orient you. The
Buice store sits in this very southeast corner of the property. This
is the large power line that crosses the property also.
Just to give you a little bit of background on this particular project,
Curtis Mills is the applicant and owner of the subject site, and he
has requested a use permit to operate a music venue on the
property. Just to give you a little bit of a reminder, the use permit is
a permit that allows the council to consider on a case-by-case basis
those land uses which might not be permitted by right, but would
be allowed to exist on the property on the underlying zoning with
the permit. So, while it’s not a true traditional rezoning, it does
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
14
follow our standard zoning process.
When we look at the potential use of this property, the applicant
had submitted moving the Matilda’s from Alpharetta up to this
piece. And from our perspective, the closest use permit that we
have for that particular use would be festivals and events, indoor
and outdoor events. So, that’s what we are considering this under
tonight, as well as the respective variances that may be required
under that use permit, as well as the design guidelines and
ordinances associated with that property. And we’ll be going
through that a little bit more in detail here as we go through the
presentation.
So, as I mentioned, the applicant is proposing to have a Matilda
[audio cuts out] [00:35:40] relocated from their location on
Highway 9 up to this location. That property or that business has
operated at that location for about [audio cuts out] [00:35:50]
years and averages anywhere from 150 to 200 people per event. I
would like to make note that as we’re considering this, we are
considering the use permit and not the particular operator. So,
while the applicant has indicated and has notice of intent that the
Matilda’s is intending to move here, we’re considering the use
under this particular permit as an outdoor event and festival.
As you may know, the events here are – I don’t know if organic is
the right word, but they are an outdoor, open style event. They
operate April through November for the rest of the year, at least on
[audio cuts out] [00:36:32] they operate on Saturday nights, but
have the potential to operate on Friday nights. Typically, the doors
open at 7:00. Music from 8:30 to 10:30, and closing down around
[audio cuts out] [00:36:44].
Just to give you an idea about the building that will be moved from
Alpharetta up to this particular location if approved, this is the
current Matilda’s building. And the conditions, as you will see,
have been written associated with this building itself. And a few
photos of the event facility as it exists today. The current zoning on
the property, as I mentioned, is AG-1 on the north. And in this
particular rendering, the C-1 is represented by the probably pink
color on the southeast side of the property. Future land use
indicates AG-1 to the north end of the property and a mix
live/work on the southern end of the property, indicated in the
purple or pink color.
And so, just to give you a little bit of indication on the site, if you
haven’t had an opportunity to see the property, this particular
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
15
picture is [audio cuts out] [00:37:50] on the front portion of the
property looking down Hickory Flat Drive. And our IT folks will
[audio cuts out] [00:37:59] on getting that back up here shortly.
Sorry about that. Looking west down Hickory Flat Drive, then
turning north, this is the McCurry property. That’s on the western
side of the property. This is looking back up to the north side of the
property. This is along the McCurry’s northern property line, this
property’s southern property line, that made its turn out to the
west.
Another photo up to the front edge of the property looking at the
existing Buice store and the parking lot. This is looking back
towards the east. And this is a shot through the center of the
property. The event venue would be towards the left side of this
photo, with the audience sitting towards the center and to the right
in the very far distant portion of this photo. But this is looking
north on the property. And then this would be the power line that
cuts through the property from east to west. And this is looking
northwest back towards Birmingham Park.
So, when we look at the use permits, there’s a number of different
things that we would look for. This is the outdoor music festival
use permit for this on the 6.48 acres that’s been identified on the
application. It comes with a nine-part concurrent variance. And I’ll
go through each of these concurrent variances, not right now, but
just to give you an idea. These are the variances that were
enumerated by Sudie in announcing the agenda item. But we have
four concurrent variances that would be associated with the use
permit itself. We would have one variance request that’s associated
with the rural Milton overlay design guidelines or design
requirements. And then we would have four variance requests
associated with the Birmingham Crossroads over [audio cuts out]
[00:40:05].
So, to start with, for the use permits, I’ll go through these in a little
bit more detail. The use permit outlines six standards which are
required for that particular use. And this table indicates those six
uses, and those which they met, and those which they didn’t. And
so, for instance, in the first line item, the use permit is allowed in
the required districts, which would be the AG-1, the ONI mix, C-1,
C-2, [audio cuts out] [00:40:34], M-1, and M-2, and it does meet
those standards. You’ll see on the right-hand side those that it does
and does not meet. And we’ll go through the ones that it does not
meet. So, we had four associated with the use permit that they were
requesting a variance from.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
16
Okay. So, part one of the variances was to delete the opaque fence
and replace it with a four-board equestrian fence with a 10-foot
landscape strip that may be approved by the city arborist. In this
particular case, the use permit required the eight-foot opaque
fence, which, in staff’s opinion, didn’t necessarily meet the full
intent and the rural atmosphere of that section of Milton. We’ve
requested or we have recommended approval of this, conditional to
a [audio cuts out] [00:41:30] inch, four-board equestrian fence,
which would be consistent with the fence on the adjoining property
line. So, when we look back at that property line, there would be a
four-board equestrian fence, similar to one that exists, with a 10-
foot landscape strip associated with it along that property line. It
would be along the west and north property line.
The second part of that was to recruit – reduce the activity zone
from 100 feet to 25 feet adjacent to those west and north property
lines. So, again, the two property lines that I identified at the
beginning that are along that western side of this property and the
northern side of the McMurray property. We had originally
advertised for the 100 feet to be reduced to 25 feet. [Audio cuts
out] [00:42:22] discussions with the applicant and with the
adjoining property owner, the 25 feet was adjusted to 60 feet. So,
our staff recommendation is to approve this concurrent variance,
but with a 60-foot activity zone setback along those two property
lines.
So, again, just as a reminder here, the two property lines that we’re
talking about, here is the property that is in question, Hickory Flat
Road, down on the southern end of the property, Birmingham
Highway here. It’s this property line that runs along the west side
and the north side of the McCurry property.
The third variance was to adjust the sound requirements that are
under the use permit. So, under the use permit, it has a [audio cuts
out] [00:43:23] requirement of a continuous sound of 60 decibels
and a peak sound of 65 decibels. That’s a holdover from our old
Fulton County permits. And as we’ve written our current permits –
our last permit was for a rural event facility – we’ve written those
permits with some conditions to comply with the current –
whatever the current noise ordinance is for the city. So, in this
case, we have recommended approval of changing the decibel level
to an 85-decibel peak during the times indicated, Friday or
Saturdays between 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.
And this was an effort to match our current noise ordinance for this
type of use. So, we’re trying to be consistent with the application,
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
17
our noise ordinance, and consistent with the later use permits that
we’ve written related to noise.
Part four is the final variance request associated with the use
permit itself. And the request was to eliminate a three-year renewal
period. So, that use permit has a three-year renewal permit period
on it, so that every three years, that applicant would have to come
back and apply for the permit. In this particular case, staff didn’t
feel like that it was in the best interest of the city to recommend
approval of this particular variance request, so staff is
recommending denial of the request to eliminate the three-year
renewal permit period. And that was the three-year renewal period,
not exclamation point, period, so. Sounded a little funny as I said
it, but.
All right. So, the next variance request is related to the rural Milton
Overlay district. So, we’ve stepped through the four that are
associated with the use permit. Now we’re gonna talk about the
design standards and the ordinance related both to the Overlake
district and the Birmingham Crossroads. So, this request was to
eliminate the 75-foot undisturbed buffer and the 10-foot landscape
strip that’s required adjacent to residential or residentially occupied
or used properties. And this would be adjacent to the – let’s see if
I’ve got the survey back here. This would be adjacent to the
western property line and that northern property line again of the
McMurray piece.
So, staff is recommending approval of that or reduction of that to a
60-foot setback and a 10-foot landscape strip along those two
property lines, which would allow the proposed structure to be set
within that area, and then to eliminate the buffer and setback along
the other property lines. So, if we were to look at this drawing, and
I’m sorry that it’s a little bit difficult to see, but the proposed
facility sits in about this location. You’ve got the potential or
proposed septic area in this location. You’ve got existing stream
buffers that run on this corner. You’ve got the power line, and then
you’ve got the audience seating area that’s located in this location.
So, the variance, if approved as recommended by staff, would
reduce this to this buffer here and along this property line to a 60 -
foot setback and 10-foot landscape strip.
Along the remainder of the property line, that buffer would be
eliminated. But in this case, we needed to eliminate it for the
seating area for the attendees. Along this corner of the property
line, we already have buffer in place, the stream buffers in place.
And then we’ve got the power easement that goes through the
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
18
property.
So, now we’re gonna deal with some of the requirements of the
Birmingham Crossroads Overlake district. The first one is to delete
the required landscape islands for the parking lot. So, under this
standard, there would be landscape islands required within the
parking lot, and typically, those are required when you have a
paved parking lot to provide some shade over the asphalt and
reduce heat and other things associated with the asphalt. In this
particular case, we have a gravel parking lot, and it’s intended to
remain gravel. And the landscape and the trees that will be
installed in the landscape islands would be moved to the ends of
the parking lot, which would give some screening along Hickory
Flat Road and some screening along the backside. And with the
gravel and lighter [audio cuts out] [00:48:36] that we have, the
shade associated with those parking lot trees isn’t quite as critical
as we would see in a normal asphalt paving parking lot.
So, staff is recommending approval of part six, to delete the
required landscape islands within the parking area. And then it
goes on to replace those plantings along the ends of the parking
spaces themselves.
The next few are really related to the layout of the site and where
the building needed to be located to really provide the ambience
and facilitate the use of the property. And so, the first one is to
increase the rural building setback from 20 feet to 430 feet. So,
under the Birmingham Crossroads requirement, it wants to force
the buildings to front very closely along the roads. In this particular
case, [audio cuts out] [00:49:42] the proposed location for the
building approximately 430 feet back from Hickory Flat Road. So,
this variance would allow one to place that property – place that
structure back on a more appropriate location on the property for
this particular type of use. So, staff is recommending approval of
that particular variance.
The second one associated with that, and this is number eight in
the overall list, is that for the parking lot to be located in front of
the building. So, just as we were trying to push the buildings up to
the front of the lot to give that street frontage, it requires the
parking to be located typically behind the building. It’s very
similar to what we see in the form-based codes. Again, because of
the type of use that we’re considering on this, it’s more appropriate
to have that building pushed back from the road. So, this variance
would allow the parking to be located between the building and
Hickory Flat Road, not only in the location that it’s shown, but
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
19
we’re gonna [audio cuts out] [00:50:45] parking that may be
required on the site as well. So, staff is recommending approval of
part eight of the variance request.
And then finally, to allow the parking in one large area. So, again,
associated with the Birmingham Crossroads, the idea was that we
would push the parking away from the road and building up to the
front, and then establish some growth parking throughout the
[audio cuts out] [00:51:14], as opposed to your typical lump sum
parking lot. In this particular case, because of the use and
frequency of the use and the type of parking that not only exists,
but may be proposed for the overflow, staff was also
recommending approval of this particular concurrent variance.
So, that kind of works through the application and the variances
that are being requested. I’ll step very quickly through the public
involvement process that has led us up to this point, as well as the
recommended staff conditions for this application for you to
consider. So, the Community Zoning Information Meeting – and
let me back up just one step here. While this isn’t a rezoning, as I
mentioned before, it does follow the standard rezoning processes.
So, what you’ll see through this is very similar to what you’d see
in a normal rezoning process.
So, our Community Zoning Information was held here at City Hall
on April 24th of this year, with approximately 15 members of the
public attending. That was followed up by the Design Review
Board on May 1, 2018. The Design Review Board
recommendations were to adhere to the letter of the law in regard
to the requested concurrent variances. That was followed by a
public participation plan and report that was held by the applicant,
which was held up at the Buice store on May 16, 2018. And we
had two people in attendance at that particular meeting. They
discussed the site plan, and there were no specific concerns that
were expressed to the applicant or brought back to us.
And then finally, it was sent to the Planning Commission in May
of this year. In red, you’ll see the modifications to [audio cuts out]
[00:53:11] staff conditions that were represented at that meeting
from the Planning Commission. And so, there were no months
originally in the staff condition [audio cuts out] [00:53:22]. They
recommended April 1st through October 31st as the operating time
period for this venue. There was some discussion regarding the use
of the venue on a Friday and Saturday night, where staff had
recommended Friday or Saturday night. But in conjunction with
that, that there would not be any more than six single performances
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
20
in any given month. And then they recommended that the
attendees be moved from 200 to 300 attendees.
We had some discussion about the fence. Staff had originally
recommended a five-foot high fence. The Planning Commission
recommended that that be moved to a 54-inch and be similar to the
adjoining fence so that it wouldn’t overwhelm the existing fence
that was on the McMurray property – McCurry property, excuse
me. Then there was some discussion about item 4E, to allow a
maximum 10-foot encroachment into the 60-foot setback for the
relocated building. This was to accommodate the location on the
site plan where they had shown the existing building being moved
to.
There was some discussion about the light on the property. There
was a recommendation to provide a lighting plan in compliance
with the Night Sky Ordinance prior to the first concert to make
sure that people could move from the parking area down into the
concert venue; that the site shall be only served by on-site septic;
and that the events facility shall not be limited to a three-year
period from the date of approval for the use permit. So, the
Planning Commission recommended that we remove the three
[audio cuts out] [00:55:10] requirement.
From a transportation perspective, under our original staff
conditions, we had recommended that the applicant dedicate, at no
cost to the city, a 20 by 20 miter at the corner of 372 and Hickory
Flat Road. The intent of this was to try and accommodate
improvements that may be recommended by GDOT at some point
in the future. They are currently looking at what improvements
could be made at that intersection. It’s a very tight intersection
with existing development that has occurred up there.
So, they’re being very careful with whatever alternatives they
propose. We’ve not seen those yet, although we know they are
working on them. But we wanted to make some accommodation in
the plan to allow for a right of way if it was necessary for any
proposed improvements, that would be there. The Planning
Commission had recommended that we delete that particular
condition.
And so, at the end of the day, taking all of that into consideration,
and we’ll bring forth our recommendations, should you choose to
approve this application, we have amended our conditions to –
let’s see how I can do this easily. 3A, 3AI, 4B. I know that’s not
gonna mean anything to you as I go through them, but I’ll go
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
21
through our recommendations here just shortly.
So, in considering this and the recommended conditions, the
proposed music venue, we believe, is consistent with the city of
Milton comprehensive plan update and objectives. And it’s staff’s
opinion that the proposed music venue would contribute to the
vitality of the Birmingham Crossroads, which in turn may
contribute to additional patronage to the area, especially on
evenings and weekends. Therefore, staff recommends that U18-07
be approved conditional, and that further, VC-18-06-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
7, 8, and 9 be approved, and that VC18-06 Part 4 be denied.
So, the recommended conditions from staff would be as follows.
To the owner’s agreement to restrict the use of the said property as
follows: A, festivals or events, outdoor/indoor, on 6.486 acres
within the AG-1 and C-1 community business zoning [audio cuts
out] [00:57:45]; and B, a maximum of 693-square-foot
performance stage and associated uses; C, all uses and densities
permitted within the C-1 community business zoning district,
Article 6, Division 18 of the zoning ordinance as delineated on the
city of Milton zoning map.
And two, to the owner’s agreement to abide by the following: A,
substantial compliance with the site plan received by the
Community Development Department on March 29, 2018; and
whereby the exact layout of the project may contain minor
deviations approved by the community development director,
provided the deviations remain consistent with the purpose and
intent of the council’s approval of the use permit. Notwithstanding
the contents of the site plan, the project must meet or exceed the
requirements of the zoning district, all other applicable city
ordinances, and these conditions. The site plan may be revised with
the approval of the community development director in order to
comply with city codes and zoning conditions. Unless otherwise
noted herein, compliance with all conditions shall be in place prior
to the issuance of the first certificate of occupancy.
Three, to the owner’s agreement to the following site development
consideration: Months, days, and hours of operation shall be the
following: Friday or Saturday within each week. Hours of
operation shall be from 7:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m., April 1st through
October 31st. There shall be no more than 200 attendees at any
given time for each concert or performance.
Four, to the owner’s agreement to the following site development
considerations: A, to provide adequate temporary bathroom
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
22
facilities, including handicap accessible, until which time
permanent bathroom facilities can be provided. Said facilities shall
be placed outside of any required setbacks and located in an
inconspicuous area of the property. B, to provide a 54-inch high,
four-board equestrian fence, to be consistent with the adjoining
property line fence, with a [audio cuts out] [00:59:52] foot
landscape strip as approved by the city arborist, adjacent to the
following property lines: west 421.59 feet and north 201.71 feet,
where they abut AG-1 agricultural used for residential use. Now,
that’s VC18-06 Part 1.
C, to provide a 60-foot activity zone setback adjacent to the
following property lines, with the relocated structure to be allowed
to encroach into the setback: the west 421.59 feet and north 201.71
feet, where they abut AG-1 agricultural used for residential use.
And again, those two property lines that we’re referencing there
are the two property lines that we’ve been identifying on the
survey, just to be clear about that.
D, the maximum permitted noise measured at the following
property lines where the residential use is located, west 421.59 and
north 201.71 feet, shall not exceed 85-decibel peak or continuous
sound on Fridays or Saturdays between the hours of 7:00 p.m. and
11:00 p.m. That’s VC18-06 Part 3.
E, to provide a 60-foot setback and a 10-foot landscape strip
adjacent to the west property line 421.59 feet and north property
line 201.71 feet, and allow a maximum 10-foot encroachment into
the 60-foot setback for the relocated building adjacent to the west
property line.
F, delete the 75-foot undisturbed buffer and 10-foot improvement
setback adjacent to the remaining property lines adjacent to AG-1
zone property, which is Birmingham Park. G, to delete the required
landscape islands for the parking lot and replace with plantings as
approved by the city arborist, adjacent to Hickory Flat Road and
the north side of the parking area.
H, to provide for a 430-foot rural section building maximum
setback for the relocated structure. I, to provide parking in front of
the relocated building. J, to allow the parking lot to be in one large
area. K, to submit a lighting plan to be in compliance with the
Night Sky Ordinance prior to the first concert. L, the subject site
shall only be served by on-site septic.
And then finally, we have a condition for your consideration that
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
23
was not included as part of the packet. But if you so choose to
approve this application tonight, we’d ask you to consider this
condition – that all concurrent variances that are granted as part of
this use permit for festivals and events, indoor and outdoor, shall
run concurrent with the [audio cuts out] [01:02:36] use and shall
only be valid for so long as the property is so used. The concurrent
variances shall expire if the approved use ceases to operate on the
property for a period of six consecutive months. And so, that is just
to make sure that if this particular use, which was identified by the
applicant in his notice of intent, were ever to cease to exist, that the
concurrent variances that were also granted in association with that
particular use, they would go away.
So, number five, to the owner’s agreement to abide by the
following requirements, dedications, and improvements, access to
the site and frontage improvements that’ll be subject to the
approval of the city of Milton Department of Public Works prior to
the issuance of a business license, land disturbance permit,
subdivision plat, or certificate of occupancy, whichever comes
first. The entrances and frontage improvements shall conform to
Chapter 48, Streets, Sidewalks, and Other Public Places; and
Chapter 64 of the city of Milton Code of Ordinances.
B, if at such time, the Director of Public Works determines that the
[inaudible] [01:03:43] generated by the site impacts the operations
of State Route 372, Birmingham Highway, or [audio cuts out]
[01:03:50] Road, he or she may require the owner to conduct a
traffic study to determine if the development warrants any
additional improvements, at no cost to the city. If improvements
are determined to be warranted, the owner shall install those at no
cost to the city.
And then C, finally, to reserve to the city of Milton a 20 by 20
right of way miter at the corner of State Route 372, Birmingham
Highway, and Hickory Flat Road, prior to the issuance of a
business license and disturbance permit, subdivision, plat, or
certificate of occupancy, whichever comes first.
And thank you for bearing with me. Reading all of that, I know, is
sometimes difficult, but. And that ends staff’s presentations, and
we’d be happy to answer any questions.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Are there any questions right now for Carter or any other
staff before we go to public comment? Joe?
Joe Longoria: Carter, can you flip back to the slide that had L and M on it? So,
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
24
I’m interested in the wording on L. The subject shall only be
served by an on-site septic. Is that a “no sewer” statement, or is
that a “we have to have a permanent septic system to serve this
property” statement?
Carter Lucas: That is a statement to ensure that this property is only served by
facilities on the property itself, as opposed to possibly being served
by the package plant across the street on the public site.
Joe Longoria: Ah. Okay. All right. I get that. Because we’re not suggesting that
they have to put a septic system in. Because we had just talked
about, two pages before, how they were gonna use temporary
facilities.
Carter Lucas: Oh, right, right. Mm-hmm.
Joe Longoria: And so, that’s allowed, right?
Carter Lucas: That’s correct. Yeah. The intent of that is just to ensure that if they
were to install any permanent bathroom facilities, that they would
be served only by a system on that particular piece of property.
Joe Longoria: Okay. Can you explain how – I mean, did we recommend the
location of the building that’s being put onto the property, or that
they’re suggesting that they’re gonna put on the property, or was
that their suggestion, the location where that is? I’m interested in
why we’re choosing this specific area of the property as the site for
the venue itself.
Carter Lucas: Robyn can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that was
requested by the applicant themselves.
Joe Longoria: Okay. So, that was the applicant’s suggestion. On this, now, your
language for M. That’s basically to ensure that . . . that any use of
the property, any variances associated with the property are tied to
the special use permit. And if the special use permit were to go
away, everything else would need to be tidied up, and . . .
Carter Lucas: That’s right. So, the variances that are being requested are tied to
this particular use on the piece of property.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Carter Lucas: What we’re trying to ensure is that if the use went away – and
typically, the variances would stay with the property – we wanted
to make sure that the variances would go away with the use. So,
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
25
we want to make sure that it’s all tied together as one package, I
guess.
Joe Longoria: Okay. In all of the requirements for the use permit, there is no
statement that the site must have music performed a certain
number of times a year. In other times, we have a maximum – we
have a [audio cuts out] [01:07:44] of a maximum. It can only be –
I forget what the number was. Actually, it was from April the 1st to
October the 31st.
Carter Lucas: Correct.
Joe Longoria: And no more than six in one month. But if there is no use, why is
the special use – did we contemplate the idea that the special use
permit may not be used at all? In other words, they’re gonna get
the special use permit and not have any music at the site. I know
that seems confusing. The only reason I ask is because we’re
giving up a lot of things in order for them to have this use. But
we’re not specifically requiring them to deliver this use at any
point in time. And we negotiate with ourselves all the time, okay?
And so, what I’m hoping we’re prepared to understand and debate
is the fact that [audio cuts out] [01:08:46] want to see this special
use permit used as a way of getting some other concession for the
property itself. I want to see it used for the purpose that we’re
giving it. We’re giving it for this music venue. I don’t want to see
it just done in order to get a septic field laid down somewhere on
the property. Do you understand what I’m saying?
Steve Krokoff: That’s exactly what Subsection M guarantees.
Joe Longoria: Okay. That’s why I’m asking this question. Because if this
language is supposed to cover that, I just want to make sure.
Steve Krokoff: And not only upfront, but as it continues. Let’s, for argument’s
sake, say it operated as you had expected for a year, and then for
whatever reason, things fell apart, and it ceased to operate for a
period of six months. Correct me if I’m wrong, Carter. It would
cease to – its use permit would cease to exist.
Carter Lucas: Right. And so, the condition is trying to tie the variance request to
that use. You’re right, from the perspective of that it doesn’t
require the applicant to ever hold a concert. But from the
perspective, if you want to use the septic example, for instance, it
doesn’t prevent you from allowing uses on the property that are
allowed by right. And so, if he’s allowed to install the septic field,
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
26
for instance, in accordance with Fulton County rules and
regulations, these conditions would not prevent them, nor would he
be required to have a special use permit in order to do a buy right
act on the property. Does that make sense?
Joe Longoria: Yeah. I hear what you’re saying. I’m a little bit concerned about
the removal of some of the setbacks and things, because septic
tanks – I mean, septic systems can’t be placed in those areas. So, if
we remove them, we’re actually given more space for that specific
purpose. And I don’t want to dwell on that too much. I just want to
make sure that your item M was supposed to capture the idea that
we’re giving this use case, this special use permit, up, and the land
needs to be used for that purpose. And if it’s not, then the special
use permit goes away. And you’re saying that’s what that’s for.
Carter Lucas: That was the intent. Yes, sir. That was the intent of M.
Joe Longoria: Okay. All right.
Joe Lockwood: Steve or Ken, if you want to weigh in on that too.
Steve Krokoff: Yeah, I just whispered to Ken. The one thing I just want to make
sure and make sure that I’m right in what I stated. So, this states
that the variances would expire if the approved use ceased to
operate on the property for a period of six months. But that’ll also
extinguish the use permit, Ken?
Joe Lockwood: While Ken’s thinking about that, Carter, if I can ask you a
question. The six months, where did that come from? Carter?
Robyn MacDonald: It came from the city attorney’s office, or it came –
Joe Lockwood: Okay. And the only reason I say six months, I realize the intent.
But if they’re from April to October, there’s only five months in
between. If they don’t happen to book just that [crosstalk]
[01:11:55] of six months of absolutely no activity, or
organizational activity, or administrative, or what.
Steve Krokoff Right.
Robyn MacDonald There might need to be some rewording to make sure it doesn’t get
kicked out, because that’s just seasonal. Yes.
Ken: Let me answer both questions. First of all, I like the condition. I
understand what it’s attempting to do. Depending upon how this
goes, and none of us knows how this is gonna go, but we might
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
27
want to think about some language further defining when the use is
actually discontinued, particularly with a venue that has
intermittent uses. Where I see these issues become debated legally
particularly is folks that say, well, I’ve never discontinued the use.
And we say, but you have. And they say, well, prove it. And of
course, one objective criteria could be perhaps a minimum number
of events per year, just so that if you didn’t do that, that’s an
objective trigger to know, yeah, that use is gone. Yeah, you didn’t
have one during a particular calendar year. We now know that,
objectively speaking, that [audio cuts out] [01:13:01] gone.
With respect to whether that would also – at the same time, if the
variances vanish, which I get – variances are – by definition,
they’re not zoning. Variances are something else, but they’re not
part of the zoning. The use permitted zoning. And so, I have shared
with some of you my trepidation about zoning fragments that
automatically vanish. So, to answer the city manager’s question,
would the use permit vanish if they discontinue for six months?
The answer is no. It would not, because it would not discontinue
automatically.
Joe Longoria: So, it would have to wait until the three-year renewal period came
up?
Ken: At a minimum, yes. That is correct.
Joe Longoria: So, are you suggesting that the city, being the group that grants the
special use permit, can’t revoke the special use permit if needed?
Ken: Yeah, absolutely can revoke it. My only concern is, I believe you’d
need to follow the zoning procedures law to revoke it, because it’s
changing the zoning designation on the property. Carter’s right. A
special use permit is a unique sort of creature. It’s not changing it
from one – I think the way people typically think of zoning [audio
cuts out] [01:14:11] from residential to commercial. But it is,
specificall y under the zoning procedures law, considered a zoning
decision specifically. And so, for instance, we could have a
condition that says that if the variances expire, the city council will
consider immediately lifting the special use permit, as well as
another means of putting this in front of you and taking it away, as
opposed to it automatically expiring. Variances, I don’t have any
problem with that. No problem at all with that.
Joe Longoria: All right. Well, as long as you jumped in, let me ask you a question
that’s related to this, because it gets to one of the concerns that I
have. And that is, if the use permit were to disappear, over
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
28
whatever period of time and at whatever point we state that it can
disappear, I’m concerned that we leave behind artifacts that could
be considered legal nonconforming, based on the variances that
we’re granting. And I certainly don’t want to create some kind of
crazy hardship where the owner of the property needs to do some
kind of cleanup or some type of restorative work to get the
property back to where it’s legal and conforming, but that’s really
my concern. How do we make sure that if the special use permit
goes away, the property is returned to a [audio cuts out]
[01:15:35] conforming state?
Ken: Well, I mean, I think that’s gonna be challenging, because in many
respects, the variances are gonna be what makes it legal in the first
place. And if the variances expire, the ability of those exceptions
will expire with it.
Joe Longoria: Right.
Ken: They’re gone as well.
Joe Longoria: So, just to give an example, if one of the variances allows for a
building to go up into a buffer area, that because of the variance,
the buffer area doesn’t exist, the special use permit goes away. The
variances go away. And now we’ve got a building in a buffer area.
Ken: Well, I mean, if we’re talking about allowing permanent
improvements and a special use permit that is ephemeral, which is
exactly what I think is being discussed, that’s a real [audio cuts
out] [01:16:28] challenge.
Joe Lockwood Would that be a grandfathered bill, then, if it was in the buffer
then?
Ken Jarrard Well, that gets into the whole reason why I’m struggling with the
notion of a use permit that expires, for that very reason, is because
if you incentivize one to go ahead and make permanent
improvements with respect to a use permit or some sort of a city-
based authorization that can expire, then that gets a little bit dicey,
because I think the odds of, for instance, a court requiring a
building to come down that’s already up, some permanent
improvement for which there was a lot of money spent – it’s gonna
be challenging for us. So, I think that’s something that you all need
to think about as we’re going forward this evening, and thinking
about whether you want to allow this use at all, or the parameters
upon which you want to allow it and the number of variances.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
29
Joe Longoria Well, obviously, that’s not really my intent. My intent is to protect
the applicant from doing something that will come back and cause
hardship later. And it also gets to the idea that we should pay
special attention to any allowance that we give in an area like a
buffer area or a setback area.
Ken: I concur completely.
Joe Longoria Because it could have more impact than we’re considering.
Ken: You could make the property, yes, a mess.
Joe Longoria: Okay. All right. Let’s see here. No, that’s all I got right now,
Carter. Thank you.
Carter Lucas: Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Anybody else before we hear public comment? Obviously,
we’ll have time for questions after that. So, I’ll open it up. Fist of
all, Sudie, I see you’ve got a big stack of cards there.
Approximately how many cards do you have?
Sudie Gordon: Approximately, I have a grand total of 112 on one side and 103 on
the other, so we’re looking at 215.
Joe Lockwood: 215. And I think everybody here respects, if you do the math,
that’s what – if you had a minute per person, that’s three hours, I
think? So, our typical, we have 10 minutes each side. Obviously,
we – and I think I speak for the council – I believe everybody
wants to give everybody an opportunity to speak. So, we’re gonna
have to come up with some process here with that many. I’m
willing to allow a reasonable amount of time to hopefully fit
everybody that wants to speak, time to speak. But we’re gonna
have to monitor that, and we may have to alter it a little bit.
Peyton Jamison Mayor, are we gonna do a per minute – are we gonna do a time
limit per person, or are we just gonna have an open?
Joe Lockwood: Well, we’ll have an open time, but then we’d like to tie it to the
minute. In this process, we don’t have a time per person. In work
sessions, we do, but not in this. But again, if we had 100 speakers
and we had 100 minutes, I’d like to ask everybody to try to fit
within the minute as close as possible. I’m gonna go ahead and just
suggest, and we may have to change it, but maybe we add 60
minutes of comment per side.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
30
Peyton Jamison How many cards are there?
Joe Lockwood: There’s 215, so.
Peyton Jamison Well, it’ll be extended.
Joe Lockwood: It will be extended, but we can – if council wants, we could add . .
. Yeah, I would agree. We probably – 90 to 120 minutes per side.
Peyton Jamison: I just want to make sure we get this – if someone comes and
they’re just automatically at the back of the list, they just don’t get
to speak? I mean, that’s why I was –
Joe Lockwood: No, no. I mean, we have the opportunity to let them speak. If you
want to be this guy that says, no, you can’t speak . . .
Peyton Jamison: No. I’m just always saying the people up front always get all the
time they want, and the people in the back simply don’t.
Joe Lockwood: Well, we’re gonna have to monitor and ask the audience to have
respect for those that would like to speak, so. Rick?
Rick Mohrig: What were the cards again, Sudie, for and against?
Sudie Gordon: I can split all this up. In support, there’s 27 people that want to
speak. There’s 24 public comment cards that I need to read into the
record.
Joe Lockwood: Oh, I’m sorry.
Sudie Gordon: And then there’re 60 names of people that were emailed, so.
Joe Lockwood: I’m sorry. Okay. So, how many comment cards of people that want
to speak?
Sudie Gordon: So, just to speak is 27 in support, and in just opposition is 37 to
speak.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I’m gonna open it back up to say 60 minutes.
Rick Mohrig: Yup, sounds good.
Ken Jarrard: Mr. Mayor, we do need a motion so we can [crosstalk] [01:21:12]
both sides.
Joe Lockwood: Right. So, I’m gonna ask for a motion to allow 60 minutes on each
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
31
side in support or opposing.
Peyton Jamison: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion to second for 60 minutes on each side. All
in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That’s unanimous. All right, Sudie. So, we’ll start
out with those that are speaking in support of this application. If
you would please call the first speaker.
Sudie Gordon: First speaker is Curtis Mills. Curtis Mills.
Curtis Mills: Good evening. I think the mike is on. Can you hear me?
Joe Lockwood: Sure, yes.
Curtis Mills: I’m Curtis Mills. I live at 16355 Birmingham Highway. My office
is at 15800 Birmingham Highway. That’s the Crossroads. And I’m
the owner of the property across the street, the old Buice store. I
understand we’re gonna be time challenged, and I don’t really
know how to time box myself on the introduction. I was gonna try
to go five, six minutes. Lots of material to cover. So, I’m gonna
move quickly, and I’m gonna hope that you all will ask detailed
questions. I have a lot of material – sound test, parking, site plan
revisions, etc., etc. So, with that said, I’d like to introduce Scott
Reese, our site engineer; Mary Jane and Mark Potter, the owners of
Matilda’s; and is Danny Eson here? Danny’s here. The sound
engineer. They’ll all be available for Q&A. When we get to that
point, we’ll all come up together and deal with that.
Before I get started, I’d like to thank specifically Robyn
MacDonald. I’d been on the Planning Commission for five years,
thought I was a pretty smart guy. When I got into this, it was
stepping into a bucket, and I didn’t have a clue. Were it not for
Robyn guiding me through this, or just whether I had a full-time
lawyer on staff, there’s just no way I could have gotten through it.
And I was gonna say, if you approve this, I think she ought to have
a bonus. But I’m withdrawing that and saying she ought to get a
bonus either way. Robyn, I appreciate what you did.
So, my discussion topics are gonna be limited to a few of staff’s
recommendations, specifically the three-year renewal; a couple of
limitations on activity levels; the fence, which is, I think a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
32
scrivener error, but I’m gonna mention that; and then the
reservation of the 400-square-foot parcel on the corner of
Birmingham and Hickory Flat. Additional items, if we have time
or if you all will ask me in detail, are parking and noise,
specifically a second set of testing. We’ve done two full sets of
noise testing. I’d like to touch on that, but don’t want to waste
time.
So, our base intent is to continue Matilda’s as it is today – not to
increase it. The seating area is 50 feet deep. It’s exactly what the
seating area is today in Alpharetta. There’s 50 feet of kids’ play
area behind that, similar to what it is today. It may be exactly the
same. But if you look at the site plan, we’re self-limited from a
growth standpoint. On the north side is the power line easement.
[Audio cuts out] [01:25:21] can’t go into that. On the east side is
the property line. Can’t cross that. And then on the south side, it
just gets to be a bad angle away from what would be the stage. So,
there’s really no way, even if we were in various or whatever, to
double this thing or triple this thing. It’s self-limited.
And the only reason I say that is because Alpharetta has no caps on
usage. So, there are no number of nights in the year. There are no –
there may be hours, but that’s not an issue for us. There are no
months. There are no caps on attendance. And it is what it is. It’s
not like it’s one year old. It’s 15 years old. They have a process
burned in, and caps, and so on and so forth. So, when I talk about
opposing certain caps, it makes it sound like we want it to get
bigger. We don’t. We just want to be able to do what they’re doing
today without turning people away.
So, the arbitrary cap of 200 was based on an error that I made. And
specifically, when I talked with Mary Jane Potter about the
attendance currently, she told me 100 to 200, with an average of
150. Well, I took grad school statistics and dropped in a peak of
200, staff took that and said, well, if that’s the peak, let’s go ahead
and cap it. Well, that was the middle part of the bell curve, not the
peak. The peak’s higher. Once a year, they go 250, 275 a few
weeks ago. And they handled it in the seating area that they have
now without issue. Did no expansion, no nothing.
So, all I’m trying to do is help them not have to turn people away
that come to the gate, as they always have, to buy tickets, and then
find out that, you know what? You’re number 201. I’m afraid
you’re gonna have to go home. And it’s an arbitrary limit. So, I
would ask, if you feel that the 300 is unreasonable, because if you
do the math and extrapolate every extreme variable, it gets to be a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
33
big number, even though we have no intention of doing that, that
that be bumped up a little higher to allow for the 90 or 95% of the
performances that are right around 200, but may be above 200.
And then if there be a way once or a couple of times a year to have
a more extreme level, that’s all they’re looking for.
And the other limit was a months of operation, was put in from
April 1st to October 31st. I have no idea where that came from. I
went to the last performance in 2017. It was December 1st. So, it’s
a very unstructured operation. Admittedly, it sounds crazy that
we’re not sure what the schedule is. But they’re not sure what the
schedule is. Sometimes they don’t have any performances at all in
April. Sometimes they start at the very end of the month.
Sometimes they go into November. There’s no limit in Alpharetta.
It simply hasn’t been an issue. But if I say, could they run from
April 1st to April 30th, it makes it sound like I’m trying to expand
the program, when I’m really just trying to allow for weather. So,
I’m asking that 10/31 be extended to 11/30 to give them the
flexibility to work around weather events.
Next topic is the three-year renewal. Three years was an arbitrary
period. I don’t know it was defined. But the Atlanta Renaissance
Festival, for which all of this code was defined, rolls up a couple of
semis twice a year, folds up or sets up the tent, rolls up the eight-
foot opaque fence, operates for a month or two, or however long
they operate, throw it back in the truck, and drive to the next town.
Zero infrastructure. None. It all leaves with them. In our case, we
have a ton of infrastructure. 620 feet of landscape buffer – that’s
trees. That by itself is gonna be fairly significant site planning, site
prep, move the building. I want to put in bathrooms. In my mind,
there’s no such thing as a good Porta Potty. So, I don’t care how
clean they are. It’s still a Porta Potty.
I don’t want to be in a position where we might get shut down, and
I’m having to start looking at numbers, going, you know what? I’m
sorry, I know it’s awful, but we can’t rationalize stranded assets.
And if you know where it is on the site, it’s sort of back in the
woods. What am I gonna do with some standalone bathrooms that
become an attractive nuisance to – not that we have any teenagers
in Milton that would go drink beer back there. But I got a problem
if they shut it down. What am I gonna do with the facilities? It’s
similar to the comment about what do you do with a structure if
you shut it down.
So, in my mind, and I’ve done the math, it’s the most legitimate
financial hardship on here. You could say, well, if it’s too much
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
34
money, you shouldn’t do it. Fine. I agree. But that’s the reason I
asked for the variance. It just doesn’t make any sense. In three
years, I would not have recouped the capital cost to put it into
place. And we’d probably have to cut corners. So, no other
business startups would have that type of sunset clause. I don’t
know how you measure it. You all are perfectly rational, really
bright, good-looking.
But in three years – I’m sorry, I shouldn’t joke. In three years, six
years – who knows who’s sitting here, right? Let’s say – I know
you’re not gonna be able to imagine this, but maybe they don’t like
me. And they shut it down on a whim. How can we perform, how
can we ensure that we’re operating acceptably to continue
operation? There’s no measurement. There are no objectives. And
I don’t even really see how it’s legal to do something like that. But
I just don’t think it’s reasonable to be at risk. If they were a brand
new business, I could see it. They’re not. They’ve been in
operation 15 years, and we know what we’re getting.
The 54-inch four-board fence, this is a minor issue. It also says to
the height of the neighbor’s fence. It used to be five feet. The
McCurry’s four-board fence is around four feet. It varies from
place to place. All I asked for was that we match that so that it
doesn’t look stupid. So, maybe it’s 54 inches in some spots. Maybe
it’s more or less. I’m asking that that verbiage be modified to
match the height of the McCurry’s fence so it looks like it’s all tied
together, which was the intention.
Lastly, the miter parcel on the corner of Birmingham Highway and
Hickory Flat, appreciate the modification from taking the property
to reserving it, which I understand is done in some rezoning
efforts, but this is not a rezoning. This is a special use permit. I’m
not telling you anything you don’t know, but I don’t think it’s
appropriate at all to take anything from me on an unrelated piece of
land, and taking – it could be rights that I could use that parcel for.
I just don’t think it makes any sense. And also notice, the
reservation is forever, but the use permit may be for three years. It
doesn’t make sense to me. I’m a Georgia grad, but it doesn’t make
sense to me.
So, that’s my – I would ask that that be removed, because it’s not a
rezoning, and it’s not a taking of property like it read previously, in
my opinion. But I don’t think I should be burdened with advance
approval of selling that parcel to someone. I mean, I think maybe
somebody ought to go buy the southeast corner while it’s for sale,
and we wouldn’t have an issue.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
35
With that, I’ll wrap up. I have more material, but I’ll save it for
Q&A if you’d like.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Mills. Sudie, if you would please call the
next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Mr. Kurt Nolte.
Kurt Nolte: Good evening. Kurt Nolte, 825 Dockbridge Way, Milton, Georgia.
Thank you, Mayor and City Council. And I’m here to support the
addition of a music venue, specifically Matilda’s, to the city of
Milton. I’ve been in front of City Council before, and I’m
consistent in trying to maintain and preserve the quality of life we
have up here. And therefore, there are some real reasons that I
needed to be answered before I could fully support moving
Matilda’s to the Birmingham Crossroads. These were specifically
parking. Now, I understand it’s a non-issue with the latest park for
200 vehicles.
Noise level for neighbors. I understand also, a number of noise
level tests were recently performed, and it’s well within the
acceptable limits of 85 decibels, and that the cars and trucks cause
more noise than Matilda would at their lot lines. Traffic also, I
consider this a non-issue. With an 8:30 start time, it’s well after
rush hour on Friday, and of course, there’s no rush hour on
Saturday.
I do believe this will actually add much-needed activity and
commerce to the Birmingham Crossroads. The removal of the
three-year review with the unnecessary hardships imposed by the
city for the infrastructure improvements, a three-year window to
recoup those investments seems unreasonable to me. The 200/300-
person capacity and number of events a month. With enough space
and ample parking, the 300-person limit seems appropriate. 250,
300 persons seems appropriate. Having been to Matilda’s
numerous times, I can assure you that the basic attraction is the
quaint setting, the bringing in of lesser-known songwriters and
artists. And along with the unpredictable weather, this is something
that I see as fairly self-governing.
Our neighbor to the north, Woodstock, understands the value a
music venue adds to their community and has gone as far as to
invest hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money to fill
this void. The city of Milton has Matilda’s asking, almost begging
for the opportunity to provide us with the same type of cultural
attraction, with no real impact to our citizens. Please keep in mind
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
36
through all this discussion and everything that we’re talking about
a business that, A, wants to move to Milton, and B, we’re talking
about 16 to 24 hours a month of operation. It just seems crazy
[audio cuts out] [01:37:11], and I can’t see the hardship to the city
of Milton and its citizens. I encourage you to approve the addition
of Matilda’s to our great city. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is William Soldan.
William Soldan: Good evening. My name is William Soldan. I live at 325
Hermitage Trail, Sable Point Subdivision. And I’ve been going to
Matilda’s for 15 years. I’m a season ticketholder. I’m a big – I love
the arts. I love the music. It’s not hard rock’n’roll that they’re
bringing into this facility. Have any of you people been to
Matilda’s, or? It’s a question. Okay. Okay. Good. Well, I’ll just –
Joe Lockwood: Excuse me one second, just to break in. But yeah, this is public
comment, but there’s not Q&A. Thank you.
William Soldan: Okay. Just curious. Okay. Well, since time is limited, I just want to
say that basically, as a season ticketholder, I try to sit in the front
row every concert, because as Curtis Mills said, you can have a
conversation and listen to music. Well, I like to listen to the music.
And you can hear a lot of discussion and background. So, anyway,
I just want to say that the music is not real loud. I think this area
needs something like Matilda’s. For me, I always have to travel to
Alpharetta or Roswell to go to dine. I think that area is very – I
mean, they have Publix, but everything else is not very attractive.
So, I think it would be a good plus to have Matilda’s there. Thank
you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: Mr. Scott Glazer.
Scott Glazer: Scott Glazer, 1735 Peachtree Street, 30309. Folks, I’m a native of
Fulton County and a professional musician. I’ve pla yed around the
world and have deep roots in the Crabapple community. In the
1970s, I was in a group based not even a mile from Birmingham
Road, on the Talbat property, and as well, in another group based
on Stroupe Road in Roswell. In both of these groups, we regularly
welcomed members of the community to come over and enjoy the
music, and in many instances, to participate in singing the songs.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
37
As you know, music is a great common denominator, bridging age,
culture, and other differences. And in our experience, we found
wonderful moments of endearing fellowship in the Crabapple
community through the playing of music. As we have seen our
neighbors to the south in Sandy Springs spend $180 million on the
new City Springs, Milton can offer what they cannot – outdoor
concerts in a bucolic setting, not costing the taxpayer a dime. Just
the opposite. These performances bring revenue and make for a
special social and cultural gathering for those in the community
and visitors.
I’ve performed at Matilda’s in Alpharetta and know it to be a
venue long recognized as an asset to the community. As far as
concert venues go, Matilda’s is as benign an endeavor as I have
seen, and its footprint is very reasonable. Matilda’s is special in
many ways. It’s comfortable, low-key, and welcoming to a broad
range of ages. The musical offerings range from bluegrass to swing
and blues. Folks, the musical offerings there will inure it to the
overall benefit of the community. I urge you to approve this
request for variance. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Wendy Smith Ozug.
Wendy Smith Ozug: Good afternoon. My name is Wendy Smith Ozug, 215 Aylsford
Court in Milton. I’m not only a Milton resident; I’m also a small
business owner in Milton. And my husband and I recently moved
here from Milwaukee about a year ago. Now, the city I lived in up
north was a Gibson guitar town city, and we loved going to hear
live music. So, we were so blessed to have found Matilda’s right
after we moved in. We moved in last May. So, they had just started
their new season. And we have been frequent supporters of
Matilda’s.
And I’ve gotten to know Mary Jane and Mark throughout the last
few months. And they do bring a sense of community, not only
bringing the arts to the people, but they’re bringing a sense of
community by bringing people that love music together. And when
you’re sitting in the venue – which is so unique, it’s like nothing
I’ve ever seen before – you look around and you see couples. You
see families with children. You see intergenerational families. So,
with grandparents and parents and children, kids running around
playing. It’s so serene.
Any time we have company come, we always make sure to bring
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
38
them to Matilda’s, because everyone should experience Matilda’s.
And I would hate to see Matilda’s go away. It has been a blessing
in our lives. I know it’s been a blessing in so many other people’s
lives. And Mary Jane and Mark are an asset to the community and
bring that community spirit. So, I would just love for Matilda’s to
stay around. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Shawn Bergeron.
Shawn Bergeron: Good evening. For the record, my name’s Shawn Bergeron from
Alpharetta, Georgia. For the record, I’d like to read my sticker in
to the record, please. It says, “I love and support Matilda’s.”
Joe Lockwood: Sean, do you mind just giving your address, just for the record?
Shawn Bergeron: Oh, 7307 Masters Way.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you.
Shawn Bergeron: I’ve been attending Matilda’s for four years. I’ve been 20 to 25 of
their shows and of their concerts. I know what happens at these
shows, and I know what does not happen at these shows. And I
personally know the patterns and the proprietors at Matilda’s and
love them dearly [audio cuts out] [01:44:13] what they brought to
Alpharetta for so many years. I want to give you – this is a bait and
switch. That’s what I heard. That’s what I read when the
opposition stated in their blogs and email blasts about Mary and
Jane, or Mark and Mary Jane Potter. A bait and switch.
Some of you have not met these folks yet. They’re gonna be up
here shortly again for the Q&A with Curtis. And when you look at
them, I want you to think – to seem impossible these people have
ever baited and switched anybody in their entire lives. These are
genuine folks that love music, love the culture of music. And they
do it in such a unique way. It’s so special. And that’s just one of
the ridiculous statements, deceptions, exaggerations, and fear-
mongering that’s been [audio cuts out] [01:45:02] by the
opposition, particularly Mr. Becker and Ms. Bailey.
It’s a shame. In their blogs and email blasts. It’s a shame that they
have such an immense power with that email blast list and the blog
that’s done under the – I think the Coalition of Milton name, that
they use it to distort the facts when they don’t get their way, like
they didn’t get it at the Planning Commission. And that’s exactly
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
39
what they’ve done here. That’s probably why most of the
opposition is here today, because they read that stuff in those
emails and blogs as fact, when in fact, it’s editorial that’s been put
together to advance their own personal political agenda because
they didn’t get their way at the Planning Commission.
They were actually for it at the Planning Commission meeting. But
when they didn’t get their way, they withdrew and went on a – I
mean, a burn path to destroy this application. I don’t even think it’s
about Matilda’s anymore. I think it’s about them trying to legislate
what happens in this room from back there and not being an
elected official. They turned this into a political football. It
should’ve never got this far. In all honesty, guys, we shouldn’t
even be here. This shouldn’t be even – the reason it’s in this single
use permit position is because at some point early on, when Milton
was being formed, with all due respect to you guys, they didn’t
prepare. They didn’t envision that there would be a business of this
nature. If they would, it would be in the code somewhere.
So, it ends up in this single use permit thing, which is reserved
basically for carnivals and circuses. And that’s not what this is.
This is a going concern. It’s been going – great civic community
citizens over there in Alpharetta for 15 years without exception.
One of the other things that was said about Matilda’s that was in
one of the blogs or the emails – I think it was repeated in the email
as well – it says, this 300-plus or 300 patrons each week, which is
an exaggeration. They knew that it’s not 300. That was the cap.
And that wasn’t the average or the people that would show up
every week. They knew that. But that didn’t serve their purpose.
So, they said that that’s gonna bring in crime, right? Drunk and
disorderly people, and these 300 people are gonna bring in crime,
okay? And is that really true? Well, I looked this up. You know
how many times the police have been summoned to Matilda’s in
15 years of concerts for drunk and disorderly patrons? I’ll tell you.
The same amount of times that the police have been summoned to
Mr. Becker’s house for drunk and disorderly patrons. Zero.
Ken Jarrard: Mr. Chairman, I think you just need to make sure that you’re not
calling out individuals.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah, let’s not mention anybody’s name personally.
Shawn Bergeron: Okay. But guys, this is what I’m – let me close with this. It’s my
understanding that the Council, like the Planning Commission did,
has the authority to approve this permit in the way that the
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
40
Planning Commission did, including the removal of the
burdensome sunset clause. And if and only if they can show
restriction of undue hardship and backed by overwhelming
community support. Or. It’s not an “and.” But I think we could
even change that to an “and,” and you’ve have both of those litmus
tests met tonight. I thank you for your time. Good luck, and
godspeed.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Marty Lock.
Marty Lock: Hi, Marty Lock, 14140 Freemanville Road in the great city of
Milton. We have a lot of examples of other cities who are doing
things that we should probably be doing as well. I’ve got some
things here from the recent Georgia Cities publication, with a few
articles relevant to our current situation regarding the possibility of
moving Matilda’s to Milton.
Officials in some cities are recognizing that entertaining their
residents and visitors has the potential to heighten community
value and possibly lead to an economic boom. In Springfield, a
resurrected entertainment venue has had a pronounced impact on
the small town. Being open every weekend with scheduled
programming is crucial to the venue’s success, the city manager
emphasized. It needs to be open on a regular basis and have active
regular programming, or it won’t have the economic impact
everybody’s looking for. He went on to say that the local
businesses recognize there’s a market they can capitalize on and
generate a demand for their products around the scheduled
activities.
Augusta’s Community Outreach Director Tonia Gibbons said the
entertainment venues in her city provide residents with a variety of
live, work, and play enhancements. To tout an area as a place for
people who want to work, live, play, and to raise a family, you
have to offer things people want to do in your city. Locals and out-
of-towners alike who attend the events spend money at the
restaurants, hotels, local transportation, and more.
Kendra Briechle, the Community and Economic Development
Manager for the Conservation Fund, tells us how communities that
capitalize on their natural recreation and cultural heritage can
attract new businesses and residents, increase price of place, create
jobs that can’t be exported, and increase community health through
active living and outdoor recreation. Millennials and CEOs alike
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
41
[audio cuts out] [01:51:09] in communities with great natural and
cultural assets. The Fund has worked nationwide in over 300
communities to help towns and cities realize that striking a balance
between [audio cuts out] [01:51:19] commerce attracts businesses
and residents, and assures a stronger quality of life.
The city of Porterdale intentionally focuses on its natural
surroundings, and the triad of preservation, the arts, and outdoor
recreation. We need to look forward and find a way to embrace
this unique opportunity to do something special for Milton.
Matilda’s at the Crossroads would be a wonderful asset to our city.
Thank you, guys.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Mindy Jones.
Mindy Jones: Mindy Jones, 11870 Little Creek Crossing, Alpharetta. First of all,
I cannot imagine any venue being more Milton-esque than
Matilda’s. I’ve lived in Alpharetta for 35 years. Matilda’s has been
here for 15 years. And I just found out about Matilda’s four years
ago. It’s definitely the best-kept secret in Alpharetta. My fiancé
and I have been going to Matilda’s, avid Matilda-goers, since we
found out about it four years ago. It’s been our go-to place most
every Saturday night. When we have out-of-town guests, we
always take them. And when they go home, it’s always the
highlight of their trip. The memories we’ve created there are some
of our favorites.
As much as I hate to see Alpharetta lose Matilda’s, this is a great
opportunity for Milton to steal a gem that we’ve had in Alpharetta
for 15 years now. The Birmingham Crossroads is the perfect
setting for this. For the most part, five or six days a week, there’s
gonna be nothing here except a new fence and some other aesthetic
improvements that the applicant has agreed to make. If you want to
get an idea of what locals think about Matilda’s moving to the
Crossroads, check out Steve Beacham Beachwalk’s Facebook
interview with Curtis Mills just nine days ago. It has already
received over 18,500 views as of 2:00 today, 342 likes, 296
comments. Not one comment was in opposition to Matilda’s at the
Crossroads. Let me read you a few of the comments.
Cynthia: “Yay, love this idea! Outdoor concerts. Cannot wait.”
Karen: “If you’ve been to Matilda’s, you know there will be no
city feel. Perfect venue. Hope everyone goes to the city council
meeting to encourage them to sign the dotted line.” Suzy: “I’m
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
42
excited. I hope all of my Milton neighbors will show up at the
meeting and support this.” Alicia: “This is awesome. Great
addition to Milton.” Joe: “You should definitely bring in some
blues musicians. Perfect venue. Please approve this, Milton.”
For those of you that are familiar with Facebook, you know that
you can share a post, and you only share a post where you like the
subject and you believe in the subject, because it’s gonna be on
your timeline. In the last nine days, there have been four
Beachwalk Facebook videos. There have been 224 shares. 221 of
them, all but three of them. were the interview of Matilda’s. To
me, that sounds like overwhelming community support. And I ask
you to support the recommendations set forth by the Milton City
Planning Commission. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, will you please call the next speaker?
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Jan Lock.
Jan Lock: Good evening. My name is Jan Lock. I live at 14140 Freemanville
Road, Milton. I’ve been attending concerts at Milton’s [sic] for
about five or six years now. And if you’ve ever been there, you
know how low-key, casual, entertaining, and affordable it is. Guys,
we need some affordable entertainment in Milton. It’s a great
evening out as a date night, a bunch of friends getting together, or
family time. I’m totally in favor of the move to Milton. In fact, I
cannot wait to have Milton [sic] within two miles of me. Thank
you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, will you please call the next speaker?
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Emmy Powell.
Amy Powell: Good evening, Council. Emmy Powell, 325 Quayside Court,
[audio cuts out] [01:56:15] Estates in Milton. I have lived here for
nearly 10 years, and it takes me two to three minutes to get to the
Birmingham Crossroads. I’ve watched businesses come and go
there, always hoping that the area would take off and thrive. But
that hasn’t happened yet. I’m in favor of this because we now have
a business owner who has a good idea to add a music venue that
everyone throughout the city can enjoy.
We keep hearing negatives about dangerous legal precedents. If
you want to talk about what’s dangerous, how about asking a small
business owner to invest thousands of dollars to do something
good for the community, only to have a council that could flip in
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
43
three years have the ability to come back and shut it down? You
don’t do that with other local business owners. So, that is a
precedent that could have a big chilling effect on new small
business in the city of Milton going forward.
I believe that you were elected to act on behalf, on all of our
behalf, as good and bad ideas are presented to you. This seems like
a really good idea. Use your common sense. Don’t ever forget that
over 35,000 people in the city of Milton are counting on you, not
just the few who speak for or against the issue. Do what’s best for
the city of Milton. That is your job. And I thank all of you for your
service.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Doug McCurry.
Doug McCurry: Mayor, Council, I am the McCurry that’s in the picture, and in the
Beachwalk thing, I’m the one guy that lives next door. So –
Joe Lockwood: Mr. McCurry, just for the record, would you mind just stating your
name and address for the record?
Doug McCurry: Sure. My name is Doug McCurry, and my wife Char and I live at
830 Hickory Flat Road in the home my grandparents built and on
property that’s been in my family for over a hundred years. The
property owner discussion is directly next door. I’ve lived in the
Birmingham community since 1980, and I’ve seen it grow from a
simple crossroads with a general store specializing in feed, seed,
farm implements to a bustling, often congested hub in Milton
hosting picturesque horse farms and high end residential real
estate. Virtual all of the other family farms have disappeared, and
highly sought after subdivisions, which are served by a small but
adequate commercial area, have taken their place.
Char and I were both witness and among a concerted and dedicated
group who helped shape the transformation of the Birmingham
Crossroads. We were original members of the BHA, which is the
Birmingham Hopewell Alliance; members of the Birmingham
Master Planning process, as well as other community committees.
We’ve worked closely with Fulton County and the county staff and
the original developer of the northeast and southwest corners to
support the development and to further various community-centric
concerns, which included saving from demolition our historic
treasures, which were the 19th century homes on the southwest
corner.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
44
The overall development now not only meets critical needs of the
community, but it also serves as a point of pride as to what the
community accomplished. I say all this not to review recent history
or to highlight our involvement, but to note that as close neighbors
to the Crossroads, we have embraced the shape of things to our
area and feel that the whole community is better for it. Now, the
southeast corner appears ready for development. And my neighbor
in the northwest corner is changing as well. Curtis Mills, the owner
and a longtime friend of mine, is turning the old store into a
restaurant, and through this effort tonight, endeavoring to bring a
music venue to the property as well.
From the get-go, Curtis has involved my wife, myself. We took
walks, met Mary Jane and met her husband, looking at site – where
things could be set up. And after the review, and the walks, and the
discussion, help from staff, and as technically outlined, I think I
may have written a letter earlier on some of the caveats from what
– on the setbacks. But what we asked for was that the commercial
standard for the non-activity zone of 60 feet be applied to our east
part property line and allow the facility to encroach 10 feet if
necessary for the ambience of the performance. We support this
variance plus the other variances being considered.
We support the concept of the venue. We feel that it will be an
artistic focus for the good of the overall community. We also
realize that parking could be a challenge on the northwest parcel
and trust that concerted concerns and actions will be taken to
ensure the traffic does not encroach down the eastern side of the
60-foot non-activity zone. We feel that through the combined
efforts of ourselves, Curtis, Mary Jane, the proprietor, coupled
with the professional guidance of Milton staff, that this and any
future issue that may arise can be readily resolved.
And I would just like to add that Mary Jane, they were out doing
some sound tests the other night, and we were inside for a while.
Did not hear a thing. Walked out. You could hear it from our deck,
which is again about 400 feet from where the building will be. And
it was not at all disarming or anything else. It was very pleasant.
So, we do support it and ask for y’all’s consideration too. Thank
you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you, sir. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Debby Johnson.
Debby Johnson: Council, thank you for your time. Appreci ate the Planning
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
45
Commission’s efforts just to explain all this to us. And I have a
few notes that I’ve just written real quick.
Joe Lockwood: Ms. Johnson, if you wouldn’t mind, just state your name and
address just for the record. Just technicalities.
Debby Johnson: Sorry about that. Debby Johnson. And my address is 770 Colonial
Lane. I’ve lived in Milton since before it was Milton, so. Happy to
be here. Let’s see. Lost myself. My husband and I have attended
Matilda’s for years. We’ve taken our family, our friends, and just
really enjoy the quaint and unique atmosphere that it offers. The
times that we’ve been there, there’s been about 150 people there.
Very comfortable. Kids running around, couples, girls – just girls
groups, families. Super comfortable. You can bring your food. You
can bring your coolers. And always safe, very casual.
And I love the – well, I think my favorite thing is the stage,
because it’s a shed. And the thought of calling it a building is
really literally – you could almost put it in my pickup truck. It’s
that small. Just strings of colored lights. I just really do think that
it’s exactly what our city is and speaks to a need of community. I
think we need a place to be. I think we need a place to gather. I
applaud Sue’s efforts in the beach bash and the little festivals that
we have here and there. But this is a regular thing. This is
something that’s gonna be there, and that we can just get together
and we can see each other. And I just think it’s a great way to build
community. So, I thank you for your time, and I just ask that you
approve it. And I applaud everybody’s effort in this and throughout
the whole process.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Tammy Soldan.
Tammy Soldan: Greetings. Tammy Soldan, 325 Hermitage Trail, Milton. My
husband and I moved to unincorporated Alpharetta 17 years ago.
We built a home, and we started a small business. We are patrons
of Matilda’s for many years. We’re season ticket holders. And all
the years of going to Matilda’s, the parking has never – we’ve
never had any problems with the Alpharetta police, needing them
for directing traffic or any kind of situation for crowd control. I’m
not knowledgeable about sound decibels, but I do know that the
big house that was on the property is about 50 feet from the stage,
and one could hardly hear the music or feel it when you were
inside the building.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
46
The Potters are fulfilling their retirement in an alternative way.
They seek to remain engaged in their community where they have
family ties, and they wish to continue as art advocates in this area.
Mary Jane Potter has an excellent reputation with the city of
Alpharetta, as well as the Alpharetta Chamber of Commerce, as a
small businesswoman enterprise and art advocate, as well as a
music promoter for various Alpharetta festivities. Matilda’s is a
women-owned enterprise offering other female entrepreneurs and
musicians opportunities to explore profit and success within a
small business environment.
Kathy Anne Kessler – she’s here the evening, and I hope she’ll
come up and talk. But she’s an established artist working within
the Matilda’s environment to successfully execute her talent as a
designer and a stylist to musicians from all over the country. And
her business is called the Galleria of Matilda. I applaud Alpharetta
for supporting all these great small business owners.
I’m aware of the Comprehensive Growth Plan for the city of
Milton, and growth always brings growing pains, which can be
difficult for some residents. But as a small business owner, I see
the benefits of developing the Birmingham corners. The music
venue will stimulate profit and revenue to the already established
restaurants and merchants while maintaining a park-like green
space for an indefinite amount of time. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is David Smith.
David Smith: Hi, my name is David Smith, and I reside at 8608 Main Street in
Woodstock. And I used to have a business across the street from
Matilda’s for about five years. And it’s kind of funny, because the
first two years that I was there, I didn’t know that they had
concerts over there. And when I found out that there was, the only
time that I’d hear music, when – like I said, my business was
across the street. The only time that I’d hear music coming from
that place is when I stepped outside and stood on the grass
overlooking where Matilda’s was. So, it’s not a loud venue that
pops out a lot of sound. I mean, I can throw a rock about two times
from where I stood in front of my business, and that’s how close it
was.
They never had any kind of – I mean, my business was open seven
days a week. And in the five years that I was there, I never saw any
sirens. I did up and down Highway 9 all the time, but not any
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
47
sirens or anybody that went over there that had to break up
anything at the shows that they had.
I’ve been driving from the Alpharetta area – well, my business
now is in Woodstock. But I drive from that area up to Comian,
where I live, where my other residence is. And I travel through the
intersection where this venue’s going in. And I travel it seven days
a week, sometimes five, because I like to take a day off every now
and then to go fishing. But I travel it often. And that time in the
evening, I usually travel through there about 7:00 or 8:00 or so in
the evening. So, when I do travel that area, there’s only several
cars in front of me, if any, when we pull up to a stop sign. So, i n
my opinion, it’s not an area that is very busy with traffic as it is.
The other thing I’d like to mention is, Matilda’s is – they’re owned
by – they’re a small business entity that’s trying to survive. And
myself, being across the street from them, I had a business, and we
survived the recession. And it was hell for a lot of small
businesses. And I don’t know if I can put that language in the tape,
but I already did, so oh well. She is very dedicated to the arts, with
art, with music, with the enjoyment of people that come to her
establishment. And her bands play, and the music that’s set up, I
mean, it’s very family-oriented. It’s a great alternative. It’s like a
large picnic. And it’s an enjoyable establishment. And I support
the move for them to wind up in Milton. I think it would be a really
good decision. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you, sir. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Heath Cashin.
Heath Cashin: My name is Heath Cashin, and I live at 1399 Liberty Grove Road,
Alpharetta. And I just wanted to say – everybody’s kind of covered
all this, but it’s funky, charming. It’s awesome, it’s cultural, it’s
family-friendly, promotes community. You get to know your
neighbors. And there can’t be too much family-friendly music.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you.
Heath Catchen: So, I vote yes.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Okay. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Debra Harper.
Debra Harper: Good evening, esteemed councilmembers, Mr. Mayor. I’m Debra
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
48
Harper, 15420 Treyburn Manor View in Milton. And I’m here to
speak in enthusiastic and unequivocal support of Curtis Mill’s
application for a use permit and all nine of his variances. None of
those give me fundamental heartburn. One thing, I love Matilda’s
as well. And what no one else has mentioned is it’s magical. And
it’s a great venue. It’s very fitting with the spirit of Milton. That
particular piece of property has challenges with the power lines
going through it and so forth. And I think that its owner’s done a
really remarkable job of finding a win-win for the business owners,
for the property owner, and for the community. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Steve Hooper.
Steve Hooper: Hi. Steve Hooper, 761 Eagles Mirror Court. I just want to say that
– and I’ve heard a lot of it up here this evening. I know that many
of you haven’t been there. Matilda’s is a treasure. It’s magical, and
it is a treasure. So, it is Alpharetta’s loss. It is Milton’s gain. And
matter of fact, I would think that Milton should be begging
Matilda’s to come there. It’s that good. Over the years, I’ve
introduced probably 50 to 100 people to Matilda’s, and they in turn
have gone over and bought a lot of stuff from the people that are
there, plus participated. So, it is a phenomenal venue. It’s a model
venue. It’s a first class venue.
Mark and Mary Jane are the classiest people on the planet. I’m not
kidding you. They are [audio cuts out] [02:14:46] that testimony
tonight. They’ve never violated rules. They’ve never been late.
I’ve gone there a lot of times with pretty high-level people. These
things are always over at 10:30. There’s never been inebriated
people. There’s never been any drugs that I could smell or detect. I
mean, they are absolutely amazing. And the venue is something
that would be a real, real nice attraction to us here in Milton. So, I
would clearly recommend approval. Thanks.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you could please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Senator Brandon Beach.
Brandon Beach: Brandon Beach, 3100 Briar [audio cuts out] [02:15:33]. Thank
you for having me tonight. I’m just here to speak in favor of
Matilda’s coming to Milton. I will tell you that my wife and I go
there. We’ve been going there about five years. And I agree with
everything everybody said, so I won’t repeat that. It’s funky, it’s
cool, it’s a great place to listen to music. But more importantly, it’s
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
49
a great place to go with friends. And you meet friends, and a lot of
my friends in the audience, I see them there when I go. But it’s
also affordable, and that’s what I like.
When you look at North Fulton, we have the Verizon Wireless
Amphitheater. They have some great concerts and great music, but
it’s expensive. Or you look at Johns Creek, and they have the Mark
Berculture Amphitheater. And two weeks ago, I went to a concert
on a Saturday night there. It was a Fleetwood Mac-type band. And
so, I asked Mark, I said, “Who pays for this?” He says, “The
taxpayers. They budget money in to bring bands in.” Here, you
have a unique opportunity to not use taxpayer funds, but have a
music venue. And I really believe music brings the community
together. And I will tell you, just to echo what everybody said,
Mark and Mary Jane, they are great, first class folks that run a first
class venue.
So, I would ask you to look at this, because I really would say this
to – I’ll tell a story. Most of y’all know I do economic
development for a living. And I was touring a prospect around, all
around the North Fulton area – Alpharetta, Milton. And one of the
comments they made, they said, “These are some beautiful
buildings you have here. Avalon and City Hall,” this City Hall
when we drove b y. And I said, “You know, it is. We do have some
beautiful buildings.” I said, “But this community, it’s the
community about the people, not bricks and mortar.” So, I said,
“That’s what makes this community special, is the people.” And I
think you have an opportunity to have Matilda’s come to Milton
and bring the community together to listen to some good music at
an affordable price, and I would urge you to say yes to this
application. Thank you very much.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you very much. Sudie, if you’d please call the next
speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Michelle Onians. And I am in position of an
affidavit. She will be representing Hopewell Place Subdivision.
Michelle Onians: Hi. Thank you for taking the time to hear us all out. My name is
Michelle Onians. My husband and I live at Hopewell Place
Subdivision at 910 Hopewell Place, which is in Milton. I’ve lived
in Atlanta for 17 years, and my husband and I and our kids – well,
our daughter’s now 23 and our son’s 11 – we’ve been going to
Matilda’s for over a decade. We already knew several of the
musicians that play there prior to them being booked at Matilda’s,
and we’ve become personal friends with Mary Jane and Mark.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
50
They’re amazing people. Everything that everybody has said is
true times 10. They’re charitable. They care about people. They
care about music and the arts, and they support local businesses.
Matilda’s offers the local community an exceptionally unique
outdoor music experience, but it’s so much more. Matilda’s is a
come as you are landing pad to relax and unwind. It is a romantic
date night evening. It’s a family-friendly inexpensive night out.
Kids are free, so no babysitting fees. A special occasion
destination. You see birthday parties there, girls night outs, and
most nights, an audience-bonding dance party. Everybody gets
together and just shakes their tail feathers.
The best thing about all the things that I’ve said is that Matilda’s is
one of the only places on earth where all of these events and
reasons that people come together can coexist so harmoniously.
It’s really special. Matilda’s concert schedule is one of the first
places we check when planning our weekends and where to take
our out of town visitors. We have hosted family, local friends, and
many international business associates here, and all have been
more than delighted.
I’ll share a personal story about one of those visits. When
Hurricane Irma hit South Florida, we brought the family that
stayed in our home to Matilda’s, and they could not believe how
much it made them forget their worries in Miami. They absolutely
loved the relaxing environment and how friendly, courteous, and
joyful everyone sitting around them was.
The plan for Matilda’s to relocate to the new location will be a
gem for local residents and the businesses in the surrounding area,
as it will bring some of the most lovely people who may not come
that way now. The plan to have a restaurant onsite is long overdue,
since packing a picnic – and I can speak to that, because I usually
am the one that packs the picnic – is not always achievable. And
given that Chris Sedgwick is at the helm of it will ensure it is
packed both for concerts and all other nights of the week.
Last but not least, many of Atlanta’s finest musicians perform here
from a variety of genres. It’s a really amazing offering of music.
We personally will be disappointed that Matilda’s will no longer
be a bike ride away for us. However, that won’t deter us from
frequenting one of our favorite spots. And now, it’s up to you to
ensure that more folks have the opportunity to fall in love with
Matilda’s like we have. So, I ask you to support the relocation of
Matilda’s. Thank you.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
51
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Sudie, how many more cards on for support do
we have? Or speakers?
Sudie Gordon: Seven.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. We may need a couple more minutes, but will you please
call the next speaker?
Sudie Gordon: Laura Rencher.
Laura Rencher: Good evening. My name is Laura Rencher. I live at 1060
Birmingham Road. I am one of the closest neighbors to this
property. And I want to say I support it 100%. This area of our city
is rural. It’s the rural Milton area. The Crossroads has a very
specific character it’s supposed to be. I think Mr. McMurray
understands that and has done a great job preserving his home and
so forth. And he considers this venue to fit in perfectly. I also have
preserved a home and support this kind of venue. So, I don’t think
there’s any question it’s not a good place to have this venue. And
I’m not concerned at all about the noise, or the parking, or the
traffic. The traffic is at a nonpeak time, so it really doesn’t interfere
with that.
I want to address a second some of the opposition, because we
have a problem in the city with people speaking over and over
again about something called legal precedence. Every one of you
up there know that this venue does not set a legal precedent for
anything. The variances don’t set a legal precedent. Nothing sets a
legal precedent. Every variance and every zoning is considered on
its individual merits. I know you all know that. But a lot of people
don’t know it. And when you’re arguing based on legal precedent,
you are basically that if this one thing happens, there is gonna be a
catastrophe that is gonna happen to our community. That’s called a
slippery slope argument. It is a completely illogical – it’s an
illogical fallacy. It does not stand up in court, and it does not stand
up anywhere other than, unfortunately, the people who continue to
use this ridiculous argument in all of our zoning hearings.
This is why you all totally screwed up Birmingham Corners with
repealing that plan. You know it. There was no excuse for that.
Please think. This is not a legal precedent, and that wasn’t either.
Please use your brains. This is a great project. It’s gonna be great
for our city, and it’s gonna be great for the merchants there as well.
Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d – or Robyn, if you’d please call the
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
52
next speaker.
Robyn: Karen Curry.
Joe Lockwood: Is Ms. Curry here? Okay. Please call the next speaker.
Robyn: Bonnie or Terry Baker.
Joe Lockwood: Are the Bakers here?
Robyn: They must be on the other side.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah. Let’s check. All right. He’s checking on it.
Robyn: Okay. Jim Jacobi. Jim is here.
Jim Jacobi: Hello. My name is Jim Jacobi, 835 Cooper Sandy Cove, Milton,
Georgia. First, I want to say thank you for your service. Appreciate
what you do. Second, I hope you’ll agree with staff and the
Planning Commission and vote for the successful approval of this
application. I am the developer that has purchased and is
redeveloping the old Matilda site. In a situation where it would
have been very easy for the Potters to become very sour and bitter,
they weren’t. They took the high road. And it was really a good
example of their character. And I’m really looking forward to this
living in our community. I think it’ll be good for us and good for
the people and the citizens.
Let’s see here. Somebody said earlier, I think it’s the best-kept
secret in town. I think it’s no longer a secret. Between my zoning,
this application hearing, this is going to become a very successful
venue, and actually become kind of the heart and soul of this
community. So, I hope we can rally support around this and get it
approved tonight. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Robyn, if you’d please call the next
speaker.
Robyn: Dexter Edge.
Dexter Edge: Hi. Dexter Edge, 1775 Red Road. My family has been a resident of
what’s now the Milton area since 1990, a long time, and have
enjoyed seeing it grow into what it is now. But I’m tired of having
to go to Alpharetta and Roswell and other areas for food, culture,
music. I’ve been going to Matilda’s for 10 years. Love it. If you
want an idea of what Matilda’s is like, look around this room. It’s
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
53
about 200 people here. This would be a large crowd for Matilda’s.
Subtract a few adults, add a few kids, and you might have an idea
of the impact that it would have on the area. As well, I don’t think
any of us tonight are concerned about parking or traffic going
home from this meeting. It happens to be a little after 8:30 on a
weeknight. I suspect it would be a very similar impact on a Friday
evening or a Saturday evening.
As far as the noise level, for those in the audience who might not
know how sound is measured, a 10-decibel increase in sound is
twice as loud. 85 dB is, I think, more than a reasonable limit. A
lawn mower, for instance, runs 95 to 100, more than twice as loud.
A leaf blower, more than four times as loud. It’s not gonna be a
noise issue, I believe, for the area at all. And in fact, I’ll add that in
my backyard when I lived in White Columns, had similar
amplified concerts for over 10 years, and not one single noise
complaint.
The other thing that has bothered me is some of the disinformation
that’s been spread throughout this approval process. And I’ve
found that a bit disturbing. Allegations of a Verizon-style large
loud amphitheater, drunken patrons and crime. It’s just not true.
Anybody that says that has never been to Matilda’s, so. I would
encourage the council to vote yes for this, and hopefully without
the restriction of the three-year renewal process. I think it’ll be a
great thing for Milton. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you.
Robyn: Next speaker is Angie Forcucci
Angie Forcucci: Hi, thanks. My name is Angie Forcucci, and I’m at 9101 Windrush
Lane, Alpharetta, Georgia. And I’m in favor of Matilda’s really
being anywhere. My preference is that it stay where it already is,
which is a mile down the road from my house. I’m actuall y very
jealous that Milton even gets to consider this, because I found
Matilda’s about five years ago, and as a single mom in Alpharetta,
it’s really hard to find things to do on a budget and to take my two
sons to. Even movies end up being about $75.00 by the time you’re
done with the evening. So, I was so excited, because I’m from a
very small town, and I grew up with – my dad’s in a bluegrass
band. I grew up with music. He’s one of nine. They played music.
So, to find Matilda’s was like going home. And it felt like I was
going to a friend’s backyard to sit and watch, like we used to do,
like I did when I was growing up. And it gave me an opportunity
to take my children to a place where – and show them what my life
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
54
was like. Even though we’re in the city, we’re in the middle of the
city, we could go to Matilda’s and feel like we had gone to the
country, like we had gone way out of town and gotten out of the
city. So, that was the biggest blessing for me. Beyond that, though,
was the safety. It was a safe place. I felt safe taking my kids there,
letting them run around –
Sudie Gordon: Respectfully, we’ve reached an hour at this point.
Angie Forcucci Oh, okay.
Joe Lockwood: Excuse me one second. We’ll halt the time right now. How many
cards do we have left, Sudie? Three?
Sudie Gordon: We have one more speaker card.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I’m gonna ask, Council, can we add five minutes? Would
the council be okay adding five minutes to each side? Okay, do I
have a motion and a second on that?
Joe Longoria: So moved.
Peyton Jamison: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion and a second to add five minutes to each
side. All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That’s unanimous. Okay, ma’am. Go ahead.
Angie Forcucci Thank you. So, I felt safe. It’s a very safe place. And I want you to
know that the spirit and the heart, I think, of Mary Jane and Mark
have been conveyed here. It’s a place where I spent, over the past
five years, three of my birthdays, because that’s where I wanted to
be, outside in flip-flops with my kids, in that kind of place. And it
was always patrolled. It was always clean. It was always well-
maintained. Mark would patrol the perimeter of the entire place
during the concert. So, the expectation of the crowd was that you
behave. It wasn’t a free for all, willy-nilly. It wasn’t people coming
and going. It was really well-monitored, really well-kept. And it’s
been a great blessing. I’m jealous, Milton. Good luck. I hope you
get it. I hope you vote for it, because it’ll be worth it. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the final speaker on this –
for . . .
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
55
Sudie Gordon: Final speaker is Gordon Eyre, and I am in possession of an
affidavit. He’ll be representing Vantage Point HOA.
Gordon Eyre: Good evening. I’m glad you gave us a little bit of extra time. My
name is Gordon Eyre. I live at 144 Woodhaven Way in Alpharetta.
And the Vantage Point Condo Association, we had an HOA
meeting a few weeks ago, and they asked me to represent the
community here. I’ll be brief. I moved here about four years ago. I
didn’t know anybody. It took me a while to find Matilda’s, even
though I drove by it while they had concerts many times. But once
I found it, I found a family with [audio cuts out] [02:32:06]
community. And I met people. And Mark and Mary Jane, so many
people come to their venue. I see them in public at the grocery
store or whatever. They know me. They know me by my name.
And it’s a special experience.
I can just piggyback on what everybody else has said. It’s a picnic.
It’s a family environment. It’s a great place for families, kids,
going on a date. It’s very low-key. Driving by there on Highway 9
on an occasional weekend when I couldn’t go to a show, I couldn’t
hear the music. Being at the show, going into the house to use the
restroom or look at some of the art, I couldn’t hear the music in the
house, and the show was in the backyard.
Beyond that, I’m just gonna add one comment. When they had a
hearing in Alpharetta about this right outside the hearing chamber,
there was the Alpharetta brochure. And the city of Alpharetta
highlighted Matilda’s not only in text, but in photography in their
city brochure, called Awesome Alpharetta. And I suggest that you
do the same thing. And you could call it Magnificent Milton, and
highlight Matilda’s. It’s an asset, and I don’t even think – and all I
can say is, the people that are against this, I would say that a high
percentile of them, probably all of them, have never been there.
Thank you for your time.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Okay. So, that is all in support as far as actual public
speakers. So, I believe we had – did we have 65 minutes? Was that
what we . . .
Sudie Gordon: Correct. An hour and five minutes. So, we’ve still got two minutes
left over here.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Sudie Gordon: I do have 24 cards that I can read and also 16 –
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
56
Joe Lockwood: I’m gonna ask, can we do that after the –
Ken Jarrard: What I propose, Mr. Mayor, is we get through all the live
comments first, and then –
Joe Lockwood: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.
Ken Jarrard: – let the clerk at the end do the sum of them.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. We concur. So, now let’s start with those in opposition,
actual speakers.
Sudie Gordon: First public speaker is Wendy Mosa.
Joe Lockwood: And if we’ll end five minutes to – correct? Yeah, okay.
Sudie Gordon: Good evening. My evening is Wendy Mosa, and I am representing
the Shops at Birmingham, otherwise known as the Public Shopping
Center. We’re at 980 Birmingham Road. Our primary concern with
this project is the potential for overflow parking. We do not have
the ability to support overflow parking, so we just want to make
sure that that is crystal clear and known. We cannot support
overflow parking for this. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Okay, Sudie, if you’d please call the next
speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Sue Moore.
Sue Moore: I’m Sue Moore, 395 Canterbury Lake, Milton. I have been a
Milton resident before Milton was ever a city. People have moved
to Milton because it is unique in its quiet, almost country-like
setting. We don’t want to be like Johns Creek or Roswell.
Matilda’s, with its nine-variance request, many concerts, concerts
that last until 10:30, 11:00 p.m., 200 to 300 people at the concert,
and road congestion, are just a few of the concerns I have and why
I do not want this to be in Milton.
I have several toos – that’s T-O-O. Yes, there’s too many concerts
allowed. It’s too big, it’s too loud, and it’s too many variances. The
city charter spells [audio cuts out] [02:35:56] desire for this city.
Why would you ever allow nine variances? They talk about
Milton’s [sic] in Alpharetta not – it’s not near any housing area.
So, you’re not gonna have the traffic – you have a lot of traffic
noise, so you’re not gonna hear the music over the traffic noise.
The fact that you have limited to six in a month or Friday or
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
57
Saturday night says to me that you know very well that this is
going to be a disturbance for someone living nearby.
Milton citizens were here long before Matilda’s. It’s our right to
retain the peace and quiet that we paid for in choosing Milton.
Please vote no for Matilda’s at Birmingham Crossroads.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Leonard Jacklet.
Leonard Jacklet: Hello. My name is Leonard Jacklet at 15800 Birmingham
Highway. I have the privilege of owning two of the largest
buildings in the Birmingham Village, Building 100 and 200. And
as of tonight, I am standing here in opposition of the venue.
However, I will back up and say, when Curtis first shared what he
was thinking about, I actually, to be honest with you, thought it
was a good idea. After listening to all of the supporters for Matilda
tonight, again, who can argue the quality of the people that stood
up here, the quality of the venue, and everything positive that was
said? So, I think we all are aware that this turned into a positive
Matilda discussion. I think I wouldn’t disagree with them.
I’m standing here just a practical matter tonight with – I’m the
President of the Association of the Birmingham Village. I’ve had
to involve all business owners. I believe you’ve all received letters
from them, and even today, you received one from Wells Fargo, I
believe. And so, unanimously, the business owners are in
opposition to the venue. I again don’t think it has any reflection on
Matilda’s whatsoever. Matter of fact, it’s funny – one of the
gentleman said his best-kept secret is now out of the box. So, while
that might be true, that means we have a more serious situation to
look at.
I’m a practical man. Many of you know me. I’m taking a common
sense approach here. You have a tough job before you. So, let me
just pose some thoughts I have. Even though I’m in ultimately
opposition to it, I believe the parking issue is a problem. So, all
those in favor tonight, again, and agreeing with them, but we have
an issue where I’m concerned about. So, right now, all of the
Birmingham Village has adamantly said there will be no parking
allowed. Curtis Mills does own five spots in there. However, the
entire Village, including Wells Fargo, has made statements that
there will be no parking. Wendy just got up a minute ago and said
that the Public’s whole parking facility will not be available for
parking.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
58
So, as a practical matter, just from a liability, a usage taking away,
I personally – my office is right on the end, so I’m the one
probably closest being affected by the venue. My office literally
faces the venue. I work late Friday and Saturday nights. But at the
same time, if you pass it, I will probably be visiting and enjoying
the very thing they’re talking about. I’m just pointing out to you, I
would like to see the ones that support, as well as the ones
opposing, get our head around this. That’s where I’m coming from
tonight. The parking is a practical matter to me because what
would happen is we would have signs up saying “No concert
parking.” They’d be towed. That’s putting a tremendous burden on
us.
Matter of fact, it’d put a burden on every person that spoke here
tonight if they came in late, pulled into the parking lot, there was
not parking, they come out, what do they do? There’s nothing on
the road. There’s nothing across the street. So, I’m being very
practical tonight and asking, depending on what happens here,
could we please address the parking very, very clearly? Even the
Uber thing was brought up, and I would have to ask these people
that just stood up, how many people drive Uber? I don’t know. But
I am asking and pleading with you, please don’t put a burden on us
that do have the businesses right next door to take away the
parking, that those are all private parking spots.
So, that’s my biggest issue. I do have a question about the practical
thing. We’re proud of our Village. We have nice landscape. I
know, Curtis, I believe, you’d be willing to do a nice screen on the
front, some kind of nice planting that doesn’t take away from
Matilda’s. It would add to Matilda’s. Again, in one sense, because
of the magnitude of the traffic, the things that I don’t see, I can’t
quite [audio cuts out] [02:40:55] what’s going to happen. I would
say I’m in opposition. But I’m going back and forth because I’m
trying to say, let’s make it where if it does go through, please let’s
make this work.
The sound decibel, somebody was talking about how they could sit
next to their neighbor and talk. That’s great. I’ve not been to
Matilda’s, but I think that’s the way you’d enjoy. I like going to an
open air music with a restaurant. I think we all like that
environment. I’m asking, do we need the 85 decibels? I’m not a
scientist in this area. But if what that man has said is true, and if
what these people are saying is true, then why do we need a
variance? So, I’m really asking you to analyze, if there has been no
direct analysis of the 85 decibels, I’m asking you to consider why
are we even going there? Originally, I thought Fridays and
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
59
Saturday – and it doesn’t have to be two nights, but I’m not even
going there this moment.
I know that, Carter, you mentioned the issue with the islands. I
know that we’re proud of our Village. I just did a variance, which I
am grateful for. You all allowed me to have on my office to get
more parking. And we obliged by the islands, and it wasn’t for
asphalt reasons. It really was for the green space and the look of
the area. So, again, not to take away from these folks, but to say,
could we not make it standardized to what we have created in the
Village and the Birmingham Crossroads allow Curtis to put the
proper landscape in, in the islands between the parking spots, and
most of all, secure the parking that we desperately need? I’m
asking for that.
One last thing. Nothing has been said about vendors, and I don’t
know if this has been an issue, and I could be wrong. Somebody
said there’s gonna be booze vendors up there. And I don’t know if
that’s part of this variance or not. I’d like to know what truth was
on that. And then nobody said anything about the restaurant, so in
that parking calculation, however you do it, I believe we have a
restaurant going in there, which we’re all grateful for. But that’s
gonna add parking issues as well. I think that’s probably my
emphasis tonight. Again, I appreciate all of you. I just really want
this thing to work if it goes through. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Cynthia Chandlee.
Cynthia Chandlee: Good evening. Cynthia Chandlee, 263 McGarrity Road. As you all
know, I’ve been in the area for a long time and was one of the
three people that was in favor of the Publix when everybody was
up in arms. I’ve watched [audio cuts out] [02:43:41] area change,
and my profession is real estate. I have been a little bit caught off-
guard by seeing how this has been able to come into this location
and be a concert. And as a real estate agent, I’m like, wow, that’s
interesting. Maybe I can do that over here on this piece of land, or
this track of land, or do it somewhere else, because we’re gonna
allow it now here. Because I would have never in my wildest
dreams thought I could take a piece of AG land and put a concert
on it, ever. I mean, I’m just a little bit shooken [sic] up by that.
Now, Leonard did purchase two nice buildings in the community,
and as far as values go, I don’t know what this will do with
property values for the people that do have commercial buildings
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
60
that they personally own in that area, as far as resale and what it
will do. I don’t know how long – the noise hasn’t been really
calculated by a third party acoustic company. An acoustic noise
report has not been done. I do not know why we’re allowing an
applicant to do his own and not a third party. So, these are just a
few questions that I’m raising tonight.
And for right now, Matilda’s sounds wonderful. The people are
wonderful. I know some of them. They go back 30 years with
them. I’ve never been, but I think it would be great. But I don’t
know if it’s fitting the model for what we think Milton is. Thank
you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Theodore Cox.
Theodore Cox: Hi. Ted Cox, 13860 Bethany Oaks Point. That was my cell phone
going off at 85 decibels before. I’m here to voice my opposition to
the use permit request and the concurrent nine variances. Not
Matilda’s, but just the proposed location. And as I listen to the
arguments tonight, I would ask one question. What is there that’s
restricting this particular use permit to only music that’s like
Matilda’s? What if the owner wasn’t operating the property any
longer? What if he decided to have a rave? What if he wanted to
have 250 high school students playing rock’n’roll music? There’s
no restrictions on that type of operation. No discussion of only
being allowed for the type of music that Matilda’s currently plays.
On June 12th, the Milton Communications Team sent an email to
Milton residents stating that use permits were developed as a
means of providing for types of land use which are necessary and
desirable, but which are potentially incompatible with uses usually
allowed. I stress [audio cuts out] [02:46:26] necessary and
desirable, but by whom? The answer is obviously the property
owner’s. But typically it’s posed also by the people who live
nearby, the people who acted in good faith when they bought the
property, the people who expected the government to adhere to the
city’s comprehensive land plan.
I’ve personally appeared many times before the Milton City
Council, and before the city was created, the Fulton County
Commissioners. And I’ve always made the same point: that use
permits combined with variances is an especially dangerous
process, and it’s being abused, and it’s not consistent with the
city’s original intent. It was not to be used to rezone AG-1 property
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
61
to a commercial business.
Finally, a few specifics. Variance should be used judiciously, not
for minor discrepancies. That’s clearly not the case here. The
music venue with bathrooms, potentially 300 people, belongs in a
much more commercial location, such as Deerfield or Alpharetta
Highway, not at the Crossroads. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: Gayle Ivy.
Gayle Ivy: Good evening. I’m Gayle Ivy. I live at 405 Canterbury Lake in
Milton. I sent a letter via email to each and every one of you
yesterday. I’m very much against this venue. I happen to be a
commercial real estate broker for many years, and I’ve seen what
can happen with real estate. We were in the commercial real estate
business in Atlanta for many years. We had properties who had
venues like this. I have seen things happen that you wouldn’t
believe. I’ve seen a parking lot with people sleeping overnight
because they could not get where they needed to go afterwards.
And I’ve seen them doing other things. It was up to our
maintenance crew to take care of what they left.
And I personally have been inflicted with it, because after the
concerts, they have thrown trash in my yard. They’ve turned
around in my yard. And they’ve parked on my yard. So, I would
ask you to please think about all the things that could happen, not
what has happened. And like the people that are also opposed to it
have said, they’re not sure that these people are gonna stay here. It
could be another venue, and it couldn’t be this nice. It sounds like
they’ve got a really nice place. But they may not be here long. So,
that’s all I have to say. Thank you for listening.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: Kim Posey.
Kim Posey: Hi. I’m Kim Posey, and I live at 430 Canterbury Lake. And I’m
gonna put down my notes that I wrote. After listening to a lot of
things here, the things that I’m concerned about is I don’t know the
legality of precedent, but I do understand that if you let someone
put a septic tank in a setback or eliminate a buffer, it can’t be
replaced. And I kind of like the buffers. My neighborhood is
surrounded by AG-1 property. And what’s gonna happen one day
if someone else does come in and want to do something like this
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
62
again, and they want to have a special use permit for property that
abuts my subdivision, or the lake at my subdivision, or across the
lake at my subdivision? Because the noise does carry. And I
understand – I like music. I love listening to music. I love going to
places and hearing music.
And I’m not even saying that Matilda’s may not be a good fit. And
this isn’t even directed at Matilda’s. It’s just directed at what I
think is precedent that would be set allowing people to have nine
variances to make a piece of property conform to what they need
so our community has to conform to allow a piece of property to
house this. If it can’t be done without such drastic changes, is that
really the property that we need? So, I’m not saying no Matilda’s.
I’m not saying that it’s gonna be a big problem. But I also think –
I’ve lived in this city for – well, it’s not even been a city. I’ve lived
in my house for over 17 years. Raised my kids here. They went to
Milton High School. I drive on Birmingham Road, and I got to
those Crossroads every day. I’m a grandmother. I’m a mom.
That corner can get backed up. It took me 15 minutes tonight to
navigate a mile-and-a-half from my neighborhood just to
Freemanville Road. And I know that this isn’t during high traffic
times, but you can’t tell me on a Friday night at 7:00, people aren’t
gonna arrive at 5:00, 5:30 to set up their table and get their things
going. So, I kind of think – and the smallest thing is that we might
need to have some police presence to help direct traffic. I don’t
know if any of you experienced what happened to our area of
Birmingham Road when they allowed filming in Cherokee County
a couple weeks ago. It took my husband and I almost an hour to
get to the vet, which is about two blocks from this venue from our
house, because of the traffic.
So, I don’t really think these rural roads are small. They’re narrow.
Drive them at night sometimes. Drive them with the speed. Drive
them at where the on-ramp of 400 from Cherokee County and all
that additional traffic. Birmingham Road is dangerous, and it
scares me at 11:00 at night that we’re gonna set loose 50, or 100,
or 150, or maybe 275, depending on the night, people in our area
on the roads that aren’t familiar with how unlit they are, how curvy
they are, how skinny they are, how many deer there are. So, I think
there’s just some things that need to be looked at. I’m not saying
that this is something that shouldn’t happen. I just think this is
something that the people who live there, we should be considered.
I don’t say don’t have a good time, don’t have a party. But think
about the people who we live here, we work here. We raise our
kids here, and this is our home. Thank you.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
63
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Kevin Davis.
Kevin Davis: You having fun? As a first generation American citizen, thank you.
I hope everyone in this room appreciates how unusual this is.
Emotions are running really high, and yet somehow, we’ve got a
couple hundred people in this room having reasonable
conversations. And you’re on the receiving end of all of it. And so,
I thank you for doing your service in the greatest country in the
world.
From my perspective, 18 years in commercial real estate, this is
not about Matilda’s. It was said by someone I couldn’t see before –
oh, it’s Kevin Davis, by the way. Thank you. Sorry, Joe. 595
Hickory Mill Lane, Estates at Hickory Mill. Entrance is 7/10 of a
mile. My house is 9/10 of a mile. It was said before that this
discussion isn’t about Matilda’s, and I would agree. It’s about a
special use permit, which I think can – you had said that puts this
into the discussion of a zoning issue, and it’s about nine concurrent
variances. I’m not gonna hit them all. I don’t have energy around
all of them. Matter of fact, I came for one and only one. And I
want to thank Carter and staff for the way you’ve already
addressed it.
The one I came for, 64-1812-B6, eliminating the three-year
renewal. And you have already recommended that that is voted
down. And I appreciate that. Here’s why I think that’s so
important. It is not your responsibility as people that have been put
in office by us, the citizens, to have conversations about nine
variances that will allow the viability of someone’s business to
cash flow in three years [audio cuts out] [02:55:00]. That’s not
what you’re here for. It’s your responsibility to think of the
community. And we have a business that needs nine variances, it
makes me pause and say, well, how come?
More importantly, the three-year renewal is there for a reason, isn’t
it? It’s what our country is about. It’s what the founding fathers put
in place. It’s a check and a balance. I’m not saying that we
shouldn’t try Matilda’s. I am saying, if it doesn’t turn out to be
what everyone thinks it will be, and we’ve removed the check and
balance, what did we just do? If it is as fantastic as it will likely be,
what’s the big deal with having a check and balance in place? It
won’t be an issue in three years, will it? It’ll be renewed. It’ll be
[audio cuts out] [02:55:56], and we’ll all go to Matilda’s that
Friday night. Thank you for recommending that, and I strongly ask
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
64
you to consider why it’s there, the intent it’s supposed to serve, and
what we’re supposed to be considering.
Second thought, 64-1812-B5, to allow the facility to exceed the
maximum sound requirements. I love the conversation around this,
because I don’t think any of us are sound engineers. We have
wonderful energy around something that most of us are not
educated on. We do have a study that’s been bought by the
applicant that should be considered. However, I’m in the
investment business, and it occurs to me that if you go to a fund
company and you say, hey, how’s your performance? They will
show you data that says it’s wonderful. I know you have never
invested in anyone that had this happen. But it turns out I’ve
invested and it wasn’t quite so wonderful. What happened?
Well, maybe third party data should be used to validate it. It seems
reasonable. I’m a taxpayer. I’d encourage you to use my tax
dollars. Let’s hire an expert to do studies. Let’s have them go to
Matilda’s to get a statistically valid sample size. Let’s have them
come and replicate the decibels on the property. Invite all of the
people who are concerned to go stand in their neighborhoods while
you have someone who is gonna stand there and show me how
loud it is or it isn’t. See, right now, it’s all anecdotal. And that’s
dangerous, because it’s emotional, and we really don’t know.
Make it factual. Remove the possibility for this to be contentious
two years from now and say, here’s the data. Kevin, we stood in
your front yard, and here’s what it was. Your kids doing
cannonballs in the backyard were louder, which they probably will
be. But let’s remove the emotion from that, if we could.
Third thing. Additions. I love addition M. Thank you. The variance
goes away if proposed establishment ceases to operate. That’s a
great addition. But it was said before, I would encourage you to
clarify. Do not let that be ambiguous. It is a slippery slope, as you
said before. Define it specifically. Define it carefully. Put a clause
in there that says, if it ceased to operate, per whatever the
parameters are, that you will let the next council meeting then vote
to remove that special use permit. Make it so that we can’t
complain. We still will. But make it so that we shouldn’t be able to
complain. Get real specific around that.
In closing, I want to share something that my dad shared with me
when I was 18. I was heading off to college. I knew everything. He
was a stupid old man. And he said, “Kevin, I’m gonna give you a
piece of wisdom. I’m gonna give you a question, one question to
ask, in moment of extreme importance and emotionalism.” I’d say
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
65
this is important, and I’d say this is pretty emotional. Here was his
question. And I didn’t get this till I had kids about 10 years later.
He said, “Ask one question. What is the best decision long-term?”
What’s the best decision long-term?
I’d ask you to think long and hard about that. I’d ask you to be
thoughtful. I’d ask you to be wise. We’ve put you in office because
you all had something that we felt represented those. I’d ask you to
do it in a way where we can all look at that, and regardless of the
outcome, say hey, you know what? You followed a fantastic
process, and we appreciate it. Thank you for what you’re doing.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Jeff Posey.
Jeff Posey: Good evening. Kevin’s a tough act to follow there, but I’m gonna
try. My biggest –
Joe Lockwood: Excuse me. Yeah. Just name and address for the record, please.
Jeff Posey: I am Jeff Posey. My address is 430 Canterbury Lake. I live about a
mile-and-a-half from the site. My biggest problem with the
applicant’s proposal is not Matilda’s. I love live music. My wife
and I go to several concerts. My biggest problem is with the
disregard for the land use plan of the area. Nine variances,
eliminating buffer setbacks. I’ve been in the general contracting
business for 32 years. And I would love to have some of these
concessions. It’s great. Where do I sign, you know? But I just feel
like that it’s way too much, way too much. It’s not the citizens’
fault that it’s a challenged piece of property. It’s not up to the city
of Milton to ensure that the applicant makes money. Again,
something else I’d love to sign up for. 32 years of contracting. I’d
love to have the insurance policy of the city behind me like that.
Business is business. There are risks.
So, basically, I think parking will be a problem, especially when
the restaurant goes in up there. There will be overflow into the
other areas. There will be cars towed, I can guarantee you. I’ve
seen – been a part of other commercial businesses and have seen
this. So, basically, again, my biggest problem is the precedent that
is gonna be set by allowing these buffers to go away. It’s gonna be
a really big problem down the road. Again, precedent. You can’t
ignore it. And I thank you for your time, and I’d please ask you all
to consider this going forward.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
66
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Mark Wright.
Mark Wright: I feel like Andy Stanley right there. Mark Wright, 110 Hickory
Mill Court, Estates at Hickory Mill, which is right down the street
from Kevin over there. And yeah, that’s a pretty hard act to follow.
So, I guess my biggest thing is, I like music. I’ve never been to
Matilda’s, but I bet it’s pretty good. It sounds great. I mean, these
people with these fancy sticker – I’m sure it’s good. I’d love to go
there sometime. The last sticker that I think I wore was the “I
voted” sticker. And that’s because I voted in Milton because I’m a
city of Milton resident. The Matilda stickers seem to be a lot from
Alpharetta. Nothing wrong with Alpharetta. I grew up in Roswell.
I go down to Roswell. I go to Alpharetta. I go to Atlanta
sometimes. Atlanta’s a long way sometimes, so I don’t really go
that much anymore.
But I think the biggest thing we’ve got to watch out for is – and
I’m not a lawyer, so I’m not talking legal precedent and all that
stuff. But I can tell you, when you start taking buffers away, when
do you get them back? If it’s easy to say no to that today, when do
we get it back? That’s kind of what I look at. Again, nothing with
Matilda’s. It’s not about music. I mean, I know they’ve got the
fancy email blasts and all that. I know they’ve called out a couple
of our citizens that keep a pretty good check and balance on things,
people that live up near where we do in that area. If this was going
[audio cuts out] [03:03:53] that property down there, Triple
Crown, for example, or maybe down there where you live, Matt, or
where you live, Peyton, or where you live, Joe. Or Joe, or Rick, or
whatever. We could go around the table, right?
The “not in my backyard” thing seems to resonate. But I’m not as
much about that, because we’ve got Milton residents that do live
here and pay taxes here that are in favor of it. And I lived here
before the city was formed. I came out here in 2002. So, I’ve been
here a while. Grew up in Roswell. Native of Atlanta. Born in
Piedmont Hospital. So, I think I know the area a little bit. But I
think the biggest thing we got to watch out for is allowing these
things to slip away without a check on it, especially when it’s
people that don’t even live here and don’t pay taxes here, okay?
That’s really what I’d ask you to do as elected officials in the city
of Milton, is to look out for the residents of Milton. Again, I’m not
against Matilda’s. I just think you need to look out for some of this
stuff. Joe, I liked your line of questioning earlier. You kind of
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
67
opened it up. You sit it on the council. And I think those are
important questions for you guys to ask each other.
Sometimes my wife says I talk too much. I feel like I might be
getting to that point, so I’m gonna sit down. I think she’s coming
up here in a little while. But again, thank you for y’all’s service,
and nothing against you from Matilda’s either.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Jill Wright.
Jill Wright: Hello.
Joe Lockwood: Hello. Before you speak, do you really say that he talks too much?
Jill Wright: No comment. So, yes, I’m Jill Wright, and I’m at 110 Hickory Mill
Court. I live about – we’re about three-quarters of a mile from the
proposed venue site in a neighborhood called Estates of Hickory
Mill. My biggest concern, it’s not against Matilda’s, but it’s about
the variance to allow the maximum noise to exceed the maximum
noise allowed. We’ve lived there for 16 years, and our
neighborhood is very cute. We enjoy that part of our
neighborhood. When we want to go out, we come down to
Crabapple. We go to Roswell. We go to Alpharetta. And it’s just
nice to be able to drive home, and it’s quiet. We don’t have to
worry about the traffic, and the crowds, and the noise, and all that,
and the lights.
So, my concern is that we’re proposing – there’s a proposal for an
outdoor music venue that would be 42 Friday or Saturday nights a
month – or, a month. I’m sorry. For the year. And from 8:30 to
10:30, we may actually hear that in our neighborhood. I don’t
know, because I am not a sound engineer. But I would ask that you
have a third party do a sound study for that, because I don’t want
to have to have the conflict of we’re out in our backyard watching
football with friends over, and we hear that music in the
background. While it might be great music, I don’t want the
conflict of having to blare out TV to watch a football game, or
have music outside, having a party or whatever. If I want to go to
that venue, I’ll go to the venue. But I don’t want to have it in my
backyard. So, I ask that you consider that.
The other thing is about the traffic. I know some people had
mentioned that there’s no traffic in this area, and it is up in the
northernmost quadrant of the city of Milton. We do have a lot of
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
68
traffic. I don’t know if any traffic studies have been done, but a lot
of it does come from the nearby counties. In fact, this morning, I
was trying to take my daughter to volunteer at North Park with the
North Metro Miracle League. It took us 45 minutes at 8:40 in the
morning to get there. I think it’s only five miles. So, there is a big
traffic issue up there right now without that venue. And I know
they say 7:00 at night on Friday night, there is traffic. We do have
traffic there, and we fight it every day. So, I’d just ask that maybe
you do a traffic study before this is in place. And I think that’s it,
so, thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Robert Schlam. Robert Schlam?
Joe Lockwood: Is Mr. Schlam here? Schlam?
Sudie Gordon: Schlam? [Inaudible] [03:08:30]
Evan Cohen: Good evening. My name’s Evan Cohen. I’m representing Robert
Schlam at 15820 Milton Point in Milton. Just a couple of quick
comments from Bob. Bob lives less than a mile away from the
proposed site. To date, he’s very concerned, just given the fact that
traffic is already backing up past his neighborhood consistently on
Monday through Friday with a special emphasis on Fridays. In
addition to that, he has significant concerns regarding sounds and
wanting to maintain his peaceful residency in his neighborhood in
Milton. So, he’d simply ask that the Council denies this because, in
his opinion, this is not good for the area of Milton, it’s not good for
him, and it’s not good for his family. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Carol King.
Carol King: My name is Carol King, and I live at 16050 Cedric Drive. And
that’s at Hickory Crest, which is just a mile from the venue as well.
And I see there’s a lot of Matilda’s supporters here, and I think
they should have a spot. I just don’t think it should be this one. I
live a mile away, and I can’t walk there. I mean, it’d be great if
that’s the kind of community that we had. I can’t walk there. I’d
have to drive there. It’s not safe to walk there. We just don’t have
the infrastructure for a venue like this in our area. If we did, it
would be awesome. You come down here, there’s sidewalks
everywhere. You go to Alpharetta, there’s sidewalks everywhere.
There are not sidewalks here. There’s ditches. And we also have
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
69
lots of kids driving around all the time. This is gonna be a – in my
understanding, a BYOB venue. There’s no one monitoring the
alcohol consumption. There’s gonna be people driving, maybe
buzzed. And our kids are out on the roads. And for that reason, we
don’t want it out here on these dark roads.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Thomas Zarski.
Thomas Zarski: Yeah, Tom Zarski, 580 Hickory Flat, and this is 850, where this
venue is to be. I’m certain that this family, and the music, and the
people have good intentions. But other speakers got up and said
pretty much everything I was gonna say, and they said it very well.
So, I’ll just tell you one little thing, is that how far does sound
travel? Well, you don’t have a meter to tell me. Because I hear
barking outside my house. And I run outside, and I’m gonna quiet
down my wife’s dogs. It wasn’t them. Because the sound travels.
And then our dogs go outside, and they bark and bark. And the
sound just travels.
I’m one-fifth of a mile down my driveway north of Hickory Flat
Road. Sound travels. And things I hear. So, just real short story, is
that I’ve heard an awful lot of outdoor venues in my time. When I
graduated from high school, and now I find out it’s 50 years ago
now, Ted Nugent played at my high school outside. This was loud!
Now, this is just an interesting story. He played at, yes, I
[inaudible] [03:12:46] Verizon store. He played there. He didn’t
sell very well, so I think he was probably looking for a smaller
venue. If he comes to town, that’s gonna be – who’s gonna own
the place when he comes to town next? And he does have two
hearing aids. Maybe it was the guns. I don’t know. But thank you
very much.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Scott [audio cuts out] [03:13:13].
Scott Sawyer: Scott Sawyer, 787 Quarterpath Lane, Milton, Georgia. I live three
miles from the Birmingham Crossroads, and I wanted to encourage
you to deny the music festival use permit for two reasons. First, the
Crossroads intersection isn’t large enough to support a weekly
concert series and a new restaurant. If the use permit is approved,
there will be increased traffic and backup at the intersection,
including Old Bullpen Road and Freemanville Road as well. And
second, the three-year permit renewal permit is needed by the city
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
70
to protect citizens from any impact to the community. So, thanks
for considering denial of this application.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Caroline Lauterbach, and I am in position, as
she’s representing Triple Crown HOA.
Joe Lockwood: I’m sorry, could you say that – she’s representing who? I didn’t . . .
Caroline Lauterbach: Caroline Lauterbach.
Joe Lockwood: But no, you said Triple Crown. Okay.
Caroline Lauterbach: The Triple Crown HOA. Yeah, Carolina Lauterbach, and my voice
is gone today. 649 Citation Trail in Milton. And I represent the
Triple Crown HOA. And we are not anti-Matilda’s at all. We want
you to really think about this special use permit. It’s really about
the permit. I agree with what everyone else said here, so for
brevity, I’ll just say I agree with that, particularly Kevin back here.
What we’re considered about is if you let the special use permit go
for this particular piece of property, what stops another property
adjacent to our neighborhood, say it’s Stars Soccer. Say the
northwestern quadrant of the Birmingham Highway Circle. And
it’s not necessarily a music venue. It’s any other event. So, we’re
really concerned about what happens there, is just gonna maybe –
and I know what they say about a slippery slope, but it does
happen.
You give it to one place, you might want to look at another place.
Another commercial property’s gonna step up and say, hey, we can
do it here. And you’re right next to a neighborhood. I’m not
against – we’re not against the music in the right place and for the
right reason. I don’t think this is the one. Thanks.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Julie Zahner Bailey.
Julie Zahner Bailey: Good evening. My name is Julie Zahner Bailey, and I reside at 255
Hickory Flat Road, Milton, Georgia, less than a mile from the
proposed use. You can love music, you can love wine, you can
love friends, you can love Curtis Mills, and you can love
Matilda’s, and you can still be here tonight to ask for denial of the
special use permit and nine variances. This is not about Matilda’s.
This is about a special use permit that would be tied to a piece of
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
71
land that is about the piece of land and the nine variances. This is
simply not the right land or the right spot for a music venue with
nine variances. If it was an appropriate location and an appropriate
fit, there would be no variances. There certainly wouldn’t be nine.
Again, this is not about saving Matilda’s. They are not the
applicant. Curtis Mills is. But instead, this is about a music venue
with way too many variances and too few conditions, and it
belongs on a specific parcel where it would fit the requirements of
a special use permit. It really is that simple. I know that there’s
been a campaign, kind of a Save the Whales campaign, and I get
that, and I appreciate it. The folks that were here today when so
many of us were arriving, and they were handing out stickers to
folks. I asked for a sticker, and I was refused a sticker, because I
can support Matilda’s and still not support this special use permit. I
have a lot of friends in this audience, and some of them are
supporting Matilda’s. And a lot of those friends also don’t live in
Milton. And some of those friends don’t understand the necessity
of making sure that we have conditions that protect us for the long
haul.
Do I inform citizens of factual information? You bet. Have they
come to expect that from me after 30 years of protecting this place
that we call home? You bet. And I’ll never stand down from that. I
won’t be bullied, and I just won’t be bullied to try to not stand up
and support what I know is important. And special use plans,
special use permits, when you have nine variances, should not go
without immense due diligence. And I ask you tonight to do that
due diligence to ask the tough questions. Not to be wrapped up in a
Save the Matilda’s campaign, because tomorrow, after a special us
permit potentially is approved, Matilda’s could go away. The
Potters could go away and decide not to do this. Would that
happen? I don’t know. You don’t know. They don’t know. This
needs to be about what do we do to protect our community for the
long haul. And that’s why you’re in those seats, to have to make
the tough decisions. But we simply must, this evening, separate the
Save the Matilda’s campaign from the need for a special use
permit, and whether or not it fits on this particular property.
Reasons to deny are extensive, and they include the following.
This is not an extensive [sic] list, but it’s some of the things that I
hope you will consider. This AG-1 parcel of land is too small for
what is being requested, hence the nine variances. The AG-1 land
in question is outside – it’s outside of the northwest quadrant for
the Birmingham Crossroads. Therefore, it should have more
protections, not less. This AG-1 land is outside the Birmingham
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
72
Crossroads intended northwest quadrant.
Eighty five decibels as proposed is really loud. That’s too loud.
Eighty five decibels is for commercially zoned land. This is not
commercially zoned, and it’s not intended to be. It’s AG-1 land.
The noise levels have not been verified by an independent sound
engineer, nor has the city staff received any formal report from
such an independent entity. And I know that Curtis will come
forward. He said his sound engineer is here. And I appreciate that,
but we’ve got to trust but verify. And it’s your responsibility to
verify that, not simply trust it because we know Curtis. That’s
really not the point this evening. If it was any other applicant, we
would ask the tough questions, and we would expect our land use
policies to be upheld.
So, is it a tough place to be when you’ve got friends pursuing an
application that has nine variances that perhaps doesn’t stand? It is.
But I’m before you asking you to deny it because it doesn’t meet
the standards of our land use policies. Other special use permits in
the area with events allowed have required decibels of 60 to 65
decibels, not 85. If these variances are approved with no proof of
real hardship, and there’s not proof of hardship, other AG-1
landowners will be seeking similar treatment, and they’ll get it.
Required underserved buffers and setbacks are being reduced
significantly – in some cases, eliminated entirely, including those
along the property lines that abut the Birmingham Park. That’s
simply unacceptable. There is no hardship. Legally required
buffers and setbacks should remain in place. We have a green
space bond. We have folks that come to you every day saying,
please protect our buffers. Why would we not protect them here? It
makes no sense.
It’s perplexing on this site with this music venue that it would
require such a large septic field. It appears the applicant may be
asking to remove required buffers in order to place the septic field
in a certain location, yet there’s no hardship. The septic field could
be located elsewhere. It also raises the question as to whether or
not the longer-term plan is to attempt to [audio cuts out]
[03:21:16] future retail and mixed uses into what appears to be a
larger than needed septic field on AG-1 land for the current
proposed use. I heard some great discussions and questions earlier,
and I truly admire those questions, and I ask you to dig a little
deeper. Why would you allow a permanent infrastructure
component, when a special use permit supposedly would go away
if the use goes away? And again, this is not about Matilda’s. It’s
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
73
about a music venue.
The applicant is asking for a special use permit in perpetuity.
That’s forever. There’s a legally required three-year renewal
period, and it’s there for a reason. And there is no hardship. Staff
articulates well the importance of upholding the three-year
limitation to allow the residents, business owners, and the local
community to weigh in again about the impact of the music venue
if it were to come to this location. The three-year renewal period
should be mandatory, and it should be recurring. It provides the
only recourse to citizens in the city to hold the applicant
accountable. In fact, a three-year renewal period may be too long,
given this area was never intended for a music venue.
Any approved variances should be tied to the use, not the land. So,
that is, if the proposed use were to go away, the variances should
go away as well. I would contend that this also should be tied to
the operator. The folks that are here talking about saving Matilda’s,
if this use is not tied to Matilda’s, it is a ruse, and it doesn’t
necessarily last forever. I understand the intent is to bring
Matilda’s, but that doesn’t mean that it would be brought here and
that this operator would continue to operate as they have. They’ve
operated on a commercial quarter on Highway 9. That’s not here.
And I take no issue with the lovely people that I have come to
know as the Potters. I’ve been to several meetings with them.
They’re lovely. That’s not the point. They’re not the applicant.
Mr. Mills, nice guy. I’ve known him a long time. That’s not the
issue. This is a special use permit with nine variances. Let’s make
sure that we wrap our head around what’s really before us this
evening. If this was truly about saving Matilda’s, then as I said, the
special use permit should be tied to those specific operators, and
the cap should reflect that, and it should limit attendees to around
100 to 150, or maybe less. The proposed operator has been
conducting their business on commercially zoned land in a much
different environment than what is the rural northwest corner of
Milton. And as such, it frankly is unfair that an operator who
doesn’t live here has an expectation that residents of this area
would need to accept an influx of hundreds of inbound
concertgoers to our otherwise quiet corner of Milton.
Again, I love music. I love wine. And I like Matilda’s. But that’s
not the point. Your decision should not be about saving Matilda’s,
but instead about saving Milton and upholding the protections and
policies that impact the citizens of Milton that you represent. The
collective property values of the citizens and business owners of
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
74
this area of Milton are significant. Your first responsibility is to
protect citizens’ collective property rights. Concerts on Friday and
Saturday nights, which would be up to 48 concerts at an 85-decibel
level, is simply too much for this rural, noncommercial site. The
Birmingham Crossroads was always designed and implemented as
a neighborhood node; not a node intended as a destination per se,
but instead to serve the local community. This proposed music
venue would bring non-Milton concertgoers to this quiet corner of
Milton, and that’s okay for certain locations, but not here, where
it’s not positioned to be able to handle that volume.
The current season on commercial land supposedly is May to
October. If this were to be anything other than a denial, I would
ask that this be consistent with the May to October timeframe, not
an April to end of October or an April to November, but May to
October. The number of concerts should be capped at 20. That’s
what they say would be the maximum.
No traffic study has been conducted or recommended, but it should
be, and it should have happened before any approval was even
considered. Other special use permits in Milton, including Little
River Farm on Taylor Road, they do require an off-duty police
officer to direct traffic in and out when there’s more than 75
attendees. That would be something that should be considered for
this as well if you’re to do anything other than to deny.
No parking plan has been submitted or required. Business owners
on the other quadrants have expressed quite clearly and with strong
opposition that concertgoers or patrons of a future restaurant
parking in their parking lot is not going to be okay. Accordingly,
all cars would need to be able to be parked on the northwest
quadrant. So far, the parking capacity has not been demonstrated
by this applicant or validated by staff. Any parking variances that
would be approved for a music venue should not be allowed to
creep to the forthcoming restaurant. Parking should be broken up
with trees and should be buffered to ensure that a sea of parking is
not created. That was never the intent of the Birmingham
Crossroads. So, whatever’s approved for a special use permit
should not be allowed to creep to the restaurant that is
forthcoming.
Pedestrian safety is an issue, and it hasn’t been addressed. The
traffic miter should be reserved consistent with the use permit’s
length. That’s important. And I would also mention that small
businesses that have operated at Matilda’s – we heard it several
times tonight from those in support. That, to me, brings up an
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
75
additional condition, should you consider something other than
denial, that this needs to be expressly just a music venue, and it
should not include vendors, and retailers, and the things that were
mentioned, because I think that’s a real issue, or it wouldn’t have
been mentioned. I think those exist today, and that’s not what’s
been proposed for this.
I do live here, and I’ve been a Milton citizen, I’ve been a North
Fulton citizen, and I love music. And I think that the Potters are
lovely. And I think that this venue has a place somewhere. I just
don’t believe the place is on this particular AG-1 parcel with nine
variances. I respect each of you. I appreciate your time, and I ask
that you be diligent [audio cuts out] [03:27:15] tough questions.
And if you can’t get answers to the tough questions, this should be
denied. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Lori Henning.
Lori Henning: Good evening. It’s actually Lori Henning. 312 Taylor Glen,
Milton. Two things that struck me here from a business point of
view, that we’re talking about two different items here. We’re
talking about Matilda’s, and then the person that’s actually asking
for the development. How these two can be linked, I don’t
understand from any business point of view. I cannot see how
Matilda’s is going to benefit Milton in any way. I’m really sorry to
offend anybody. Traffic, how can anybody say that it’s not gonna
have a traffic impact? We have 40 cars at the Birmingham
Crossroads, and it’s a major, major issue. You want to bring 200 or
more in after hours? My goodness. I would not be able to go and
buy my kid ice cream, and I live half a mile down the road.
I think you should very clearly separate the use, the person who
wants to use this, and the applicant, and please make sure that you
keep Milton what Milton is supposed to be. And that is rural.
We’re not, at this point, in for music, especially not there. We
wanted quiet. That’s why we bought there. That’s why we pay our
taxes. I’m sorry. That’s why we pay for these things, is to be in a
quiet, secluded area. And already, the traffic is driving us insane.
So, please, please be wise in this decision. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Melissa Cohen.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
76
Melissa Cohen: Good evening. Melissa Cohen. I live at 16115 Sedgwick Drive in
Milton, Georgia. Thank you, Councilmembers and Mayor, for
listening to me. I’m gonna – Julie said a lot of points that I was
gonna make, but I’m gonna touch on one that she mentioned. I live
one mile from the current location being considered. The
Crossroads was intended, planned, and developed as a small
neighborhood node to serve the neighboring communities. I ask
Council not to remove the regulations to accommodate a venue
that turns our little neighborhood node into a destination that
services primarily those that don’t live near this location, those that
have no financial interest in making sure this neighborhood node
remains beautiful, safe, and beneficial to local property owners.
Let’s not bend the rules to accommodate a venue whose fan base
comes from 30 minutes away. Will they care about trash littering
the property after the concerts, about people tailgating in the
parking lots prior to and after concerts, about children trying to
navigate these two-lane, already tough roads, with BOYB
concertgoers, about the dangerous of pedestrians crossing
intersections without cross rocks? Will they care that I can’t have
the choice to use my backyard without hearing music?
Will they care that I have to plan coming and going from my house
on a Friday and Saturday night around a music venue’s start and
end times? That the buffers to our beloved Birmingham Park are
removed? That the landscape islands currently required to beautify
our parking lots at the corners are being removed? The simple
answer is no, they won’t care. Concertgoers who do not live here
will come to the venue and leave all the detrimental consequences
to us, the neighboring property owners, for us to suffer.
So, please, please be sure to listen closely to the community that
lives here, most of whom do not want a music venue here. This
neighborhood node was never intended for a music venue. Instead,
this is a special use permit with nine variances, and no hardships
have been demonstrated. I live here, and I do not want this here. I
have a right to expect you all to protect my property rights, the
values of why I bought where I bought. My neighbors and I should
not have to feel okay with a music venue coming to our
neighborhood. I do not, they do not. I ask you to deny, and thank
you for your time.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’ll please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Judy Burds.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
77
Judy Burds: Judy Birds, 1165 Bream Drive. I live less than one-half mile from
the application location, and I have called Milton my home for 11
years. We’ve heard comments about saving Matilda’s. But I’m
more about saving Milton’s teen children. Teens who will be
driving home from Friday football games, or Saturday night theater
performances, or babysitting jobs, right at the time when the event
patrons will be driving on our narrow country roads, unfamiliar
with its curves and lack of shoulders, after attending a BYOB
event.
And I’m about saving Ms. Betty. You’re gonna hear from Ms.
Betty in a bit. Betty has lived for 30 years just 700 feet in the
direction of the seating area. She should not have to endure the
noise from the added traffic passing her home at 11:00 at night.
And staff’s recommendation is to allow the concert every weekend
for seven months each year. Staff has not indicated a limit on the
number of concerts in its recommendation. I’m also for saving my
neighbor, who has been very ill and has needed our EMTs to
respond from [audio cuts out] [03:33:27] side of this venue,
which is where the fire station and the EMTs reside, four times this
past June. I hope it is never delayed. He deserves to live.
If Matilda’s is to be saved, it needs to be off a four-lane road with
traffic lights, adequate parking and lighting, sidewalks, and ample
Uber access. Uber will drop you off at Birmingham Crossroads,
but they will not pick you up. Somewhere close to their existing
fan base who want to continue to support them financially and who
would not need to drive up to 30 more minutes across Milton to do
so. It needs to be where it can safely succeed, not in the
Birmingham Crossroads, which was never intended to be a
destination venue. I think this application should be denied, and I
hope you would consider my request.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Connie Beardsley.
Connie Beardsley: Good evening. Tonight, I would like to talk to each and every one
of you –
Joe Lockwood: Excuse me, Ms. Beardsley, if you wouldn’t mind –
Connie Beardsley: I’m sorry.
Joe Lockwood: – just name and address for the record. I’m sorry.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
78
Connie Beardsley: 1051 Bream Drive, one-third of a mile from this venue. It’s very
close to our backyard, and I’d like you guys to consider how it’s
gonna impact our community. I’m opposed to the special permit,
but not Matilda’s. Matilda’s sounds like a wonderful place to go.
But, by having Matilda’s in my backyard, I do not get a choice for
six to seven months to not go to Matilda’s concerts. If they don’t
want to go, they just don’t show up. But for the residents to have to
deal with a traffic situation, a noise issue, also a BYOB situation in
this venue, is making all the community in this area have to . . .
accept every Friday and Saturday or Friday and Saturday, however
you guys want to say it. It is taking six to seven months out of our
year.
I moved to Milton from the Johns Creek Cumming area. We
moved here in 2001, my husband and I, to raise a family. We
moved from Johns Creek and Cumming because of the commercial
and the overgrowth. The traffic situations just got unbearable. We
started looking. We found Milton. Milton is a beautiful area. My
friends that come out here, they can’t believe the stars. They can’t
believe the horse farms, how beautiful the rolling hills, how
preserved it is out here. And that’s why we moved out here. We
moved out here because it is preserved.
I got to meet – which I’ll be talking to you in a few minutes,
whenever I’m called – Betty Logans. Betty Logans is 83 years old.
She lives in the house next to the Publix. She has lived in three
different residence in Milton for 60 years. She has seen Milton
change so much in the growth and the development. But with this
music venue, her last years as she’s getting older, being 83, why
are we gonna do this to her? She’s lived in Milton and loved
Milton for so many years, and she wasn’t notified, for one thing,
which was really sad. But her to see so much traffic coming and
going. Also, she mentioned to me that the revivals that go on at the
four churches in our crossroads last from June to August. She goes
to church and does not get home until 10:00 at night. She is gonna
be driving from the Baptist church right across the venue to get
home.
There’s another concern, which Judy had reached, about BYOB. I
have a teenage daughter. She is driving. She will be coming home
from Milton football games, swim meets, and other venues. The
two-lane roads out here are very difficult for a seasoned driver to
drive. These young kids that drive out here to try to calculate
people that may have been drinking too much, because this BYOB,
there’s nobody regulating it. There’s nobody – check and balances
like bars will. Bars, you had too much to drink, they’ll call you a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
79
cab, or they’ll tell a police officer. There’s no crosswalks. There’s
no lights out here.
My fear is if one of these people could come home, come through
the crosswalk, somebody’s coming from Publix with a 12-pack of
a beer on their shoulder and it’s dark, one of these kids could hit a
patron. That would be devastating for a young person, as much as
an adult, to hit somebody and possibly kill them because there’s no
crosswalks, there’s no lights, and people will be coming and going.
The parking is a situation. The traffic is a situation. I know that
we’re on the list to solve the problem. But it’s a long list for you
guys to solve for the traffic issues.
I hope that you will consider all the possibilities of what everybody
has been talking about here today. We love Milton. We love
Milton because it is pristine. It’s picturesque. Let’s not change that.
So, I am asking for you guys to vote down this permit. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Sudie, how many more cards do you have?
Sudie Gordon: We’ve got 16 more cards. Let me stop that. And we’ve got six
minutes and [audio cuts out] [03:40:58] seconds left. I’ll stop.
Five minutes. No, you got to add five to that.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. How many minutes do we have left?
Sudie Gordon: Five-and-a-half.
Joe Lockwood: How much?
Sudie Gordon: Five-and-a-half.
Joe Lockwood: Five minutes. And 16 more cards.
Sudie Gordon: Yes.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. If you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Betty Logans.
Connie Beardsley: This’ll be quick. Sorry. This is from Betty Logans. She lives at
15195 Birmingham Highway, Milton, Georgia. My name is Betty
Logans, and I live at 15915 Birmingham Highway, right next door
to the proposed concert venue, a location less than 1,000 feet away.
I am totally opposed to the proposed music venue and variances at
850 Hickory Flat Road. I want this application denied. I am in ill
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
80
health and cannot tolerate the noise that a concert venue would
bring to my front door, not to mention the traffic, parking issues
this would also bring to our area that is already congested and have
a lot of traffic during the morning and evenings. I can barely get
out of my driveway now at times and can’t imagine the traffic this
concert venue would bring in my front of my house.
I am unable to attend this meeting in person due to health issues, so
I want Connie Beardsley to read this statement at the council
meeting June 18th. And it’s signed. Would you like?
Joe Lockwood: Thank you very much. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Evan Cohen.
Evan Cohen: Good evening. Evan Cohen, 16115 Sedgwick Drive, Milton. I live
less than one mile from the proposed special use permit location
and drive by the property every time that I have to leave my home.
I oppose the use permit and request that you deny it and the nine
variances, not because I don’t think Matilda’s or a music venue
should be relocated somewhere, but because a music venue simply
doesn’t fit this location. And as a citizen that lives right here, I
simply don’t want it. This is not what I signed up for when I
moved into my neighborhood. We made an investment based on
clear rules as to what is and what is not allowed in this area of
Milton.
The city of Milton has regulations and requirements for all
property in Milton. Owners, including Mr. Mills, buy into these
properties agreeing to these requirements. The requirements on this
particular location do not fit the intended use. So, why is it now the
responsibility of the city to remove and/or bend these requirements
to somehow make this work for this particular owner? It seems to
be working a bit backwards, in my opinion. The intent of a use
permit should fit the land based on the legal requirements, not
change the requirements to fit the venue, no matter how much
someone might like the idea. I have significant concerns with
granting nine variances to any property owner, especially without
meeting the hardship requirement.
None of the variances meet the hardship requirement that Milton
has so strongly upheld to justly protect what is mine and my
neighbors’ biggest investments, our property. Just because you
can’t accommodate necessary parking doesn’t mean you should get
to remove the required landscape islands and allow the parking to
be one large area. Just because you can’t hear music at the normal
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
81
sound requirement doesn’t mean that you should get to have it
increased. Just because you can’t fit a septic tank to accommodate
this venue doesn’t mean you should get to remove buffers and any
of the setbacks. Some residents understand that these rules and
requirements help to ensure Milton stays special and unique. The
city should not bend the rules to shove this venue where it doesn’t.
I thank you in advance and ask that you deny.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Jeff Beardsley.
Jeff Beardsley: Hi, I’m Jeff Beardsley. I live at 1051 Breem Drive. Our house is a
third of a mile from the proposed venue, and everybody’s pretty
much hit the highlights. But our concerns are about the noise,
because when we originally bought our house, that was the appeal
of being in the country. We live across the street from a horse
farm. It’s quiet. A lot of my neighbors that are here tonight, we
visit outside. We don’t want to sit outside on Friday or Saturday
night and hear a concert. I think someone said that before, they
don’t want to be forced to be at a concert venue, and neither do we.
Also, the traffic at that intersection is so bad that it’s a terrible
location for this. So, Matilda’s may not seem like a bad idea. It
sounds good. But that intersection, I don’t see how it can possibly
support it. It’s a disaster in the evening, in the morning. I think
someone mentioned that just a few cars in the morning; you can
have a 10-minute backup at the four-way stop. So, I can’t imagine
having 100, 200 cars going in, coming out at that time of day.
Going in on a Friday, you’ve got Friday traffic. Most of my
neighbors don’t get home till 7:00 at night because of the traffic.
They’re not gonna appreciate the concert going, people coming in
at that time. So, I oppose it, and I appreciate you guys’s
consideration. Thanks.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. All right, Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: So, at this point, the opposition has reached their hour and five
minutes.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. How many cards do we have or speakers left?
Sudie Gordon: I have . . . 13. And the support has two minutes and 15 seconds
left.
Joe Lockwood: I’m gonna propose 20 minutes to add. Let’s see how that goes with
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
82
13. Council, other suggestions? Good. [Inaudible] [03:47:46]
Okay. I’ll open it up for a motion to add 20 minutes.
Matt Kunz I make a motion that we add 20 minutes.
Peyton Jamison Second.
Joe Lockwood: We have a motion and a second. All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Motion’s unanimous. Sudie, we’re gonna have 20 minutes. Those
in support will have the same amount of time added also. If you
could please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: It’s Kevin Crow.
Kevin Crow: Good evening. Kevin Crow, 1153 Breem Drive, Milton, Georgia.
Thank you for the additional time. Dear Mayor Lockwood, City
Council, and staff members, as you know, this is not about
Matilda’s nor the possible restaurant coming next door. This is
about the special use permit. My famil y and I live approximately
0.4 miles away from the subject site associated with the special use
permit and nine variance requests. I’m here after long
consideration of all the facts and discussions with the stakeholders.
My concerns are many, but the largest ones are the expected noise
levels and duration of those noise levels that my family will have
to be subjected to throughout the year.
The lack of understanding of the traffic safety impact with the
additional 200, 300, however many, if this is ever decided upon, is
extremely concerning. The BYOB nature of the facility, the lack of
oversight on that is extremely concerning as well to those of us
with family members. And the duration of the permit is deeply
troubling. The noise and disruption to our quiet enjoyment of our
home is the most concerning and deeply troubling. We moved to
Milton, taking the city’s mission statement about the best quality
of life and the vision statement, such as respecting rural heritage
and the best place to call home seriously. We strongly feel if this
music venue and special use permit is granted as proposed, we as
Milton residents will have lost our right to the quiet enjoyment of
our property and negatively impact the largest investment we have
as a family, which is our home value.
We ask for your empathy, and be empathetic to our situation.
There are many people who have zero concern for those who live
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
83
so close to this site. We have no desire to hear 48 or even 20
concerts per year while trying to enjoy our family and our friends
at our home. Most concertgoers can go as they please and retreat to
their quiet homes and community, where they [audio cuts out]
[03:50:19] want to hear music until 11:00 p.m. at night. We would
not be afforded such a luxury. Many of the proponents of this
special use permit would never want to have such a venue this
close to their home. If we’d wanted to live in an area that had this
many concerts until 11:00 p.m. at night, we would have not moved
to Milton. We would have chosen an area such as Alpharetta,
Roswell, Johns Creek, you name it.
So, the question is, would we have ever anticipated this coming to
our neighborhood when we purchased our home? And the answer
is a resounding no, if you ask anyone in the neighborhood. The
lack of understanding of the traffic impact on the crossroads, as
well as the parking [audio cuts out] [03:50:57] and solution to
such is also concerning. There does not seem to be a definitive
answer to questions regarding the expected increase in car count,
adequate onsite parking spaces, impact to surrounding business
parking, and how to manage this traffic and parking.
Also, the duration of any special use permit should be short-term in
nature. Being that the proposed use of this property will be so
disruptive to the surrounding community, I would ask that a very
short, less than 12-month in duration be approved, and that seems
logical and should be considered. In closing, the staff and planning
recommendations on the noise level is frankly unacceptable. I’d
ask you to look at the Little River solution levels, the lack of
formal traffic and parking plan, the large number of people
allowed. 200 to 300 people basically descending upon that location
in such a short order is concerning.
The BYOB nature of the facility, lack of oversight on that, and
lack of security in the safety plan, and the duration of the special
use permit, are all completely unacceptable, and I ask that it be
denied. This is not the right location for the music venue. I look to
my elected officials to act on behalf of the Milton citizens. Please
support the best interests of all citizens, especially those like my
family, who are negatively impacted by this music venue. I’d just
ask that you look at this as if this was coming to your backyard,
and how would you feel. So, thank you for your time and your
service on the council.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
84
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Steven Barnett.
Judy Burds: Steven gave me written permission to speak on his behalf today.
Steven M. Barnett, 112 Slide Court, Milton, Georgia, 30004. I
would like to have Judy Birds read my statement below in
opposition to the application for a festival event permit and nine
variances for 850 Hickory Flat Road. I am a civil litigation
attorney, and I’ll be in deposition in downtown Atlanta that will
continue late into the evening on Monday, June 18th, otherwise I
would be there in person to deliver my statement, as I feel strongly
about this issue.
Our family lives roughly 1,500 feet from the proposed event
venue. As with many Milton residents, we have young children,
and we all love to play and relax outside. We moved to Milton
from East Cobb about six years ago, simply because of the quiet
out in the country feel of Milton. Since we have moved, we have
unfortunately seen a push to make Milton like East Cobb or Johns
Creek. Now Milton sees neighborhood after neighborhood going
up and traffic becoming a problem. I used to look forward to drive
home from work through the horse farms. Now I wonder how long
it will take me to get through the line at certain stop signs.
These and other problems only become magnified when you put a
300-person music venue with alcohol, high decibel levels allowed,
roughly every weekend – I believe it was stated up to 48 events per
year – in an otherwise quiet city. I understand that a higher decibel
level, 85, has been requested. This should be the first red flag for
any such venue in Milton. Again, this is Milton – quiet horse farms
with few neighborhoods and a country field. We, like most others,
pay a premium to live in Milton. We paid that premium to be far
away from such events and such noise.
I request the City Council deny this application as it is, yet another
step toward losing Milton. But it does even more than that. It also
creates public safety concerns. The narrow curvy roads with
limited to no shoulders in northwest Milton create a heightened
risk when driven at dark by people that are not familiar with the
roads and intersections. These roads are not designed for safe high-
volume traffic. Add the potential for alcohol consumption at a
high-volume event prior to driving, and the risk is even higher.
Again, this is not East Cobb or Johns Creek. This is Milton. It is
unique and special. Please don’t ignore and throw away the
reasons most of us, certainly our family, moved out here. Steven
M. Barnett, Esquire Law Offices of Steven M. Barnett, and his
work address.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
85
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Cam Crow.
Cam Crow: Good evening. I’m Cam Crow. I live at 1153 Breem Drive,
approximately 0.4 miles from the concert location. I’m asking you
to deny this special use permit for the Birmingham Crossroads. It’s
very sad to me tonight to hear the supporters of Matilda’s think
that this is political fear-mongering. This is about land use and
what’s appropriate for the Birmingham Crossroads, and real issues
that impact my family. Milton is unique in that in our community,
we have such a diversity of place, from Deerfield to our
community town center here in Crabapple, to the more rural
Milton, such as the Birmingham Crossroads. I think we can find a
home for Matilda’s and save Matilda’s in Milton, but it should be
in a more – in an area designed to accommodate the level of
visitors, such as here at New Green. Look at how much
infrastructure investment we’ve recently completed here with the
new road, the two traffic circles, to accommodate the retail
development, the Green space. And this is the type of area that is
perfect for this type of venue, for this community to come together
and find that sense of community and enjoyment in those cultural
activities like Matilda’s.
Unfortunately, the traffic congestion, all the parking concerns that
others have mentioned, are extremely concerning to me as a
resident who drives through them multiple times a day. And it can
take up to 15 minutes literally to get through that four-way stop
sign. I already have a 50-minute commute into work in Cobb
County, but yet, I chose to pay Fulton County taxes and live in
North Fulton for our wonderful schools and our quality of life, and
the peaceful enjoyment of my home. And like the point that many
others have made, I, if this gets approved, don’t have the choice to
avoid this intersection 48 times a year. And yes, 7:00 at night,
there is still traffic at that four-way stop. Trust me; I don’t leave
work until 6:00. It’s 7:00 on a Friday night before I’m getting
home. I’m sitting in it personally.
Really, this intersection is already in dire need of a solution. With
the modified 200 attendees plus the 75 [audio cuts out] [03:57:55]
restaurant, plus the 33 townhomes that were recently approved on
the opposite corner of this intersection, we just have a confluence
of activity, that this intersection needs to be prioritized for a
solution. I understand a study is on the way, but we are probably
realistically five years from a solution. It’s not the right place. It’s
not in keeping with the use for that neighborhood node of
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
86
Birmingham Crossroads.
Again, I think others have spoken to the issue of public safety. I
am directly concerned about people trying to walk from Publix
across to the venue. In a BYOB environment, how perfect is that,
to be able to just run into Publix and grab whatever you’re gonna
enjoy for the night? But that is gonna create a real public safety
issue with pedestrian traffic trying to park there.
I think the other thing that has been determined or discussed
earlier, but I really want to reiterate, because this is really
extremely concerning to me as a citizen – I really would like there
to be some investigation on what happened at the Planning
Committee. The Planning Commission almost doubled what the
applicant was even asking for. That is a head scratcher for me as a
resident. I know that the council thinks that preserving green space
in this area that has – a small portion of it is commercial, and the
rest is AG, and that to preserve this type of venue would keep that
back AG part commercial [audio cuts out] [03:59:25]
commercial-free.
Again, this level of people in a condensed amount of time is just
not what the community and the neighbors directly surrounding
that area want in terms of preserved green space. Again, the
buffers and the setbacks that were reduced in this variance request
are significant and a detriment to preserving our rural character.
Thank you for eliminating the review period. That was
incomprehensible to me, that the Planning Committee would
[audio cuts out] [03:59:56] that recommendation. Thank you for
your time.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Tim Becker.
Tim Becker: Good evening, Council. Tim Becker, 15625 Canterbury Chase. I
live just 1.5 miles from the Crossroads. I’ve lived in Milton 25
years. Milton is my home. I’m all for saving Matilda’s, and the
Potters seem like really nice people. But that is not the question
tonight. The question is whether Matilda’s belongs at the
Crossroads. And the answer is, it does not. This is an issue of rule
of law, and an issue of what nearby residents and nearby
businesses want.
Regarding the rule of law, the applicant is seeking nine variances.
Nine variances. If you need nine variances, it means that the
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
87
property probably doesn’t fit the use, okay? This is a property
that’s constrained from a geometry standpoint, from a size
standpoint, and it’s got some physical features, the power line
going through it, that make it very hard to put a concert venue in
like this.
Some of the variances involve essential protections for the
community. For example, the city is recommending a five times
increase in Milton’s standard for noise at the property line. This
new standard is 85 decibels. Right now, we have two special event
facilities. One is held to 60 decibels; the other one, 65 decibels. So,
this is a step change, okay, and allow this. Look up 85 decibels. I
know people don’t [audio cuts out] [04:02:13] the freight train
traveling at 45 miles an hour, but that’s the sound at a hundred
feet. 85 decibels. My leaf blower, electric leaf blower, puts out 85
decibels at three feet. I’m not talking about what Matilda’s is going
to put out. I’m talking about setting a new standard in Milton.
That’s the problem. It’s loud. Look it up. No one, no one should
have to suffer 85 decibels at their property line.
Another example of an essential protection is the elimination of the
75-foot buffer at the boundary of Birmingham Park. Our beloved
Birmingham Park. We are going to let the applicant clear-cut all
the way to the boundary of that park. The buffers are there to
protect the views from within the park and to buffer noise from
outside of the park.
I also want to discuss the feelings of nearby residents and
businesses. And I’ve counted tonight how many people have
spoken. The people that spoke in favor, there were 13. Only three
live nearby. Okay. So far, 25 people have spoken in opposition. 24
of those people live nearby. I remember the first council meeting
that I came to. It was over three years ago, and it was about the
abandonment of the roads at Crooked Creek. And I remember the
number one reason for doing that was called local control. Well,
those of us that live at the Crossroads, we want the same treatment.
We want you to think about the nearby residents, because you’re
hearing them tonight, okay? 24 of them have spoken already,
okay?
How about the nearby businesses? The nearby businesses have
signed a petition. I organized this petition. Mr. Mills is one of the
building owners over there. Of course, he did not sign the petition.
But the other six, the other six businesses – and we’re talking
about $3 million in property value or more, okay? – they had made
a investment in the Crossroads. These are businesses, local
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
88
businesses, okay? This is their livelihood. This is a big investment
for them. They have all signed this petition. I’m waiting on one to
give me assent, but that individual did say that they were in
opposition.
So, I have this tonight, the petition. I’m gonna give it to the city
clerk. I have the emails attached from each of those businesses.
They’re right across the street. They have legal standing. And
they’re not very happy about this. So, local businesses and nearby
residents, 24 so far, and we’re gonna hear from more. Thank you.
Please deny this. And thank you for your service to the
community.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Tony Outeda
Tony Outeda Hello. My name is Tony Outeda I live at 325 Taylor Glen Drive in
Milton, Georgia. And I’d just like to say that it’s interesting to me
that this seems to me, at least, that this whole discussion is kind of
taking place under a false premise. I think it’s based on a very
successful marketing campaign that the property owner and the
concert promoters have put together, this idea of saving Matilda’s.
It’s not incumbent upon the city of Milton to save Matilda’s.
Matilda’s can go to Alpharetta. It can go to Roswell. There’s
plenty of places Matilda can go. It’s not incumbent upon the city,
and if the city doesn’t do something to have this facility and
approve this application, Matilda’s is gonna go someplace else. It’s
not gonna die. Not like the polar bears.
And I’ve also heard members of this city council from this podium
or the old podium say a number of times that we can’t control
growth. We can’t stop the growth in Milton, but we can manage it.
And if the city council approves this, I would have to say it’s a
very poor way of managing the growth. It’s not good at all. So, I
hope you guys really think about this and decide that it’s
unnecessary. They can go anywhere. And we do really need to
manage the growth intelligently. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Kathy Brnovich
Kathy Bronovich: Hi. I’m Kathy Bronovich, and I live at 1123 Bream Drive. We
moved my family to Milton seven years ago, and we didn’t move
for the schools, even though I hear they’re excellent. We don’t use
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
89
your parks. We moved for the peace and quiet. And I feel
Matilda’s, I’m sure, is a wonderful place, but it just doesn’t belong
at that location. And I know you’ve heard this many times, but
we’re just concerned about the noise. We’re concerned about the
traffic. We’re concerned about bringing your own beverages. And
we just don’t want it at our neighborhood and affecting our
property values. So, I hope that you deny as far as letting Matilda’s
come. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Tom Middleton.
Tom Middleton: Hello. Tom Middleton, 1141 Bream Drive. I also live 0.4 miles
away from this venue. I moved here 12 years ago. I grew up in
Roswell. And Milton was a dream for me to move up here, the
[audio cuts out] [04:08:41], the horse farms, the quietness. And I
raised a family up here. I have triplets, 16-year-old triplets. And
they’re starting to drive now. And that was a big concern with
having a venue like this in the area that really is not meant for this.
If it was good for Milton, why is there so many people opposed to
it? Well, the quietness, why we moved up here. The roads. The
danger. The lack of lighting in these roads. My kids’ll be coming
home from Milton football games. I don’t want them to be hit on a
head-on collision on a drunk driver. BYOB is a big issue with me,
and I don’t think these roads can accommodate this. The parking.
There’s no parking in the areas. They’re gonna be parking in our
neighborhood. We already have cars pulled in our lane right now
that are confused and get turned around, and it’s just a bad
congested area, and this is not [audio cuts out] [04:09:31].
And I’m a musician, and I love music. I’m going to Nashville
tomorrow. I’m gonna go see a lot of good music. I love the fact
that Matilda’s is around. I think they need to be around. But this
area is not the right area. So, I oppose it. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, could you please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: Terry White.
Terry White: Good evening. My name is Terry White. I live at 1130 Bream
Drive, which is slightly less than a mile from the venue. I have
concerns about the proposed use permit. The main concerns
involve safety, noise, and the perpetual use permit. This part of
Milton is safe and quiet. There are a couple things that attracted
my wife and I to move to this area. The use permit potentially
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
90
threatens our safety and disturbs our peaceful evenings. I
understand this venue will allow BYOB, so of course, I’m curious
what controls will be put in place to keep intoxicated drivers off
our roads. Regarding the noise, the legal requirement of 60
decibels, I believe, was put in place for a reason. Raising it to 85
decibels, I believe, should be denied.
It’s too great and too [audio cuts out] [04:10:55] for our houses,
our families, our quality of life. It’s something that I want to hear
from 7:00 to 11:00 p.m. on a Saturday night seven or eight months
out of the year. And since the music is outdoors, sound travels
further than if it were inside a building, per se. My wife and I enjoy
sitting on our back deck listening to the sound of nature, and now
this may be in jeopardy. Finally, I recommend that you not
approve the perpetual use permit. This could set a challenging
precedence and a challenging job should the current endeavor
change for the worse in the future. I’m not opposed to growth or
change. I request that you deny this special use request permit, the
related variances as they are currently proposed [audio cuts out]
[04:11:46] Milton. [Audio cuts out] [04:11:49] for your time.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Okay.
Sudie Gordon: So, the opponents have reached their 20 minutes. So, they’ve had a
total of an hour and 25 minutes. And support has 22 minutes left,
15 seconds.
Joe Lockwood: How many speakers do we have left?
Sudie Gordon: We have five.
Joe Lockwood: All right. I’m gonna recommend 10 more minutes.
Rick Mohrig I would make a motion to add 10 more minutes to both sides.
Matt Kunz Seconded.
Joe Lockwood: I’ve got a motion, seconded. 10 minutes of time for the speakers.
All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: That’s unanimous.
Sudie Gordon: Okay. The next speaker is Ashlyn Wrobleski
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
91
Judy Burds The good news is – the bad news is –
Joe Lockwood: Ma’am, we’ll ask for you if you’re called, please.
Judy Burds The bad news is, the Wrobleski’s had to leave. The good news is,
we just got some more time.
Sudie Gordon: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: Please call the next speaker.
Sudie Gordon: The next speaker is Nicole Sage. And I believe Carol King is
speaking on her behalf.
Carol King: Yes. Nicole Sage lives at 16050 Sedgwick Drive. And she’s lived
there for a number of years. She went to Milton High School.
She’s still living at home. She’s young. She would be the kind of
person that would definitely want something like this in the
neighborhood. Always thinks that we live so far out. But when I
asked her about it, she said, “I strongly urge you to vote against the
proposal of Matilda’s music venue. The venue will bring forth
traffic that the area is not equipped to handle. It will also disrupt
the peace and bring forward many safety concerns. This is not the
appropriate location for [audio cuts out] [04:13:49] by any means.
The fact that there is unmonitored drinking in the area and there
are many young drivers and families is unacceptable. Please take
these concerns into consideration. Help us to strive to keep Milton
a safe and peaceful community.”
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Sudie, if you’d please call the next.
Sudie Gordon: Next speaker is Carol King speaking on behalf of Al King.
Carol King: So, Al King also lives at 16050 Sedgwick Drive. This is a family
home neighborhood. We moved here to enjoy the peace and quiet
of rural living. This is part of the reason our property values
continue to increase. We have ample land and can enjoy a peaceful
existence with our family without city noise and pedestrian traffic.
This special use permit requires too many variances, and this
would have been known at the time [audio cuts out] [04:14:41] by
the current owner. There is no reason to force a project in the name
of working business community on this project. We love Publix
and that convenience. We can go downtown – Alpharetta, Roswell,
and Avalon if we want entertainment.
This is not an area to bring outside entertainment. I am very
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
92
concerned [audio cuts out] [04:14:58] the safety of our residents,
and there would assuredly be opportunities for pedestrians drinking
around the venue and driving. The impact to the area does not
justify the variances. Please do not approve this special use.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Okay, Sudie, if you’d please call – are we – two more
speakers?
Sudie Gordon: One more.
Joe Lockwood: One more. Please call the speaker.
Sudie Gordon: That’s Carol King on behalf of Dinah or Dinah Brown.
Carol King: Dinah Brown. She also lives at 16050 Sedgwick Drive. We’re
blessed to have a grandmother in our home who’s also very
concerned about the safety. She’s opposed to the venue because
the quality of life and safety of the residents [audio cuts out]
[04:15:39]. We want to keep and protect Milton’s high quality of
life, keep Milton a rural city. That has been a theme throughout the
city, and this venue will change that city lifestyle. Safety, no
oversight of drinking with the BYOB venue. Traffic, no current
infrastructure to support the traffic. It’s not just about controlled
release at the end of an event. New home population increases
from Cherokee County have already overwhelmed our road.
Location of emergency services versus [audio cuts out]
[04:16:09] event to ensure emergency vehicle access, [audio cuts
out] to our home in a timely manner given the strain on the
infrastructure.
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. Ken, I’m gonna ask you a procedure question. Being
on this as a – like a zoning issue, we’ve got time on the other side.
We’ve got time away from the allotted. Would it be appropriate to
ask those in support if they had anything else to say? But they
would have to be speakers that had already turned in a speaker
card, or is that not – or would we just shut it down now?
Ken: Well, we have to give time to both sides, Mr. Mayor.
Joe Lockwood: Correct.
Ken: And obviously, I guess the against side has taken quite a bit longer
or appreciably longer. I do think so, just with the admonition that
only if there’s something perhaps new to say would it be useful at
this time. But we do need to hurry it up, those that – just to allow
them to have [audio cuts out] [04:17:03] time.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
93
Joe Lockwood: But I’m assuming that would have to be someone that already had
filled out a speaker card.
Ken: Oh yes. Oh yes. It would have to be someone that’s offering
something new, perhaps based upon what they heard thus far from
the opponents.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. All right. I would ask the question, is there anyone that was
in support that has filled out a speaker card and has already
spoken, is there anything they would want to add? If so, I would
ask them to step forward.
Audience Member [Inaudible] [04:17:35] already spoken.
Joe Lockwood: This is a discussion we need to have with our attorney. Go ahead,
Mr. Mills, if you have something to add.
Curtis Mills: Even if I had a lot more to add, I would not take 30 minutes of
your time. I do want to accentuate a couple of points, because
we’re lopsided. And if you all remember, I went first, and I really
moved pretty quickly. And I could have dropped [audio cuts out]
[04:18:10] quite a bit, and I think made some more meaningful
points. But I’d just like to say, in addition to what I said before,
and I’ll allow you all – forgive me. That doesn’t sound right. If you
want to, we can go deeper in any of these areas. And if you don’t
want to, we don’t have to. But the recurring themes that I heard
over and over again were traffic, noise, and parking. Each one of
those issues is completely eliminated as a problem in my mind, and
I believe I can prove that, if I haven’t already done it, to anyone’s
satisfaction.
And I’m not poking fingers at anyone. I know people are
concerned. But we have [audio cuts out] [04:19:04], and I’ve said
it over and over again, but it keeps bubbling up. We have
addressed 100% the simultaneous peak parking needs for a
restaurant and a top, and if you approve, 300 cap, use at Matilda’s
onsite. 100% of parking onsite. A couple of alternate plans
prepared. There’s enough land. 300 square feet per in volume. You
can do the math. But essentially, we’ve allowed for 230 spots, and
it doesn’t use up all the land. And oh yeah, as a bonus, that occurs
a handful of nights a year, but it takes up all the commercial space.
Nothing else will be on that parcel generating traffic during the
daytime.
Traffic, you all saw, time of these photos, Friday and Saturday
nights, starting before this window, going through after the
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
94
window. I [audio cuts out] [04:20:07] there for – UGA grade.
What’s the math, from ’99 to now? I’ve been there 18, 19 years,
and I get it. I know the traffic in that intersection. I’m through it
every day, at least a couple of times, and at night. It’s not an issue
at 7:00, 8:30, and 11:00.
And on the noise, I’m gonna allow you to ask, but we ranged – we
tested every neighborhood within one mile of the crossroads with
Matilda music at Matilda volumes, 4:00 to 5:00 on Saturday
afternoon. No music – well, I mean, you heard Doug McCurry, the
neighbor. He was out in his backyard, and his house is 360 feet
from the music venue. When he went inside, he couldn’t hear it.
That’s the closest house, also the only adjoining neighbor. But it’s
the closest house, 360 feet. Mildly hear it on his back deck.
Anecdotally, you couldn’t hear it in any neighborhood, including
Breem Ridge, including Blue Valley, including May [audio cuts
out] [04:21:22], or whatever that other new one is. And I have all
this data if you all would like copies. Hickory Mill on Hickory
Plat, Madison Hall Lane. I don’t know what the subdivision is,
because there’s no house. It’s just got a road sign.
And then on Birmingham Road . . . Killian. Killian Manor at
Birmingham Road. Wait. 49.5 decibels to 64.7 at the top end. It
was 100% road noise. Anyway, you have data here. It’s a non-
issue. So, I’m not gonna burn up more time. There may be other
people that would like to make a comment. And I know you may
have questions. It’s 10:30 now. I’m already crabby, and you guys
must be too. It’s gonna be hard to deal with the detail, but I’ll save
anything else for questions if you like.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. If there’s no one else in court that would like to
speak, I’ll close down the public hearing. Or the public comment,
I’m sorry, not the public hearing. And then you have got some
names and positions to read, correct, Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: Yes, I have –
Joe Lockwood: Cards that were sent in?
Sudie Gordon: Yes. One individual has an affidavit that’s out of jurisdiction. Also
[audio cuts out] [04:23:02]. And that is Mr. Ron Wallace, 13090
[audio cuts out] Road, Milton, Georgia, in support of Curtis Mills.
Parking positions. A correct calculation needs to be considered. If
the average attendance is 150, that does not mean 150 cars.
Normally, there would be at least two people per car, so the
number goes to 75. Some will Uber, some walk or be dropped off.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
95
So, the number of cars reduces even further.
Second, as a former Alpharetta police officer for 11 years, and
working most every Friday and Saturday night, I am not aware of a
single call for service at Matilda’s. Third, I own several music
companies based in Nashville. Our artists tour and play at
numerous events. There is a wide variety of people that come to
our shows. I attend when they play at Matilda’s as well. It was by
far the most respectful crowd we have.
I believe, and rightfully so, there will always be concern for sound,
especially at night, as –
Joe Lockwood: Can I break here and get Ken? I need to call you in here. Did you
say you had an affidavit to read?
Sudie Gordon: Yes. He’s out of the jurisdiction.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. All right. Just want to clarify that. That’s why you’re
reading the whole thing. Yeah.
Sudie Gordon: I think there [audio cuts out] [04:24:20] tolerance in the
residential areas, as bands at football games typically puts out
higher decibels than a small concert would. To some degree, sound
can be controlled to focus towards one direction by using speakers
that do not have side speakers. A roof and sides with studio sound
absorbing material can also help limit sound waves. I have great
respect for the owners and staff at Matilda’s. All cities surrounding
[audio cuts out] have similar venues and are adding more on a
larger scale than Matilda’s. Thank you. Ron Wallace.
And then I have names to read into the record. These individuals
have emailed the elected officials in support. Michelle Glua,
George and Michael Brett, 560 Killen Lane, Milton. Lisa
Hufficker, 2075 Hambrig Grove Drive, Roswell. Curry Miller,
1590 Carr Road, Cumming. Michelle Triggs. Noreen Wen. Christy
Curin. Dexter Edge, 1775 Red Road, Milton. Russell Still, 3330
Cumberland Boulevard, Atlanta. Bob Hill, 535 Hickory Mill Lane,
Milton. Pam Olesh, 1550, Parkside Drive, Milton. Michelle Finn,
4104 Masters Way, Alpharetta. Brian Burns, [audio cuts out] 245
South River Farm Drive, Alpharetta.
Mike Berger, 12145 Claremont Avenue, Alpharetta. Ted and
Katcha France, 575 Hickory Mill Lane, Milton. Hue and Dorothy
Head, 800 Colonial Lane, Milton. Doug and Charna McCurry, 830
Hickory Flat Road, Milton. Debby and Brian Johnson, 770
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
96
Colonial [audio cuts out] in Milton. Caroline Mangrum, 550
Hickory Flat Road, Milton. Emily Thomas, 215 Elaine Drive,
Roswell. Jane Lott, 135 Wintry Berry Court, Roswell. Mindy
Jones, 11870 Little Creek Crossing, Alpharetta. Audrey Shannon,
222 [audio cuts out] [04:26:38] Birmingham Road, Milton. Karen
Curt, 2145 Double Creek Lane, Milton. Thomas Warner, 610
Scarlet Oak Trail, Milton. Isabelle [audio cuts out], 1085 Richman
Glen, Milton. Jennifer Becker, 1200 Lackey Road, Milton. Angel
Muir, 1460 Crabapple Road, Alpharetta. Don Reed, 215 Tour
Court, Milton. Bob McCloud, 715 Drift [audio cuts out] Way,
Alpharetta. Gem [audio cuts out], 860 [audio cuts out] Harper
Drive, Roswell.
Jack Saltil, 2 [audio cuts out] 6 South Main Street, Alpharetta.
[Audio cuts out] Fletcher, 12570 Hopewell Road, Alpharetta.
Tom Letch, 415 Galloway Court, Milton. Tom Genther, 15829
Westbrook Road, Milton. Zishawn Majid, 1201 Peachtree Street,
Atlanta, Georgia. [Audio cuts out] Stable Days Farm, Milton. Jean
Singer, no address. White Wood, 799 Allgood Road, Marietta.
Timothy Letch, 415 Galloway Court, Milton. Thomas Conklin, at
1305 [audio cuts out], Cumming. Steven Gilkenson, 140
Hopewell Grove Drive, Milton. [Audio cuts out] Michelle Anians,
910 Hopewell Place Drive, Milton. Frasier and Amy Lynn, 3660
Juner Ridge, Alpharetta. David Smith, Blue Frog Imports,
Woodstock. Richard and Sandra Radkey, 3790 Galloway Drive,
Roswell.
Karen Sentil, 10610 Timberstone Road, Alpharetta. Alex
Rodriguez, 148 Bimatore Drive, Kenton. Elizabeth Hooper, 761
Eaglesmere Court, Alpharetta. And last, Alex Rodriguez, 148
[audio cuts out] Ward Drive, Canton.
I do have 24 cards that were filled out by individuals that did not
want to speak, that wanted them read into the record that are for
support. Do we want to read those, or?
Joe Lockwood: You can read their names.
Sudie Gordon: Just the names?
Joe Lockwood: Yes.
Sudie Gordon: Lynn Sauder. Do you want addresses to?
Joe Lockwood: That’s fine.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
97
Sudie Gordon: 4740 Lowell Court, Cumming. James Garrett, 790 Hickory Flat.
Joshua Gardner, 1155 Taylor Oaks Drive, Roswell. [Audio cuts
out] Low, 3620 Hutchinson Trace Drive, Cumming. Carol
Abernson, 11035 Spotted Pony Trail, Alpharetta. Will [audio cuts
out] [04:29:32], 4565 Indigo Trace Drive, Alpharetta. Brian
Burns, [audio cuts out] 45 South River Farm Drive, Alpharetta.
Kelly Moyle, 12350 Edinwild Drive, Roswell. Bonnie Lumpkin,
4565 [audio cuts out] Trace Drive. Terry Fisher, 520 Trayburn
View. Alex Nelson, 6245 Sprinkler Lane. Chris Hall, 441 Teleco
Road, Canton. Jane Burke, 417 Manor Ridge View. Lauren Burke,
417 Manor Road, Alpharetta. Michael Ian Zito, 610 Cambridge
Way, Sandy Springs. Terry Baker, 2300 Meadows End, Duluth.
Evan McCloud, 105 Holly Springs, White, Georgia. Jennifer
Rodis, 1950 Roswell Road, Marietta. Lynn Crowlter, 7715
Midway, Alpharetta. Louise Kimouche, 175 Truehead Trail,
Roswell. [Audio cuts out] Wen, 628 Stenover Drive, Milton.
Rudy and Lee Brown, 1370 Millstone Drive. Michael May, 2634
Watercrest Port, Marietta. [Audio cuts out] Node, 825 Greenpoint
Drive, Milton. Hope Winigrad, 305 Gutavisa Drive, Milton. And
that is it.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Now was that all the cards for the –
Sudie Gordon: That’s it for support.
Joe Lockwood: Okay, but is there some for . . .
Sudie Gordon: Opposition, yes.
Joe Lockwood: Opposition. Okay. Read those.
Sudie Gordon: In opposition, I have eight affidavits, for the individuals have
either denoted that they are physically unable to attend or our of
the city jurisdiction. And there are 300 [audio cuts out]
[04:31:42]. Do we want to read each one of those eight?
Ken: Mr. Mayor, I mean, those were our rules [inaudible] [04:31:49],
so.
Sudie Gordon: Yes.
Joe Lockwood: And our policy, so.
Sudie Gordon: First one is from Greg Beauchamp, 500 Hickory Mill Lane, 0.6 of
a mile from 850 Hickory Flat. I oppose this application in its
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
98
entirety. Our previous home in Atlanta was 0.3 miles from a
church that hosted Special Olympics events once a year. On those
days, we had to leave our home because of the loudness. The
sponsor could never control it to an acceptable level and eventually
had to cancel. I do not want to have to leave my home up to 48
times a year because of Matilda’s music. The proposed 85 decibel
level is too high. Other special use permits have been approved at
60 to 65 decibels. Why is the applicant being given preferential
treatment?
Second, excessive loud music can have negative impact on pets,
animals, and wildlife in Birmingham Park. No tests were made
with regard to impact on surrounding animals. Fireworks are a
concern. Why isn’t loud music a concern?
Third, Little River Animal Hospital has a boarding facility we use.
Concerned about the impact of loud noise on boarded pets,
specifically ours. Fourth, Matilda’s supporters rally around the
applicant for previous community work, and Matilda’s because of
their love of the music. Many supporters do not live in Milton, let
alone close to the proposed location, and they appear to have
absolutely no regard for the impact to our quality of life or the
investment we have in or home. Resident concern should carry
more weight than the love of music.
The Planning Commission extended the music season by two
months and provided up to six concerts a year – a month. This
means up to 48 times a year, the quality of life in my home [audio
cuts out] [04:33:39] negatively impacted by loud music at 85
decibels. Unacceptable.
And the next affidavit comes from Debbie Beauchamp at 500
Hickory Mill Lane. Matilda’s has advertised their move to Milton
on their website for some time. They seem rather confident this
application will be approved by City Council. A precedent will be
set for all AG-1 zoned land in Milton. How can future be requests
be denied if this one is granted? This AG-1 land falls outside the
Birmingham Crossroad master plan and should have more
conditions in place, not less, to preserve the rural look and feel of
the Crossroads. The request should be tied to the music venue, not
to the land. If tied to the land and Matilda’s leaves, any type of
music outdoor concert could go. Same thing if the applicant sells
the land.
This music venue should not be approved in perpetuity. The three-
year renewal period should be required, along with periodic
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
99
bimonthly reviews. Conditions should be in place to protect Milton
and the residents who live nearby. Instead, concessions were
granted [audio cuts out] applicant that were not requested. Legally
required buffers and setbacks should not be waived. Attendance
cannot be tracked. The Potters do not sell tickets for a particular
concert. A cap in attendance is meaningless under current ticket
sales policies, which admit kids under 16 free.
Traffic is currently congested at the Crossroads and should be
studied with improvements. There are no pedestrian crosswalks,
which creates a public safety issue. Not enough parking space is
provided for up to 300 concertgoers, although the festival
requirements indicate they have been met. Concern of over [audio
cuts out] parking on Hickory Flat and nearby business parking
lots.
The next affidavit is from John [audio cuts out] Prue at 1159
Breem Drive, Milton. I live less than one half-mile from the
proposed venue at 850 Hickory Flat Road. I am opposed to this
new venue and want the application denied.
Next, Heather Creren at 325 Taylor Glen Drive, Milton, as an
authorized affidavit. We live two miles away and go through the
Crossroads all the time. I am strongly against an outdoor music
venue at the Crossroads and urge that you deny the request. Why
would we possibly want an outdoor music venue in the middle of
the most rural and quiet part of Milton? Why create a destination
location? I don’t want to attract hundreds of people from outside
Milton. I don’t want people jamming overcrowded roads, roads
blocked with cars that cannot find parking spots, and crowds of
pedestrians crossing busy streets, and then hitting our dark and
winding roads after enjoying adult beverages and other less legal
vices. Why [audio cuts out] [04:36:38] possibly invite these
problems?
A music venue makes perfect sense off Highway 9, but not at the
Crossroads. I hope you agree and deny this request. And if not,
think hard about why you would possibly grant nine variances.
Milton has [audio cuts out] bar, and this meets none of the
criteria. But if you decide to allow this, absolutely deny the
reduction and elimination of the buffers and setbacks. This has
been debated and decided. Milton citizens put their money where
their mouth is to preserve land and views. The noise level
recommended is way too high. Don’t allow it.
These permits should not be granted in perpetuity. Give us a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
100
chance to fix this when the realization hits of the mess that was
created. Like Little River Farms, off-duty police should be
required for safety and crowd control. Tie the use permit and
variances granted to Matilda’s, owned by the Potters. Businesses
come and go. Property owners come and go. But variances last
forever. Thank you, and thank you all for your [audio cuts out] to
Milton.
Next, Daniel Cornstein at 1118 Breem Drive in Milton. Thank you
for taking the time to read and listen to our concerns. Question:
Does anyone that benefits from this project live in the immediate
area? Safety is compromised when there are no studies done. We
live less than half a mile from the proposed [audio cuts out]. I
have recommended an injunction just in case it goes through to
allow for an in-depth study, DOT recommendations, noise and
traffic requirements, and changes needed to keep up with the
additional strain to the area. What are the effects? These roads are
not enough to support the additional traffic. The DUI driving in
this area is already high, and these roads are dangerous. Many
studies have to be made.
This is a very residential area, with schools and a small grocery
store. Families with children as well lives here. We don’t even
have the roads lit up enough. And the ones we have existing, most
of them do not work. I think 70% of the lights we do have are not
working. Let’s maintain our roads first and don’t give in so easy
for the bit of profit, until the roads are made safer and are prepared
for the additional traffic property. Safety first. Permits should not
be issued for anything that could bring that much traffic to an area
already strained and getting worse.
We bought in this area with the idea of a mostly rural country.
Don’t mind a bit of growth when smartly and studied properly, not
just from the hip. The noise is pollution. I have experienced
something similar. Don’t mind the noise, as long as they plan on
payment to each homeowner that is being disturbed according to
the perimeters. Otherwise, we have to be mindful of people and
their rights to not be affected in this manner. I oppose the plans.
This is a large residential area two blocks away from the corner.
And the next one is from Kelly Becker, 15625 Canterbury Chase,
Milton. Mayor and Council, please deny the use permit and
concurrent variances requested for a music venue. I am a 25 -year
resident of Milton who lives 1.5 miles from the Crossroads. I have
been following this issue closely and oppose the approval of the
music venue for the following reasons. First, the recommended
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
101
noise standard of 85 decibels is too loud and would set a dangerous
precedent. Second, we should be protecting Birmingham Park and
should not allow such a heavy commercial use on its border. I am
especially concerned about the elimination of buffers at the park
boundaries. The elimination of buffers and setback around much of
the property would not only set a dangerous legal precedent for the
rest of Milton; it is just not in the city’s best interest.
Third, as a mother, a BYOB concert with up to 300 patrons is
troubling. I am concerned about these patrons driving home on
unfamiliar, narrow, and winding country roads late at night in the
dark, at the same time we would also have Milton and Cambridge
high school students driving on the same roads, returning from
sporting events or other after school activities. The lack of any off-
duty police presence at a BYOB concert from a safety standpoint
does not make sense.
Fourth, the lack of due diligence on this proposal is wanting. There
are too many questions at this stage, and it has me questioning the
several procedural errors that have been made and whether a just
outcome is possible.
Fifth, protect beloved Birmingham Crossroads. It was never meant
to be a destination, but rather was intended to serve nearby
residents. Also, please listen to nearby constituents and deny this
use permit.
And I have one from David Diamani 935 Post Oak Close, Milton.
I’m opposed to this item in its current form due to the number of
variances required to grant the permit. The land is clearly not
suitable for the stated purpose, and the variances required make as
such have too dear a net impact on the immediate area surrounding
the property. In particular, the need to clear -cut the land up to the
border of Birmingham Park would do irrevocable damage. Why
would the city ever consider granting any use permit in perpetuity?
This is a concession that limits recourse and is ill-advised, given
the unproven nature of the stated purpose.
The area on this corner was once designated for commercial use
for the residents living in the approximate area, my family
included. A concert venue is not something these residents are
looking for to provide for everyday needs. I respectfully ask that
the city council please deny this request.
And the last one that has an affidavit with it is from Joe Witley,
1250 Birmingham Road, Alpharetta. Dear Mayor and City
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
102
Council, I strongly oppose the building of an entertainment venue
within 100 feet of my office at the southwest corner of
Birmingham Crossroads. I believe my property will suffer
financially from the proposed venue that is inconsistent with the
AG-1 zoning. I ask that you vote on any and all variances to
protect my rights as a property owner.
This proposed venue is a bad idea for the wrong location. First,
parking on the northwest corner is inadequate for the crowds. My
property will suffer from spillover parking. I will have to
access/obtain additional insurance and increase security costs.
Second, there’s been no traffic study of what will become a highly
congested area that will be dangerous and potentially harmful to
pedestrians, children, pets, due to speeding vehicles and the
occasional intoxicated driver. Cars will likely park along the
roadside, given the limited parking.
Third, noise at any decibel will destroy the quiet that exists [audio
cuts out] [04:43:43] Milton homes. I will be unable to use my
office due to noise levels on Friday and Saturday evenings, up to
42 times a year. My nearby peaceful residence will be disrupted by
music, inconsistent with the quiet bucolic life of living in Milton.
Finally, I provided City Manager Steve Crokoff with the attached
emails expressing concerns about due process and evaluation. I
pointed out a highly flawed process, which will forever leave in
doubt the fairness of the [audio cuts out], should the Council and
Mayor accept the variances and not restart the entire process.
I encourage you to do the right thing for the stakeholders and other
nearby businesses and residential property owners like me who are
opposed to these variances, and reject them in their entirety.
And I do have 47 names, individuals, emails, via elected officials
that were in opposition. And I can read their name and address, or
no?
Joe Lockwood: We did on the [audio cuts out] [04:44:45] side.
Sudie Gordon: Yes, we did.
Joe Lockwood: And I would say you could read their names and what city they
live in, Milton or not.
Sudie Gordon: Okay. And then I also have 11 public comment cards that were
filled out for individuals that are here or were here, and I did read
in support their names, and so I can do that also. Lindsay and
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
103
Jeremy Ingbright, Milton, Georgia. Eric Reed, Christina Reed,
Milton, Georgia. Ann Flanagan, Milton. Scott Sawyer, Milton.
Kevin Crow, Milton. Catherine Jackson, Milton. Michael Petcash,
Milton. Leonard Jacklet, Milton. Susanne Eves, Milton. Caroline
Pace, Milton. Barbara Sumeril, Milton. Jill and Mark Wright,
Milton. Deirdre Fisher, Milton. Lenny and Mike Henning, Milton.
Tim Becker, Milton. Lauren Holmes, Milton. Caroline
Lauderbach, Milton. Jessica Brown, Milton. Neil Wells and Jeff
Posie, Milton.
Gail Aynie, Milton. Jeff Beardsley, Milton. [Audio cuts out]
Cathy Bronovich, Milton. Peter Hernandez, Milton. Connie
Beardsley, Milton. Mike and Laura Garguelo, Milton. Karen
Larango, Milton. Julia Zonar Bailey, Milton. Katie Kenyan,
Alpharetta. Amy Saunders, Milton. Taylor and Pam Mackey,
Milton. Harold Crumby – excuse me, Cumby – Milton. Joe
Whitley, Atlanta. Cleveland Slater, Milton. Kim Posie, Milton.
Beth Wilson, Milton. Karen Laranjean, Milton. Jim Costello,
Milton. Kiera Davis, Milton. Arnold Endumore, Milton. Kevin
[audio cuts out], Milton. Kelly Becker, Milton. Daniel Cornstein,
Milton. John Procter, Milton.
And then we have Jordan Procter. It doesn’t give a city. John
Procter. It’s on Breem Drive, so, Milton. Kara Davis, Milton. Eric
and Christine Reed, Milton. Brian and Grayon Bierhart, Milton.
Greg Chase, Milton. Tim and Natalie Lester, Milton. Daniel and
Laura Cornstein, Milton. Sherry Black, Milton. John Procter,
Milton. Mike Henning, Milton. And that is all, sir.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I’m gonna close the public hearing. I’m gonna ask to take a
five-minute break. Everybody good with that? Okay. What do we
need to do it?
Ken: Just a motion to recess, Mr. Mayor.
Joe Lockwood: Just a motion to recess when we get back.
Ken: Yes.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah. We’ll take a five-minute break. [Background
conversation] [Silence from 04:48:07 to 04:55:17]
All right, Sudie. I need a motion to reconvene.
Peyton Jamison I make a motion to reconvene the meeting.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
104
Joe Lockwood: Do I have a second?
Rick Mohrig Second.
Joe Lockwood: I have a motion and second to reconvene. All in favor, please say
aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: That’s unanimous, Sudie. All right, Ken. If everyone could please
take a seat, we are reconvened.
Ken: Mr. Mayor, at this time, the public hearing is over. The
deliberations, questions.
Joe Lockwood: The public hearing is over. I’m gonna open it up to questions for
staff or the applicant from the council. Joe.
Joe Longoria: Sudie, did we finish the opposition side details?
Sudie Gordon: Yes, we did.
Joe Longoria: Okay, we did?
Sudie Gordon: Yes, sir.
Joe Longoria: It sort of all blended together, so I just wanted to make sure.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Do I have any questions for staff or the applicant from
council? Peyton, go ahead.
Peyton Jamison: I have some questions for the applicant, or actually, the operator.
Would you come forward, please? Thank you for coming and
spending the night with us.
Mary Jane Potter: My pleasure.
Peyton Jamison: I went to the May 26th event at Matilda’s, because I thought that
was a good idea for me to go and take a look at what y’all are
doing. So, I had some questions about your business. And so, my
questions are, in the past couple years – or could you give me a
timeframe of your last 15 years in business of what y’all started as
and what it is now, as far as how many concerts do y’all usually
have in an average year? What days of the week are they?
Mary Jane Potter: Well, concerts are kind of reliant on the weather. So, usually, early
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
105
April is too early. We’ve found over the years that it can be too
rainy and too risky to book concerts in early April. This year, my
first concert was April 28th. And normally, it would be May
through the end of October. This year, we did one as late as
December. And the reason we did that was because everyone
thought that that was gonna be the last concert at Matilda’s at that
location. So, we went ahead and did one. It was risky, but we were
lucky that night, and the weather was good, so.
Peyton Jamison: And what days of the week are they usually on, Friday or
Saturday?
Mary Jane Potter: We like to do only one night a week, just because it’s easier on us.
And we like to concentrate the crowd into one night. And
generally, the 300 is so rare that it’s hardly even worth mentioning.
Normally, I mean – well . . . Yes. Well, Curtis was just saying,
would you give them the example of this last week. The Saturday
night concert was rained out. So, I will be rescheduling that band
for this coming Friday. That’s an example of when we might have
a Friday night and a Saturday night concert. But normally, there’ll
only be one concert a week, and it’ll be on Saturday night.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. And how often do you plan these concerts in advance?
When you have – or it rained – I mean, is far as when you’re
booking these concerts, how often are you planning?
Mary Jane Potter: Well, I have to book the concerts pretty far in advance to get the
bands lined up. So, that is why we have gone ahead and booked
this season, and we’ll just have to deal with it as it comes. If I have
to, I might have to cancel the remainder of them.
Peyton Jamison: Two more quick questions. I heard vendors. When I was at
Matilda’s, I didn’t see any vendors selling anything. Are y’all
planning on that in Milton?
Mary Jane Potter: We don’t have vendors selling.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. And then, how many noise complaints have you had in your
15 years?
Mary Jane Potter: Zero.
Peyton Jamison: And how many times have the police came in the last 15 years?
Mary Jane Potter: One, and it was not due to anything a patron had done.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
106
Peyton Jamison: Thank you.
Mary Jane Potter: Mm-hmm.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Joe.
Joe Longoria: Thank you guys for hanging in with us.
Mary Jane Potter: No problem.
Joe Longoria: I do have a couple of questions as well. I promise not to repeat
anything that’s already been asked.
Mary Jane Potter: Okay.
Joe Longoria: One of the questions and one of the concerns that our citizens have
has to do with sound and certain levels. I can’t say that I’m a
patron of Matilda’s. I have been a few times, enjoyed myself
immensely. But it was a couple of times far between one another. I
don’t remember, do the performers operate their own equipment?
That’s what I remember. Or is there a sound engineer running a
soundboard at the event?
Mary Jane Potter: Well, over the years, it has evolved into where we have a sound
engineer. Our own equipment and a sound engineer.
Joe Longoria: So, the sound engineer is in complete control of the level of sound
that’s coming out –
Mary Jane Potter: That’s right. Mm-hmm.
Joe Longoria: d – of the performer’s equipment? Is that right?
Mary Jane Potter: Right.
Mark Potter: That’s true. But we also kind of are hearing the sound too. And so,
if it’s at a certain level that we don’t feel like is right, we go to the
sound engineer and we say, you gotta lower it a little bit.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: Can I piggyback on that too? Just one question.
Joe Longoria: Yeah.
Joe Lockwood: And let’s say there was a set decibel level, a limit. Is it safe to say
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
107
that if you hit that limit at a boundary, that they could tweak it
down if there was a complaint or something?
Mary Jane Potter: Sure. Mm-hmm.
Joe Lockwood: You could adjust that?
Mary Jane Potter: I doubt we would hit that 85.
Joe Lockwood: Well, even if it were less?
Mary Jane Potter: Because it’s too close to the stage. That’s too loud.
Mark Potter: Right.
Joe Lockwood: Keep going, Joe.
Joe Longoria: Right. Yeah. I would add that for it to be 85 decibels at the
property level, it’s got to be higher than that at the stage.
Mary Jane Potter: Oh, you wouldn’t even be able to stand it.
Joe Longoria: And the concerts that I’ve gone to, the performers were always in
danger of being drowned out by the audience. So, I don’t see that
as really the issue. Do you know how many – at your current
location, how many parking spaces exist on that property? I
remember parking between two pine trees, and I was a little bit
concerned that I was even gonna fit in there, but.
Mary Jane Potter: Well, the parking was kind of in the front yard, in our little parking
lot, to the right of Matilda’s, all the way to the shopping center.
Joe Longoria: So, do you have any idea how many cars you could fit?
Mary Jane Potter: Well, if we had 150 people, I would say maybe there was 75 cars,
because most of the time, it’s two people to a car. Sometimes it’s
more.
Joe Longoria: Right, right. Okay. Yeah, that’s all. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Rick, you have?
Rick Mohrig: Yes. The proposed venue, how does that compare from a footprint
to what you have today, the way you’ve been operating for the last
15 years?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
108
Mary Jane Potter: Well, the Matilda’s venue that we’ve been at, 50 feet out is a large
crowd. And so, there was a hundred feet, and the extra 50 feet was
where kids would go back into the back field and play. And so, the
first 50 feet could hold anywhere from 150 to 250 people. They
just would cluster in a little tighter with a higher volume of people.
But it holds it just fine.
Rick Mohrig: So, I guess what I heard as far as the size of the new venue, you’re
basically looking at replicating that from the stage, 50 feet where
you have your audience, and then additional feet, 50 feet beyond
that.
Mary Jane Potter: I don’t know that we would have 50 feet beyond that for the kids’
play area. I mean, that was just a really generous, large field, so it’s
really not necessary to have that much space for them.
Rick Mohrig: And I guess to piggyback off from what Joe had asked, do you
have any idea what your current average decibels are? We’ve got –
right now, there was a proposal that said 85. The question is, what
is it if you were really asking for, or what could you live with, with
the way you run your venue today? Because what I’ve heard from
a lot of people, neighbors, their concern is noise level and what’s
gonna carry in the evening when things are still and sound travels a
little bit further. So, I guess my question is, what would you be
looking for, really, from a decibel standpoint? Do you have any
idea?
Curtis Mills: I know you can answer that, but as the applicant, I think I need to
address it as well. So, why don’t you go ahead, since he asked you.
But I have a – we didn’t ask for 85. I’ve never asked for 85. I just
said we can’t do 60, because road noise is higher than 60.
Joe Lockwood: Can I, while we’re talking about this, clarify this with staff? I
believe the 85 came from our commercial side. And since part of
this property was C-1, that’s where the 85 came from.
Curtis Mills: But it’s never – and we can get into detail on that.
Joe Lockwood: It’s in our ordinance for commercials.
Curtis Mills: Why don’t you, if you want to . . .
Mary Jane Potter: That’s all right. Well, I think 85, I would be telling our sound
person to turn it down.
Curtis Mills We were at 85 decibels 25 feet in front of the directional speakers,
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
109
and it dissipates rapidly from there. Doug McCurry, who spoke
earlier, at his house, 360 feet away, we were at 60.3 decibels, and
at the property line, right behind it. And this is the acid test
measurement right here. It’s 60 feet behind where the henhouse
would be and where the stage would be. It was 70.1 in our test on
Saturday, where we actually had directional speakers. First test
was omnidirectional, more conservative. It’s actually gonna be
pointing away. 70.1. That’s below the 75 peak that’s in the festival
ordinance. It’s not constructed for music. But it’s above 60. So, we
fail the crowd noise ordinance. We don’t even nearly fail the
Milton music noise level ordinance. We don’t approach 85
anywhere, except right in front of the stage. And then, like Doug
said, he couldn’t even hear it when he went in his house. So,
anyway. If you’d like to add anything to that.
Mary Jane Potter: No.
Rick Mohrig: I guess a follow-up question. Then were you proposing to put or
where you’ve placed on there the henhouse or the stage area, the
speakers and the sound are directed towards the commercial node,
towards the Birmingham Crossroads or Publix, the Shell gas
station, the liquor store? Is that the direction that you have?
Mary Jane Potter: Mm-hmm.
Rick Mohrig: Have your speakers would be – you’re not going back towards the
residential, the other direction.
Mary Jane Potter: No.
Curtis Mills: Intentionally. I mean, we – there were a bunch of planning curves
that crossed for the siting location. I mean, the 430 feet back from
Hickory Flat Road, not an accident. We wanted to tuck it back in
the trees so it wouldn’t be seen, and so it would be defused by the
trees, and so on and so forth. And part of the reason for siting the
house the way it was is where it would be pointed through a
maximum of trees and away from any – you get to Killian Manor.
This isn’t exactly right. But you get to Killian Manor on
Birmingham Road before you get to the first subdivision and direct
speaker line, if that makes any sense, if you know where I’m
talking about. It’s right across from Jim Bell’s place or Laura
Rencher, who spoke earlier. If you can picture that.
So, the quadrant moving down Birmingham Highway, for
example, is out of line by 90 degrees. And by the time you get
down to Mayfair and Blue Valley, you’re way out of line. By the
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
110
same token, on Hickory Flat, Hickory Mill and that new road, the
new subdivision doesn’t have a sign up yet, they’re almost behind
it.
Rick Mohrig: They’re further west and south.
Curtis Mills: Yes. Yeah. So, directionally, you have to have a map. It may not
make sense. But we did align it that way on purpose for tree break
and a maximum distance to the closest neighborhood, and siting so
we wouldn’t have to take out trees. It fits kind of perfectly tucked
back in this little grove. Oh, and that’s – sorry, trees. I’ve heard
clear-cut twice. Zero trees coming down. That’s a pretty big
difference, clear-cut and zero. It’s zero. So, that was part of our
siting logic, just to be clear.
Joe Lockwood: Go ahead, Rick. You finish up.
Rick Mohrig: I guess to follow up on that too, when you look to the north, the
north of the parcel that we’re talking about, I kind of see where
you’re asking. The position is more kind of in the center, or just
before you get into the wider part. Where it abuts, because I’ve
heard some concerns about Birmingham Park and the impact of
noise on Birmingham Park, and the clear-cutting. Why would you
need as – I think, can you reduce the buffer on the north side where
it abuts the park?
Curtis Miller: Zero. There is no clear-cutting. And nothing is happening between
there and the park. It’s 200 feet from the corner. So, it’s 260 feet
behind the henhouse. No activity behind there. Practically maybe,
if I’d had any idea what we were gonna get into here, we might
have looked at doing everything on the other side and just, I don’t
know, tucking it away more. But the fact is, with that 100-foot
easement, 50 and 50 on each side of the power line, crossing
through that for any reason is just problematic. So, we stop all
activity on this side of the easement, if that makes sense.
Rick Mohrig: Yeah, I was just trying to figure out in part of the variance why
that was – it seemed like the setback was eliminated, and I didn’t
understand why, if that’s not gonna be touched and you got the
power easement, why that would be reduced down to zero next to
the park.
Mark Potter: Septic system in the future, initial and reserve. So, any future uses
of the property. You have to have initial and reserve septic system
capability. So, the thought of putting a buffer on there that would
then take any use of that property in case of a catastrophic failure
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
111
of a septic system, then your hands are completely tied.
Curtis Miller: In these large-scale – and I learned a lot about this. I know a fair
amount about residential septic personally. I didn’t know much
about commercial septic, and it’s a horse of a different color. So,
there’s a certain kind of system that you can use that reduces drain
field volume in half, but your reserve has to be 100%, even if you
can cut it in half on the primary. So, the reserve drain field
requirements for the restaurant, for example, are massive. The
primary plus, the reserve, is almost three-quarters of an acre.
Boom. So, the drain field area is . . .
Rick Mohrig: That’s the reserve. And then just one last question, and then I’ll
yield. Along that line, have you done perc tests? I know when –
Curtis Miller: Oh yeah.
Rick Mohrig: So, you’ve already done the soils?
Curtis Miller: Yeah. And another comment that was made about locating that,
because of the stream buffers, because of the lowland, because of
the soil, on that six-and-a-half acres, there’s relatively little that
will perc. And I have soil maps, and you all will be welcome to
any of that. But where that is drawn out on the diagram is
essentially the only place it percs well enough to do anything with
volume. I mean, it percs in spots. For example, if we put what we
have in mind, what we hope to do, sort of an outhouse – that’s my
word, not Mary Jane’s or Mark’s – but sort of outhouse bathrooms
that are accessible by the public, they would probably be on their
own little dedicated house type septic. Maybe it’s not 1,500
gallons, but whatever was required, because it wouldn’t generate
any fluids. That would be in a different place. Had that perc tested
too, but the volume’s so low, there’s not much above threshold
there, so.
Joe Lockwood: And we’ll keep on moving. I want to ask about the – go back to the
sound. We were talking about the sound. And I certainly
understand everybody’s concern about sound. And when you talk
about 85 decibels, I do want to clarify, and Steve can help me with
that, that the 85 was mentioned or put in the application by staff
because that’s what our commercial decibel level is. Obviously,
under the C-1 part there. The question being, and I’ll ask you guys
and staff and all this, obviously, nobody wants to have 85 decibels
near them. And the sound dissipates.
If it’s 85 right there at the commercial, at the C-1 part, as you go
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
112
out – and again, I don’t know the calculation – but per what you’re
saying your tests were, towards the neighborhoods, it was about 60
decibels, right? 60, 65? So, I’m just wondering if there’s a way to
put a parameter where, instead of looking at it right at the property
line at the C-1 and go out maybe to the road or across the road to
where it affects any neighbors, and have a lower decibel rating.
Just kind of throwing that out there. I don’t know if there’s any –
rather than saying 85, it may be 85 20 feet off the speakers, but –
or right beside the restaurant, but then you go out 50 feet, 75 feet . .
.
Curtis Mills: The dilemma gets a little technical. Not too technical. But the
festival code is 60 continuous, which is sort of an average number
– 60 continuous, 75 peak. And Milton’s code is 85 continuous. So,
if it was 75 continuous, we’re under that everywhere. Everywhere
we tested. One location, not much under it, but it was road noise. It
was trucks and whatnot when you took the reading. So, I mean, it’s
11:35. Not the best time to be hip shooting big commitments. But
we don’t hit 75 anywhere, period. And I mean, we hit 71.1 60 feet
behind the building. It’s directional. It’s away. But that’s pretty
close. That is the closest residential property line, the one that
defines what you have to meet. And even though the house is 360
feet further away, we had to meet it for that. So, the issue is the 60
continuous, not needing more than 75 peak. Two different
measures.
Joe Lockwood: Okay, I’ll hold that thought. But Rick, if you’d . . .
Rick Mohrig: I’m still thinking. You got it.
Joe Lockwood: Matt, did . . .
Matt Kunz: Yeah, a couple questions on that. So, Curtis, are those the decibel
sound-reading engineering tests in your hands that you have there?
Curtis Mills: Yeah.
Matt Kunz: Could you pass that here so we could see that as well?
Curtis Mills: Yeah.
Matt Kunz: So we can have that? And you said your sound engineer is here as
well? Is that right? Your sound engineer is here as well?
Curtis Mills: Yeah, Danny Bisen. I only made nine copies.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
113
Matt Kunz: That’s okay. We’ll share. We’ll share.
Joe Lockwood: Just go ahead and give them to Carter, and we’ll share. Pass one
down.
Curtis Mills: This is Danny Bisen, and you can introduce him, Mary Jane, if
you’d like.
Mary Jane Potter: Well, Danny has been doing our sound for the last four or five
years.
Danny Bisen: Five years now.
Mary Jane Potter: So, he’s our expert.
Matt Kunz: He’s the guy.
Mary Jane Potter: Mm-hmm.
Matt Kunz: So, Danny, obviously we have a lot of people that are concerned.
And staff was not involved in any tests that you have done from
the [crosstalk] [05:18:52], right?
Danny Bisen: Correct.
Matt Kunz: And no residents were alerted of any tests that you were doing at
the time, correct?
Danny Bisen: Correct.
Matt Kunz: So, tell everybody here why we should believe you. Does that
make sense?
Danny Bisen: Well, first of all, I’m in independent contractor.
Matt Kunz: Right.
Danny Bisen: I don’t work for anybody on salary or anything like that. Why you
should believe me is that because in my career, it’s my job to
protect not only the venue, but to protect myself. I’m not going to
allow excess noise or excess sound to invade my ears and ruin my
job. Why you should believe me? I don’t have a vested interest in
this. I’m an independent contractor. Yes, I do work for them, but I
work for a lot of other people also. And the readings that I got
were actually a worst case scenario type of thing, where the music
was going on the entire time. One interesting aspect is while we
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
114
were doing these tests at a maximum volume, it sometimes got a
little bit loud at the venue or 20 feet out from the venue. And we
were doing it for over two hours. In every neighborhood that we
went to, including the edges of the property, we were below 60 dB.
And not one resident that we know of complained to anybody else
about the fact that we were blaring this noise at that venue for over
two-and-a-half hours. I just consider that kind of interesting.
Curtis Mills: If I could add one trailer point onto that. We weren’t required to do
any tests. I mean, all we had to do was show up with the variances.
You might not like it. I felt obliged. Test number one, we
conducted to see if I could drop this variance request, which I
really wanted to do. And we failed on the 60. And so, I couldn’t
drop it. Test number two was when all this freight train and ear
damage and OSHA protection . . . scare tactic started bubbling.
And I felt like – I mean, neighborhoods right around where I live –
I live one mile north of the Crossroads, directly across the street
from Blue Valley. I have zero interest in driving my neighbors and
seeing them stick my middle finger up at me because the music’s
too loud, right?
So, we then organized and didn’t really pull it together till Friday,
but really wanted to do another test focusing on neighborhoods
instead of property lines, which was the acid test that I was after on
the first set. We did the second set really just not to prove anything
to anyone, but to satisfy ourselves. Are we crazy? Gosh, maybe I
did ask for 85 decibels, and I just completely forgot, right?
Whatever. But that’s why we did it. We didn’t have to, and if you
don’t want to take the readings as fact, that’s certainly up to you.
But I will say anecdotally, Doug McCurry stood up here and said,
“When I went into my house, I couldn’t hear it.” Closest house in
Milton. And nobody else that I’ve –
Joe Longoria: Well, there’s a reason testing is not required.
Joe Lockwood: Joe.
Joe Longoria: Sorry.
Matt Kunz: It’s all right. So, Danny, engineering, sound engineering degree –
where do you go to school for that? How is that licensing, all that
stuff?
Danny Bisen: Oh, I’ve been in the industry for 40 years. I do not have a degree in
audio engineering, but I do have a lot of album credits to my name
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
115
and concert credits that I can certainly give you that if you need
credentials behind that.
Matt Kunz: That’s okay.
Danny Bisen: But no, I do not have a degree in audio technology.
Matt Kunz: Okay. That’s okay. You can go, Joe.
Joe Lockwood: Go ahead, Joe.
Joe Longoria: Sorry. Sorry about that.
Matt Kunz: That’s all right.
Joe Longoria: There’s a reason we don’t require testing beforehand. That’s
because it’s impossible to recreate the conditions that are gonna
exist the night of an event. And the law and ordinance is there to
prevent abuse of the surrounding community by the operators or by
the event itself. I won’t say the operators, because I don’t want to
put you –
Danny Bisen: That would be me. I’m the guy with the knobs.
Joe Longoria: Exactly. So, any testing that’s done is sort of immaterial, because
we didn’t have the same number of people. The humidity wasn’t
the same. It wasn’t the same time of year. It wasn’t the same
temperature. I mean, so many different things impact for noise.
Curtis Mills From hour to hour, traffic volume changes. I mean, it’s . . .
Joe Longoria: Exactly. So, I mean, it was nice of you guys to try to do that. But –
Danny Bisen: We did it more for our own satisfaction that we would not be a bad
neighbor. [Crosstalk] [05:23:49]
Joe Lockwood: Step in there, Joe, but really, the proof in the pudding’s gonna be if
you were actually there having a concert, and if there was a
complaint, and our police go and measure the decibels at certain
distances.
Joe Longoria: Exactly.
Joe Lockwood: And then you’ve got to adjust yours down.
Mary Jane Potter: Mm-hmm.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
116
Joe Longoria So, Mary Jane and Mark, one of the – to me, everything that
everyone is worried about in terms of this special use is driven by
the number of people that are gonna attend, okay? If there are 10
people that are in attendance, we’re not gonna have a traffic
problem. We’re not gonna have a noise problem. We’re not gonna
have any problems. If there are 350 people that show up, we’re
gonna have some of those things. The question I for you is, how do
you guys track attendance? How do you know how many show
up?
Mary Jane Potter: We do sell tickets that people can use at future concerts. And the
reason we do that is just like last week, when we had a rainout,
instead of having to do a concert in the rain, we just tell people,
you can use that ticket for a future concert. And the way we track
how many people are attending is we give them wristbands. So, we
know how many wristbands we put on in a night.
Joe Longoria But you’ve never had a challenge from your current location to
restrict or limit attendance to a certain number.
Mary Jane Potter: No. I’m the most restrictive person. I don’t want, usually, 300
people. It’s just a bigger headache. I’m happy with 150. 200 is a
nice number. Anything from 200 to 300, I’d just as soon it not go
there.
Joe Longoria Sure.
Mary Jane Potter: But it does, every once in a while, for a band that’s particularly
popular. And those nights are good.
Joe Longoria So, if we tell you that you have to limit attendance to 150 people or
200 people, how are you gonna manage that?
Mary Jane Potter: Well, if you told me that we were gonna have to do that, then when
I got to that amount of wristbands, I would just say –
Mark Potter: All full.
Mary Jane Potter: Yeah, we’re full.
Joe Longoria Okay. All right.
Joe Lockwood: And I have a question on that too. Assuming there was a number,
and again, I know it’s hard to come up exactly – for you to forecast
exactly what you need. But let’s say in the event that you had a
concert where you anticipated 300 people – it’s this great band or
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
117
whatever, can you predict that out enough to where if that wasn’t
allowed, but there was a special one-time use permit – we do that.
We have festivals that – they had one out here on the Green last
week where they had to get a special permit. They had to get so
many police officers and this type of stuff. Would that be an option
too if, on a special occasion, you had more than what the number
was, but there was other requirements that you had to do to make
sure there wasn’t issues with it?
Mary Jane Potter: Yeah. We could do that.
Joe Lockwood: I’m wondering if that might be an option too.
Mary Jane Potter: I mean, there are a couple of bands that I am sure will draw over
200, 200 to 250 to 275. But then, the one that drew 275 this year, I
think was a combination of the fact that they thought it was the last
concert ever at Matilda’s. And then things changed, and we were
able to do five more concerts at the beginning of this year. But at
the time that we scheduled that, and it as in December, which we
would hardly ever have that many people show up to a December
concert. And I wouldn’t even book one normally, because it’s so
risky. But that was a 275, and it was partly because it was Farewell
Angelina, which is an extremely popular band, and the fact that it
was – everyone thought it was gonna be the last concert there.
Joe Longoria Okay. Do you think –
Mary Jane Potter: Normally, 150 people is an average crowd.
Joe Longoria Do you know how many events you put on last year?
Mary Jane Potter: No, I can’t remember. But if we did Friday and Saturday night, or
six concerts over the period of time that you’re talking about, that
would be 36. And we don’t do Friday and Saturday concerts. So,
we’re only talking about six.
Curtis Mills But you’re doing Friday and Saturday this weekend, but it’s
making up for the one –
Mark Potter Just a makeup one.
Mary Jane Potter: Yeah, it’s a makeup. So, normally, we only do Saturday nights,
unless some circumstance causes us to need to do it on a Friday
night.
Joe Lockwood: Would you consider it problematic if you had to manage your
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
118
business with a set number of events that you were allowed? In
other words, if we said, as part of the special use permit, that there
were only 30 events allowed, and you could plan those for
whenever you wanted to plan them, but you only had 30, is that
gonna make it difficult to manage your business?
Mary Jane Potter: Well, I mean, we’d be losing money if we did it that way. I mean,
if we’re doing concerts six months, and we’re doing four concerts,
just say everything goes well, and we’re doing four concerts, that’s
just 24 concerts. If we add a Friday night here and there, that’s still
under 30. But it’s hard to say, because some nights are zero nights,
and some nights will be 250 people. And that kind of makes up for
the zero nights.
Joe Longoria You’ve had a zero night?
Mary Jane Potter: We had one last week.
Joe Lockwood: The rainout. They had a rainout.
Joe Longoria Oh, right. You scheduled it on the wrong day. I’m telling you.
Mary Jane Potter: Yeah. That’s the problem. You have to schedule them months in
advance.
Joe Longoria Okay.
Joe Lockwood: All right. Peyton, and then Matt.
Peyton Jamison: Quick question. This may be for staff. What’s our current noise
ordinance for AG-1? Do we have a decibel level for that?
Carter Lucas For a commercial venue, it’s the 85. So, for an amplified music,
not necessarily taking into consideration the zoning, the amplified
music component of it is 85, from a commercial establishment, as
this would be.
Peyton Jamison: Well, what’s the residential? What’s our regular AG-1 zoning? 65?
65, is that what it is?
Carter Lucas Yeah, I think that probably varies, depending on time and time of
the activity.
Peyton Jamison: And then on Little River, was that 65 peak, or is that a continuous?
Do you remember on that one?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
119
Robyn MacDonald I believe that they had us lower for that latest modification, where
they were adding the barn in the front. They had a modification to
Little River Farms, where they added – they didn’t add it, but they
were saying that they’re gonna be using it for an additional
performance – not performance. I’m confusing it. A venue. So, I’d
have to look it up. But it was lower, I believe, than 60, that they
wanted the sound to be, because of the subdivision across the street
on Taylor.
Peyton Jamison: But was that different than the original one that we did that’s in the
back? So, there was two different?
Robyn MacDonald Correct, yes.
Peyton Jamison: All right, so which . . .
Robyn MacDonald I’d have to look it up. I can’t tell you that.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. I was just curious what both of those are and if they’re a
continuous or not.
Matt Kunz But the measurement was taken at the road, right?
Peyton Jamison: At the property line, right?
Robyn MacDonald Right, which was very – the barn is very close. Because we went
out there, I believe, and you all went out there when they did the
sound, so. Before the Planning Commission.
Peyton Jamison I just have a quick question on the enforcement, because this came
up in a question with residents. So, based on your noise test, if it’s
71 continuous at the nearest property line, but everywhere else, it’s
under 65, if someone makes a complaint in Madison Hall, or it’s
64.7, and they say it’s too loud, does the police officer go to the
Madison Hall subdivision and measure it there, or just because
they got a complaint, does the police officer have a right to go to
the nearest property line to measure the decibel level?
Curtis Mills: Yeah, I think that’s where the ordinance applies.
Peyton Jamison So, I can make a – so I was just curious. This might be a question
for staff. I can make a complaint at Blue Valley saying the noise is
loud. You can faintly hear it. But can that officer go to the nearest
property line?
Steve Krokoff: I’m in the noise ordinance right now trying to find the answer to
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
120
your other question, but I believe it’s at the complainant’s property
line. I’ll check to confirm that as well.
Peyton Jamison But he can’t just – every time, he just can’t go walk on that corner
and just make noise readings, if that property owner’s not making
the complaint.
Steve Krokoff I’ll let you know answers on both questions.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. Okay.
Ken: Mr. Mayor, does the council have any further questions for the
applicants?
Joe Lockwood: Matt, did you?
Matt Kunz: Mine are mostly for the staff.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I do. With parking, what I’m hearing, number one concern
is sound and then parking. And I know, Mr. Mills, you mentioned
parking. You could do it onsite. I know the business owners
around there were worried about spillover and things like that.
Curtis Mills: Yeah. I keep hearing that, and I keep saying, we’re going to do
100% parking onsite. I just don’t understand why this keeps
bubbling up.
Joe Lockwood: And what are you basing that on? And I say that because if there
was 150 people there or if there was 250 –
Curtis Mills: Giant step back. When we came into this, we were told, like
Crabapple, that the Crossroad corners were shared parking corners.
And that was – (the lights go out in the room)
Joe Lockwood: It’s time to go.
Audience Member That’s a cue.
Curtis Mills: Everybody keep their hands to themselves. Sorry. This is Mary
Jane.
Joe Lockwood: So, the question is, though, parking.
Curtis Mills: Yes. So, we planned on four corners, and we came in, and I talked
with Mr. Jacklet, and he was fine with it, and it all sounded that –
he and I are on the same corner, our offices. It all sounded fine.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
121
And then it began to unravel when we figured out that the inter-
corner agreements were not consistent. Robyn, forgive me if I’m
getting this wrong. But it doesn’t really matter, because once it
bubbled up that no one could really be required to do the shared
parking, I was faced with either we shut down or I pony up the rest
of the land to do it. And that’s what I decided to do. And we have
2.7 acres in front of the building between Hickory flat and where
the henhouse would be. I had hoped we’d do some other retail-
oriented stuff with it. And there may be a little bit of room. But I
just decided to sort of double down on this and say, fine. You
know what? We’ll do all the parking. Scott’s developed a couple of
plan alternatives.
Scott Reece: Yeah, the parking, when we first went in, I met with Robyn, and
it’s the city staff position not to create gigantic parking areas for no
reason. So, you have a parking design equation for a use permit.
And whether you agree with it or disagree with it, it’s what your
ordinance says. And it’s 22 spaces. Is that correct?
Carter Lucas That’s right.
Robyn MacDonald: Correct.
Scott Reece: Okay. So, we more than doubled it. Now, whether that’s right or
wrong, that’s what the city requires, is 22 spaces. So, Carter had
made a request to me earlier. We were on another job. So, we went
out and looked at it. History of the property was, it was the Buice’s
store equipment yard there. So, you have a heavily pack ed –
there’s no top soil. Just the underlay, but with gravel scattered in
the grass. So, you’ve got a gravel parking lot existing that was
been there since the Buice Store era and the Wilburn Rudys. So, it
more than carries the 44 spaces.
Then there’s also eight spaces on the east side of the store running
along north from the intersection of the Crossroads of Birmingham
Highway. And then, I did a layout, and there’s well over 130, 140.
It depends upon how far you want to go up. But there are plenty of
parking spaces. And this would be a three times a month, four
times a month parking area. So, on this, my opinion, and I think
Carter shares with this, this compacted area of gravel and grass
would be completely sufficient for once, three times a week.
Joe Lockwood: I’m gonna have to cut you off here due to time. But so, basically
what you’re saying, the 44 plus eight plus the other parking lot, in
your calculations, there’s plenty of onsite parking. Procedure-wise,
I’m gonna stop you guys for one second. We have a rule –
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
122
Ken: Yeah, Mr. Mayor, you’re up against a hard stop. Rules provide that
a city council meeting should not extend beyond 12:00. And in the
event that business is not concluded prior to that time, the
remaining agenda, unless otherwise extended by a majority vote of
the council, shall be deferred. So, the council does have the
availability, if you wanted to make a motion to extend this meeting
and the finishing of the agenda past midnight. That would be in
order, if that is [crosstalk] [05:39:20].
Joe Lockwood: Since everybody’s been through here and put all this time in, I’d
like to extend this meeting. But I’ll need a motion from council.
Do we need to put a time on it, or just?
Ken: You don’t. You just need to get a [crosstalk] [05:39:34].
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Joe Longoria: Mayor, I move to extend the meeting past the 12:00 midnight
deadline.
Matt Kunz: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion to extend the meeting past the 12:00
midnight deadline from Councilmember Longoria, with a second
from Councilmember Kunz. All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed?
Rick Mohrig Just one quick discussion or question. This is an extension only to
finish this item. Are we saying we’re gonna go through –
Joe Lockwood: The agenda. The agenda.
Ken: You’re right. This is an extension for the entirety of the agenda.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah.
Peyton Jamison Let’s do it.
Joe Lockwood: All right. I have a motion and a second. All in favor, please say
aye.
Group: Aye.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
123
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? Okay. All right. Is there any more questions for the
applicant, and then we’ll go to staff? Go ahead.
Peyton Jamison I mean, you all talk about this parking plan. Do you all have it?
Can I see it? Just like the sound stuff?
Curtis Mills: There’s actually two scenarios. And because we have trail work to
do, consider them accurate but conceptual.
Scott Reece: Yeah.
Joe Lockwood: Is there any way to put that up on a screen so that everybody can
see that, or technology-wise, or are we . . .
Ken: We should.
Joe Lockwood: Just for the audience’s sake, I’d like to do that, if we can. But you
can keep talking. But that way . . .
Rick Mohrig: I had a question.
Joe Lockwood: All right. Go ahead. Rick?
Rick Mohrig: I guess Curtis or Scott, do you have a single egress and ingress
going into this parking for other than the one side of the store?
Because I heard some of the other concerns were about traffic and
–
Scott Reece: We have two curb cuts that the city approved for the Wilburn
Rudys.
Rick Mohrig: Okay. So, the existing – what’s there is what you’ll plan to use if
this was approved for your parking ingress and egress.
Curtis Mills: Short answer is yes. I think that for these simultaneous peaks that
we’re talking about allowing for – and I’ll tell you the numbers.
The restaurant plan has 93 seats, and very conservatively, we’re
assuming 80 spots required. Well, that’s too many, but we’re
assuming that. And depending on how many – depending on
whether there is a cap put on a Matilda’s operation and what that
is, we would probably go 0.5X on that, add that to the 80, and
that’s our target. Just like the traffic for Matilda’s and a restaurant
probably occurs after peak traffic hours, they occur sort of at the
same time.
So, I think from a practical standpoint, if we had any sort of a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
124
bottleneck on that ingress, we’d have to take some kind of action,
because there’s not a lot of room between there and the
intersection for a backup. It wouldn’t take too many car lengths to
saturate. So, there’s no reason it should stop, but I’m just saying,
that’s my thought. Keep an eye on that, see if it might be an issue
going forward.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Matt, you had a question?
Matt Kunz: Yeah. And Mary Jane, maybe you can answer this. I’m thinking
flow, and a lot of people have a question obviously with traffic
flow, cars coming in and coming out. And then you have a
restaurant as well. You might have an event, sure. And granted, the
restaurant, I assume, would be open every day of the week or
however. But this concert would only be one or possibly two days
a week, depending on what the council allows. So, cars come in.
When do you give them the wristband? Is it back in the back, back
of the venue?
Mary Jane Potter: Uh-huh. As they come into the concert area. And people start
coming – I say after 7:00, but really, some will come as early as
6:45. And they just trickle in from 6:45 or 7:00 until 8:30. I don’t
think it’s going to impact that intersection as much as people are
thinking.
Matt Kunz: So basically, people will try to get a parking spot quickly so they
can get their wristband quickly, and then once they’re out, they’re
out.
Mary Jane Potter: Yeah. I mean, they’ll just come in, and they’ll be parked, and
they’ll get out of their cars, and they’ll come down to the concert
area. That’s where they get a wristband. And then they find their
seat, make their picnic, and visit for a while. And then the concert
starts at 8:30.
Matt Kunz: Now, so people come in, they listen to the music, have a good
time. The music stops at that moment. So, how do you kick
everybody out?
Mary Jane Potter: They just start leaving. Some people will leave early, just like they
do at a lot of concerts, just to avoid being caught in traffic. And
then others will just stay around and visit a while. So, there’s no
set way. It’s never been a problem.
Matt Kunz: And so, when everybody is gone, one of the questions I had for
residents as well is trash pickup, things like that. So, who does
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
125
that? How does that work? Do you have parking staff on-hand that
helps direct parking?
Mary Jane Potter: No. Us.
Matt Kunz: Just you guys. Okay.
Mary Jane Potter: But we tell people, put your trash in our trash bins or take it with
you. And we have almost no problems with people leaving trash,
or trashing parking lots, or any of that. Most of our patrons are
adults that live in the neighborhoods around Matilda’s. And that’s
why I think here, I’ll have some people who will come from
Alpharetta and Roswell, and some of the people who have
regularly come to Matilda’s in Alpharetta. But I have a feeling that
our biggest crowds will come from the neighborhoods around here.
Joe Lockwood: And Steve, if there is a litter problem, that’s easily enforceable by
the city, correct? If there’s a complaint? If the next day, there’s . . .
Steve Krokoff: We have ordinances related to litter. I can’t tell you what it is off
the top of my head, but I’m sure it’s under our environmental
controls.
Carter Lucas: Yeah. We would go after that through our code enforcement
division.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Curtis Mills: Remember, the actual site is 430 feet back off the road. So, it’d
probably be our policing anyway, but we’d be policing.
Joe Lockwood: Some of the biggest concerns I hear, and I can certainly understand
and have myself – one, parking, noise being the biggest. But also,
we’ve talked about a three-year sunset. And I certainly understand
from a property owner and a business perspective investing money,
getting something up and going, and not knowing if the rug will be
jerked out from underneath you. But I’m also concerned for our
citizens and whatnot. If it doesn’t go like you guys all think it’s
going and all that, what kind of recourse would we have? And I
know you’re sitting there saying, well, I don’t want to put
resources to it if we don’t know for sure, just like you use
restrooms, for example. We’ll just use Portalats. But obviously –
Curtis Mills: Really good ones.
Joe Lockwood: Really clean ones. The ones that don’t smell. But I guess my point
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
126
is – and that could hamper your business from getting it to where
it’s a great venue that everybody loves, too, if you can’t put – so
I’m just bouncing this around. I’m wondering, is there – Ken and I
have talked about that in the past. You’ve got some concern with
doing that, putting a sunset on there. But I’m wondering if there’s
some stipulations or some parameters that we as a council could
put on the police it so there wasn’t any surprises for you guys. If
you do everything right and everything’s good, then you don’t
have to worry, but we have some control if it wasn’t going well,
and it was not good for the residents. I don’t know, Ken, is that
something that we could always go back and legally take the use
permit away? Or does that have to be – what’s that process?
Ken Jarrard: Well, my position is, taking the use permit away would require a
process that at least comports with the zoning procedures law.
That’s just what I feel, and I’ve given that advice to other clients as
well, just because a use permit is found in the zoning procedures
law, and specifically is a zoning decision. The options available to
the council are as varied as you can come up with. I mean, first of
all, the conditions attached to this use permit are in fact supposed
to be enforceable checks against “abuses” – the decibel limitations,
or limitations with respect to the number of occupants or
ticketholders that can go see an event. And if those are routinely
offended, this is a matter that could be brought back to the council
for consideration of the special use permit.
I have shared with the council that I have concerns about an
automatic sunset provision. I just don’t see how that complies with
the zoning procedures law. I just don’t. But I have no concern
whatsoever with this matter upon a trigger being activated
returning to the council for consideration of whether the use permit
needs to go away.
Joe Lockwood: I just wonder what – do you have any suggestions on parameters
that would trigger that?
Ken Jarrard: I mean, it can be repeated – numerical repeated violations of the
conditions. That would typically require some sort of an
enforcement action against the applicant. I’m being asked to
provide examples, and I’m doing the best I can to do that. It’s a
difficult situation. You don’t see many examples where you grant a
zoning and it automatically goes away either. Typically, the
behavior is modified by enforcement actions against the company
or the individual that is the recipient of the zoning. So, that’s what
I would recommend here.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
127
Joe Lockwood: Joe?
Joe Longoria: And so, Ken, if we’re uncomfortable with the three-year renewal
period – how did it get there in the first place?
Ken Jarrard: How do you get where?
Steve Krokoff: In the use permit.
Joe Longoria: In the special use permit.
Ken Jarrard: Well, I think part of the problem here is that this is sort of a round
peg in a square hole. And what I mean by that is, the way I read
that festival language, it’s talking about these transitory festivals
that don’t involve permanent installations. And that’s why this is –
I think staff has done an exemplary job of attempting to make this
work to the extent that there are options. But I mean, just candidly,
I just don’t think this was built around the notions of permanent
installations and massive investments of fixed money onto a piece
of property. I think it was more of – I think someone said the
Renaissance Festival or whatever, when it’s sort of an ephemeral,
temporary thing. They come, they set up, and they leave. That’s
sort of the way I read it as well, so.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Matt?
Matt Kunz: Yeah. Two questions that everybody asks, and this is always one
of the first two that comes out, is what happens if Matilda’s stops
being Matilda’s? And legally, from that perspective, if we pass
this, from that perspective, what happens? Maybe you can give us
a baseline.
Ken Jarrard: Well, again, let’s think of it from the zoning perspective. If a
zoning for residential is granted, just as an example, and the
developer that we all thought would be the developer leaves, does
that mean the zoning goes away? It’s rhetorical. And I’m not
looking for you to answer. The answer is, no, it doesn’t. It stays.
Matt Kunz: Is there a possibility if there was a condition that Matilda’s had to
be the operator, as one of those questions?
Ken Jarrard: I would only be comfortable with that if the applicant consented to
it, because – anyway, I’ve had that come up before. That is a
curious thing, to approve a land use enactment that only allows
one, not only sort of use, but the specific entity to provide the us e.
I would be more comfortable if the actual applicant agreed, that
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
128
they were agreeable to that.
Joe Lockwood: Curtis?
Curtis Mills: Well, under the right scenario, I wouldn’t have any issue with that
at all. And you wouldn’t. Right scenario including, I don’t think
that six-month window makes any sense with a long structured
shutdown period. I mean, if you don’t allow her to operate for five
months, and then she gets sick, six months just doesn’t make any
sense. But my commitment to the McCurry's stands, which is, this
is what we’re talking about. I’m not gonna do anything to you guys
that’s gonna be a surprise, etc. I’ve always intended for it to just be
Matilda’s and the Potters specifically, and Danny, etc. This
operation. So, I don’t have an issue with that. I’d love to have
some consideration on stuff that’s hurting us, though.
Like, these guys have built a nice little business over 15 years.
Guess how much someone will want to pay for something that
could become valueless every three years? Nothing. So, that’s a
dilemma, I think, for all of us from a cost standpoint for them.
Joe Longoria Curtis, I hear that argument. And the reason I was shaking my head
is because I’m having difficulty getting my head around it. And
that is that there are a million and one things that can trip this
whole operation up. That’s number one million and two. How on
earth can guaranteeing that prevent all the other things that could
trip this up? It doesn’t make sense to me.
Curtis Mills: Guaranteeing what? I’m sorry.
Joe Longoria: You’re taking much more risk –
Curtis Mills: Guaranteeing what?
Joe Longoria: You’re taking much more risk in trying to get this operation going
than having to deal with a three-year renewal plan. If everything’s
working right, a three-year renewal plan is not an issue.
Curtis Mills: I disagree. I understand you win, but I disagree.
Joe Longoria: No, no. I’m not trying to win, Curtis. I’m trying to understand.
This is my job up here. And that’s the biggest hang-up that I have.
Are you saying right now that if there is a three-year renewal
period, this is a no deal?
Curtis Mills: No. Honestly, we’ll caucus on that if that ends up being a hard line
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
129
in the dirt. We’ll sit down and talk about it. And frankly, I don’t
threaten. So, I’m just saying, it could be that we do something
temporarily and stage them to somewhere that wants them, and
we’ll let them stay there. Or it could be that we just suck it up and
go with it, and try to do the best we can, even though there are no
objective measures that define success. I have an issue with that.
And just hope that every three years, everybody’s happy.
Joe Lockwood: Let me put that in a different perspective, too. And I get where
everybody’s coming from. But there’s also some advantages to
more of a permanency that’s a benefit to the community. It’s just
like having a property, or a rental house, or whatever. And you
only have a one-year lease on it or a two-year lease. You’re not
really gonna fix it up, because you know the landlord may – two
years from now, they may not renew it. And the same thing. You
may not want to put the quality stuff in it to make it successful for
the community. Not just for your business interests, but to make it
nice.
Curtis Mills: We want to do it right.
Joe Lockwood: You may just sit on the fence the whole time. So, that’s why I
brought up earlier, are there some parameters that if you made
some mistakes and didn’t correct them, and it was bad for the
community, that we had some recourse. But it also allowed you to
build the venue in a quality way. That’s where I’m coming from.
And I can see that point, where if you know next year, hey, it
might just get yanked, then are you really gonna do it right? Rick.
Rick Mohrig: Ken, again, going back to trying to understand this, like you said,
you got a round peg you’re trying to put in a square hole. The three
years on this use permit, which was the closest thing we could find
that could fit this venue, because we didn’t have anything defined
in Milton’s ordinances that would allow it, that’s why it says three
years today. But when we did other venues that we went through a
couple really late nights, with like Little River Farms, where the
neighbors were very concerned about noise and about how this was
gonna impact, and it’s gonna become a rock venue, and all these
other things. But I think what we said at that point in time, our
recourse, if that was approved and Little River was approved, was
if they violated the noise ordinance, we could step in at any point
in time and say, you just lost your use permit because you didn’t
abide by the things that we put in place that protected the
community. Wasn’t that what we went through when we – that
elongated process till like 1:00 or 1:30 in the morning with them?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
130
Ken Jarrard: Yes.
Rick Mohrig: I believe that was our recourse, and it wasn’t contingent upon
Little River. You’re gonna make this investment, and you have to
do a renewal in one year or three years. I think it was, you make an
investment, you’d better be darn sure that you make it successful
and abide within the parameters so you don’t negatively impact
your neighbors, or you’re not gonna be there, and you’ll have
wasted your investment. And it wasn’t a threat. It was --
Curtis Mills: Right. And that’s controllable success.
Rick Mohrig: Pardon me?
Curtis Mills: That’s controllable success, and that’s all I was . . .
Rick Mohrig: And there were issues out there with concerns with traffic, with
nighttime, with the roads, with – and I guess that’s one of the
things I still have down here is, okay, if we had X number of cars,
because it is close to the intersection, when a concert is done.
Today, you’re on Highway 9. Does anybody help with egress or
traffic control when you’ve got people coming and going for the
concert? Or today, you haven’t had that problem with the location
from a parking standpoint?
Mark Potter: Me.
Mary Jane Potter: Mark does.
Rick Mohrig: Okay. Because I guess just thinking practically, that’s, in my mind,
one of the things, if I look at that intersection, and I know that
intersection. I know where Curtis’s restaurant will be. If that’s the
parking, you may have to look at how do I get the traffic out, or
when it’s getting close to the concert time, how am I safely getting
the cars in without backing up the intersection? I’m not trying to be
–
Mark Potter: What I’ve done in the past and probably in the future, somebody
else is gonna have to do it. But that’s something we definitely will
do.
Rick Mohrig: Because I think that’s one of the concerns we’ve heard from the
neighbors, is it is a traffic issue, and I don’t know how you
ameliorate that unless you actually take action like Little River
does. When they know they’re gonna have patrons coming and
going, they do something to make sure that they have safety in, I
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
131
guess, arriving and exiting.
Joe Lockwood: And they have staff there to –
Curtis Mills: Yeah, yeah. I’m sorry. Danny Bisen, sound engineer, is asking if
you’re through with him.
Joe Lockwood: He can go home. Anybody have any questions for sound?
Curtis Mills: And we can address some or most of them without Danny, but I
don’t want to make him hang out if . . .
Joe Lockwood: I’m not hearing any questions for sound guy.
Joe Longoria: I’ve got one question.
Joe Lockwood: Go.
Joe Longoria: So, sir, Mr. I’m in charge of all the sound at Matilda’s. If we
imposed a 75-decibel peak limit on the music, do you think that
would negatively impact the experience at Matilda’s?
Danny Bisen: What would you give me as far as a distance from –
Curtis Mills: Can we qualify what you mean by peak? Do you mean top or peak
decibel level?
Danny Bisen: Well, there’s two different things I’ll ask you. First of all, at what
location are you measuring? At a property line –
Joe Longoria: At any point on the boundary of the property.
Danny Bisen: 75 dB at the boundary to the point. And that point at the –
Curtis Mills: 71.
Danny Bisen: 71.
Danny Bisen: I can live with 75 dB at the corner of –
Curtis Mills: He said peak. We need to be clear that he’s not talking about –
Danny Bisen: Well, yeah. Peak is – I mean, I can cough right now and give you
an 85 dB cough. That’s peak. An average –
Curtis Mills: Continuous.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
132
Danny Bisen: – continuous is usually considered over a two-minute period, an
average – that’s what sound meters do automatically, is you set a
time. That average is very attainable. It will peak higher than that,
but it will be for less than the peak period, if that makes sense to
everyone.
Joe Longoria: Right. But –
Danny Bisen: It’s as the motorcycle goes by –
Joe Longoria: [Crosstalk] [06:02:21] it’s not a peak, right?
Danny Bisen: Yeah.
Joe Longoria: Because a peak is defined as some kind of sustained level over a
certain period of time.
Danny Bisen: Yeah. Where the average is considered two minutes, the peak is
considered – during our test periods on Saturday, the average was
over two minutes. The peak was always a truck or a motorcycle
event. One –
Joe Longoria: Yeah, but you can’t be held responsible for the traffic. [Crosstalk]
[06:02:52]
Curtis Mills: No, no, that’s why I’m saying take peak out of it. Just call it –
Danny Bisen: Call it the average, 75 dB at the property limit, is not a problem.
Curtis Mills: The festival code calls it continuous, but it’s the equivalent of
average.
Danny Bisen: Yeah. Average is the industry standard, yeah.
Joe Lockwood: Well, question. Compare that to our ordinance with 85.
Curtis Mills: It’s continuous. It’s not a peak of 85. It’s continuous.
Joe Lockwood: Just to clarify, what you’re bringing up is 10 decibels less than
what our commercial ordinance calls for.
Joe Longoria Correct.
Joe Lockwood: Not residential.
Joe Longoria: I thought that our festival ordinance read 65 continuous, 75 peak.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
133
Curtis Mills: 60 and 75.
Joe Longoria: It’s 60 continuous and 75 peak. Can you live with those
parameters?
Danny Bisen: At the property limit?
Curtis Mills: No.
Danny Bisen: No.
Joe Longoria: So, which one do you blow?
Danny Bisen: I’ll blow the –
Curtis Mills: Blow 60.
Danny Bisen: Yeah, the 60 dB at the property limit.
Curtis Mills: We’re 71 at the closest property line continuous. 60 is 11 less than
that. I mean, we blow that. It’s only 60 feet away, even though the
house is 360. So, from a technical standpoint, that’s where we
failed on the first test. And I said, we can’t drop the request. But I
think where you’re going with it, and maybe it’s something closer
to a win-win, is coincidentally, you said 75. It’s coincidental. I
think you were saying, instead of 85 continuous, what about 75
continuous? And as we’ve learned from the various things that
have been going on, that’s a 50% reduction in the noise level going
10 decibels.
So, what if it’s 75 continuous? Coincidentally, the same peak
number that’s in the festival code, but a totally different
measurement, right? So, we’re not talking spikes for a truck or a
motorcycle going by. We’re talking continuous.
Joe Longoria: Right. I’m only concerned about the noise that’s being produced
by the venue. I’m not worried about the ambient noise. I’m not
worried about the surrounding noise. You can’t be responsible for
that, okay?
Danny Bisen: Exactly.
Joe Longoria: And sound doesn’t add linearly. If you take two 75-decibel sources
and add them together, you don’t get 150 decibels.
Danny Bisen: You still get 75.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
134
Joe Longoria: Right. Exactly. So, I’m not worried about the other contributors to
this puzzle. I’m only worried about you guys. Are you telling me
that you can’t sustain an audience with a peak of 75 dB at the
property line and a sustained level of 65? Is that what you’re
telling me?
Curtis Mills: Yes, because we’re 71 at the property line.
Joe Longoria: Sustained.
Curtis Mills: Yes.
Joe Longoria: So, what are you at the stage?
Danny Bisen: At the stage? 85.
Curtis Mills: 85, 25 feet in front of it.
Joe Longoria: So, you’re producing 85-decibel music at the stage, and that’s what
you need to do?
Danny Bisen: That is what is – sincerely, 85 dB in a concert setting, if you’ve
been to a concert, you’ve been subjected to at least 90. I’m telling
you –
Joe Longoria: Well, hold it. I’m not considering this a concert like the concerts
that I went to in my youth.
Danny Bisen: Right.
Rick Mohrig: I’m considering this Matilda’s.
Danny Bisen: Right.
Rick Mohrig: And I’ve been to Matilda’s. And when I was talking to my brother
sitting across the table, we couldn’t hear the music playing. So,
that’s what I’m thinking about. Has it changed since I’ve been?
Danny Bisen: I’m talking about worst-case scenarios. I’m talking about things
that have been measured. I would say that over 95% of our shows
are conversational. As a matter of fact, one of the things that I do
say is, crowd, could you please hold your conversation down so
that we can hear the performers? But still, we have people asking
for worst-case scenarios, and could this happen? Of course it
could. Does it on a consistent basis? Not at our venue. But, once
again, if we’re gonna give you worst-case scenarios.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
135
Joe Longoria: And another reason – I mean, you guys did your measurements
without an audience. You can’t do measurements –
Danny Bisen: Yeah. And no reflective material. We gave it the worst-case
[crosstalk] [06:07:36].
Joe Longoria: So, I still don’t understand why we’re even having this discussion,
because you can’t tell until the night of the event what you’re
gonna have.
Danny Bisen: Because we want to be good neighbors.
Joe Longoria: I get it. I understand. All right, that’s all I have. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: All right.
Curtis Mills: If you all would like us to consider some scenario before – I
definitely don’t want to cut him loose if we’re gonna have to make
an on-the-spot decision, so.
Joe Lockwood: Does anybody else – Matt?
Matt Kunz: Yeah, I’ve got a question for him. So, continuous is 71, right?
Danny Bisen: Correct.
Matt Kunz: But if you had a spike above 75, is it a drum sequence that causes
it to go over that? What –
Danny Bisen: Yeah. This would be a snare drum hit or somebody screaming into
a microphone, but.
Matt Kunz: Gotcha. Just making sure. That’s it.
Danny Bisen: I have equipment that limits that, so.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Matt Kunz: Let me ask you, how often during a show do you usually go to a
peak?
Danny Bisen: What’s that, I’m sorry?
Matt Kunz: How often during a show would you usually have a peak or a spike
above a 75?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
136
Danny Bisen: Rarely. It’s not something that – especially if you’re talking
property line areas –
Curtis Mills: Wait. I think you’re talking about two different things. So, you
took an 85-decibel reading 25 feet directly in front of –
Danny Bisen: On axis, in front of the speaker. Yes.
Curtis Mills: Correct. Continuous. It wasn’t peak. It was continuous.
Danny Bisen: Right.
Curtis Mills: So, that’s essentially where the crowd starts. I think it’s actually 20
feet. But 20, 25 feet is where the first table occurs. So, that’s crowd
noise level. If you walk through the building, directly behind it is
where the fence, the property line that I was talking about, that 71
reading. That’s where that was.
Danny Bisen: Correct.
Matt Kunz: Gotcha. And you guys understand the reason for the questions is
because this – let’s say this was approved. Anybody who lives
around there that’s used to not hearing things are gonna have
concern. I don’t think you’re gonna be like the high school that
was put in near mine, where I’m gonna hear the uncontrolled
amplified sound that we don’t – we can’t even control as a city.
But you would adjust the sound based upon that evening. Because
I know sound carries more when everything gets quiet. At
nighttime, you can hear. I mean, we just know that happens,
because you don’t have the other noise going around, so. But that’s
something you adjust on that evening.
Danny Bisen: Of course.
Joe Lockwood: Did you –
Matt Kunz: No, I –
Danny Bisen: Given the limits, we could make it happen.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Curtis Mills: I’d prefer if we could talk about that before you make a statement.
Danny Bisen: Given the limits, we can –
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
137
Curtis Mills: What I was trying to get at was, if we’re faced with a firm hard
commitment, I want to make damn sure we can meet it and –
Danny Bisen: Still entertain.
Curtis Mills: And not be hip shooting in front of a hard crowd. Maybe we even
go outside. I don’t think we have anything on the table yet. I
thought that Commissioner Longoria was making a
recommendation, but it sounds like not. If there is, I’d like to talk
about it before we take a break.
Joe Lockwood: Excuse me. Could we let Joe ask a question, and then you guys can
step out if you need to?
Joe Longoria: Maybe help you out here. In your test, okay – I mean, you’re in
100% completely control of the level of sound every single concert
for Matilda’s, correct?
Danny Bisen: Correct.
Joe Longoria: Okay. If you wanted to set the level at the stage at 60 decibels, you
could, right?
Danny Bisen: I could, yes.
Joe Longoria: So, it’s in your complete control to operate the emanation of sound
at a specific level.
Danny Bisen: That is correct.
Joe Longoria: In order for you to get to 71 continuous at the property line, you
have to be 85 at the stage, or whatever it was.
Danny Bisen: Correct.
Joe Longoria: Okay. Is that typical for Matilda’s? Is that where you normally
operate?
Danny Bisen: Pretty darn close.
Joe Longoria: Okay. So, if you went down from there – let’s say you operate at
80 instead of 85. Are you destroying the experience? Are you
gonna produce a product that just doesn’t work?
Danny Bisen: It will be less – it really depends upon the music. I can’t honestly
give you an answer on five dB, because the difference between
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
138
five dB is here.
Curtis Mills: You guys have the anecdotal sense on that. The test volume we
picked on Saturday matched the baseline test that we did in April
at the show. And we used recorded live Matilda’s music. So, it’s
just as acoustical, no more bass, etc. And you guys would have the
anecdotal sense on that, was that – because I don’t. A quality level
that you guys would say, you know what? You already said you
tell him to crank it down when it feels too loud. Do you tell him to
crank it up sometimes and have an “it’s just right” level?
Danny Bisen: Not ever. I don’t think I do.
Mary Jane Potter: No, we –
Curtis Mills: He’s got a lead foot.
Mary Jane Potter: A little more than we do, yeah.
Mark Potter: A little bit more than we do.
Curtis Mills: Yeah.
Mary Jane Potter: And we do tell him, turn it down.
Joe Longoria: Okay, all right. Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. All right. So, any more questions for the applicant? All
right. Thank you. All right. Do you have any questions?
Curtis Mills: Danny, thanks a lot.
Danny Bisen: My pleasure. Thank you!
Joe Lockwood: Thank you. The answers on the previous questions?
Ken: I’ve got those answers.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Robyn MacDonald: Yeah. Okay.
Joe Lockwood: Go ahead.
Robyn MacDonald: For the Little River Farms, the most latest zoning modification,
you all made conditions. So, it’s a barn, and that the music would
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
139
be inside the barn. It’s not music outside the barn. But Friday
through Saturday, 9:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m., and the music needs to
end by 10:00 p.m. And it says maximum 45 dB one hour prior to
music ending.
Peyton Jamison: Is that the most recent one?
Rick Mohrig: That’s the barn. What about the main venue?
Robyn MacDonald: And the main venue was the same thing. It was 45 –
Joe Longoria: But it’s 45 dB at the property line.
Robyn MacDonald: No, no. Well.
Joe Longoria Or inside the building, or at the property line?
Robyn MacDonald: Let’s see. Let’s go back to it. [Crosstalk] [06:14:35] Yeah, it
would be at the property line, yes.
Joe Longoria: Right.
Robyn MacDonald: Yes.
Ken: Mr. Mayor, do we have any more questions for the applicants?
Joe Lockwood: No, no. I asked.
Steve Krokoff: I’ve got answers to the remaining questions regarding the
residential.
Joe Lockwood: You guys can sit down if you’d like, and if there’s any comments,
we can bring you back up.
Steve Krokoff: So, regarding amplified music within an entirely residential area,
the maximum dBA, it ranges between 50 and 55 for amplified
music. So, if you, at your home, had a party on your back deck,
you could not exceed 55 dBA at the nearest residential property
line.
Peyton Jamison: And Little River is 45, right?
Steve Krokoff: For a commercial entity, similar to one of our restaurants out here,
if they were going to have amplified music, they could have it up
to 85 dBA at the – as measured at the property line of the
commercial property which the sound is being generated. So, keep
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
140
in mind, that doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be commercially
zoned. It’s at the edge of the property of the commercial use.
Peyton Jamison: Huh.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Anything else?
Peyton Jamison: Yeah. And that’s good on my sound questions.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Matt?
Matt Kunz: So, yeah. The intersection. Carter, tell us about what’s the status on
the Birmingham Crossroads intersection GDOT, Union Hill, all
that stuff, because that’s – obviously, that’s not the most dangerous
intersection, because everybody stops, which has put it on the
backburner for any kind of construction. But how do we move
construction of that intersection up?
Carter Lucas: Well, and Sarah can correct me if I go off-track here. But GDOT is
looking at it at this point, so it is moving forward. We had always
talked over the years with GDOT that we would try and coordinate
improvements with that intersection with improvements at
Freemanville and Birmingham. And that being one of our
TSPLOST projects, they began to look at Freemanville or
Birmingham, and Birmingham also. Because of the tight area they
have to work in, it’s not as simple an intersection as it might
normally be. And so, they’ve taken a little bit of extra time in
developing the concept plans that they believe would be effective
at that exact location. We haven’t seen those yet. And so –
Matt Kunz: Okay. Are they done, but we just haven’t see them?
Carter Lucas: I don’t know if – Sarah, if you’ve got anything to add to that. I
don’t know that they’ve been fully vetted through their process as
of yet. They have indicated that when they do get them to a point
where they feel comfortable, that they are realistic alternatives, that
we would have an opportunity to weigh in on those improvements.
Did I say that correctly?
Sarah Leaders: Correct, yeah. Before they create the project and get it
programmed, they would pass the alternatives along to us to look
at.
Matt Kunz: Sarah, do you have any estimation about when they might come to
us with our input?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
141
Sarah Leaders: They had said in the next month or so, they hope to wrap up the
study.
Matt Kunz: Oh, really? Great.
Sarah Leaders: And that was a few weeks ago.
Matt Kunz: Okay. So, two or three weeks, we should have some kind of
communication with them about something as far as a concept
plan?
Sarah Leaders: Yes. At least an update as to where they are.
Matt Kunz: Okay. And so, the concept plan is completed. Then obviously,
there’s approval, agreement, funding, etc., and then all that, before
there’s ever any kind of movement of dirt or utilities or anything
like that, right?
Carter Lucas: Funding, utilities, and right of way acquisition are always the
longest parts of any project.
Matt Kunz: Right.
Joe Lockwood: So, you’d guess a two-year deal?
Carter Lucas: And it really depends on what they come up with and what impact
it has on adjoining properties and utilities in that particular
location, so. Difficult to say without seeing what their concepts are
gonna be.
Matt Kunz: So, it’s further along, though, than we originally thought.
Carter Lucas: It’s moving.
Matt Kunz: I was thinking five years. You’re thinking maybe two, two-and-a-
half, estimation.
Carter Lucas: Well, yeah, I can’t say until I see what they’re planning on doing.
Matt Kunz: Gotcha. Okay. So, with traffic as a concern, and obviously, a lot of
people are wondering what’s gonna happen if these cars come
through there, two issues, I think. One, at Little River, I know if
they had a certain capacity, we might have a police officer there to
help. From that, I think we had done that in the past. Could you
talk to that, if there was – how that worked?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
142
Carter Lucas: I don’t know how traffic control works at Little River.
Matt Kunz: Is that off-duty now?
Steve Krokoff: Is that the question regarding what they do at Little River?
Matt Kunz: Yeah, Little River off-duty, and –
Steve Krokoff: Yeah. I believe they have – yeah, it’s an extra job assignment,
where they get hired privately through Little River.
Matt Kunz: Privately by the – okay, so that’s what’s going on there. So, there’s
been some questions about the BYOB component of this, how that
is monitored and maintained. I don’t think – we don’t have any
regulations for something like that. But from a city staff
perspective, and maybe you can explain historically some concerns
that we might want to watch out for with that component.
Obviously, have some residents that were very concerned about
BYOB near there, because families and kids and that sort of thing.
But we don’t have a lot of BYOB in Milton that I can think of,
right? I mean, and problems. This is a police question, really. So,
I’m asking about these circumstances with BYOB that we might
want to be aware of.
Steve Krokoff I’m not sure I understand the question.
Matt Kunz: So, are there any concerns that we should have with BYOB with
regards to drunks, alcoholics, things like that, at a party venue that
could be driving, weaving on the roads, driving up and down roads
in Milton, causing wrecks?
Steve Krokoff: Every home is a BYOB, so it’s very difficult for me to really
explain what – from a law enforcement perspective, people have to
hopefully obey the law, and those that don’t, we enforce. But I
don’t know what effect this event could have on us. I mean, adults
should be able to go there and obey the law. Sometimes they do,
sometimes they don’t. Maybe it’s a result of being in a nightclub or
a bar. Sometimes it’s a result of being in a neighbor’s kitchen.
Matt Kunz: I just asked the question.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Anything else?
Peyton Jamison: I want to talk about buffers at some point.
Joe Longoria: Yeah. That’s where I’m going next.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
143
Joe Lockwood: Go ahead, Peyton.
Peyton Jamison: All right. So, this might be – I’m assuming this is staff and
probably Mr. Reese. So, I see we’re getting the buffers on all the
sides. Is there a reason why? I mean, can you give me exactly why
you need the buffers on every single side? And why is the septic
field so large that, if it’s just a couple bathrooms, why do we need
all the buffer removed?
Curtis Mills: That drain field is for the restaurant.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. So, you need the buffer removed for the restaurant, not for
Matilda’s.
Curtis Mills: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Lockwood: Speak into the mike, Mr. – whoever wants to answer the question.
Scott Reece: Okay. So, the septic system area shown, the problem is, if you put
a buffer on for this use permit, then it runs with the property, so it
prohibits any further use of the property. So, when we met with
staff, a septic field is allowed to be within 10 feet of the property
line, with the current AG zoning use. So, it didn’t seem to be a
problem if it’s an allowable use with its current zoning and current
usability. But the reason we requested the variance there is that if
you create this permanent buffer with this use permit, then it
completely limits the rest of the use of the property.
Peyton Jamison: So, if y’all weren’t applying for a use permit, you could build –
Scott Reece: I could put a septic field within 10 feet of the property line.
Peyton Jamison: For the commercial use.
Scott Reece: Yes.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. And so, when y’all are talking about the reserve field, is that
the reserve – where is the reserve field going?
Scott Reece: That area is, my estimation, based upon preliminary gallons per
day of – there’s a lot of guesswork and estimation if I don’t know
what the seating capacity exactly of the restaurant that’s gonna be
in the future that I’m having to extrapolate from the applicant.
Peyton Jamison: So, is a north buffer, then is that just why not type of deal?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
144
Scott Reece: Yeah, I think that was more –
Peyton Jamison: Make it sound easier, or?
Scott Reece: We were just going through the process. We had no – my
understanding is that 99% of the time, these use permits are site
plan specific. We’re not showing any disturbance or anything in
there. If it’s site plan specific, then the fact that we’re showing no
activity or no use or anything in there, then – and we can’t control
the power line easement. It’s gonna be cut by Georgia
Transmission Authority every three months, or whatever th e case
may be.
Peyton Jamison: So, I guess my last question is, if you have the use permit, let’s say
we do a three-year deal, so you get your buffer. You get to put
your septic field in the buffer, and Matilda’s goes away. But you
could do it anyway without it.
Scott Reece: Yeah, because – so, it’s the same deal that we discussed about with
the building.
Peyton Jamison: Got it.
Scott Reece: So, if the use goes away and it reverts back to an AG use, then
you’ve got a 60-foot front, a 25-side, and a 50-foot rear in AG
zoning. The building is completely compliant. There is no need for
a variance, because it’s compliant with the existing zoning and the
existing use. But only because it’s a special use permit that has
special regs and rules, we had to create a variance because that’s
why it says special. It’s special uses. So, that’s why, if it goes
away, that building doesn’t need to be moved. It’s completely
conforming, because then it’s in AG zoning, 60-foot front, 50 rear,
25-foot sides. It’s completely conforming. Same deal with the
septic system.
As shown in your comprehensive land use plan, that area is all
that’s designated that’s now AG in that triangle is rezoned to a
commercial is shown on the CLUP. So, then where that setback is
consistent with commercial zoning adjoining AG use residential
use.
Peyton Jamison: Just as long as staff can say that they can use that AG-1 property
for a commercial septic field. Is that correct?
Steve Krokoff: We had this discussion today. Yeah, the septic field –
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
145
Peyton Jamison: So, they can do that by right. If there was no Matilda’s coming in,
you can use the AG-1 zone property and use a septic field for that
for the commercial zone property south of it.
Carter Lucas: Right. It would come under Fulton County regulations on size and
location of that. There’s no specific use condition that prevents or
mandates the location of the septic field.
Peyton Jamison: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: Joe?
Joe Longoria: So, Scott, I want to understand again the request for the zero
setback on some parts of the property line, that’s not needed?
Scott Reece: Well, on the area, the very northern portion of the property that’s
north of the power line that adjoins the Birmingham Park property.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Scott Reece: Okay. If this use is accepted, then every one that I’ve ever
participated in, it is site plan specific. So, we are showing no use
whatsoever north of that power line. So, if that’s a huge sticking
point, I mean, if we’re site plan specific and we’re not showing any
activity in that area, then it’s kind of let’s beat the dead horse one
more time, so.
Joe Longoria: So, we could add in – so, right now, we exclude the buffer and
setback requirement for everywhere except for the residential
property line that’s north and west.
Scott Reece: Well, yes, because the property on the east that’s zoned
commercial, there is no requirement for a setback that –
Joe Longoria: Right.
Scott Reece: Okay. You’ve got two layers here. You’ve got – okay. So, you’ve
got the use permit regs that designate the properties, the AG zone
with a residential use. And they have specific setbacks. Then
you’ve got the overlay that comes in, so you’ve got about five
different layers that you’re shifting in. And in that area, it doesn’t
designate that it’s AG zone residential use. It’s just AG zoned, so.
The area –
Carter Lucas: The buffer comes into play where you have the commercial use
adjacent [audio cuts out] [06:29:12] and residentially zoned or
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
146
residentially potentially residentially occupied property.
Joe Longoria: So, we need the change on the north and west boundary that’s next
to the residential property is what you’re saying? We actually need
a change there to go down to the 10 feet, I think it is, in activity
zone? And landscape buffer?
Robyn MacDonald: Right. So, the condition for the buffer stays – so, that would be
Condition Part Five. So, in lieu of the 75-foot undisturbed buffer
and 10-foot landscape strip adjacent to Mr. McCurry’s property,
which is west.
Carter Lucas: West. Right.
Robyn MacDonald: If I can get my cursor here.
Robyn MacDonald: Yeah. If you can get your cursor going. And our condition says,
provide a 60-foot setback and a 10-foot landscape strip adjacent to
the west property line and north property line, adjacent to Mr.
McCurry. Allow a maximum 10-foot encroachment into the 60-
foot setback for the relocated building adjacent to the west
property line. So, because the building is, I believe, 50 feet away
from the property line, we have to write [audio cuts out]
[06:30:27] approve it, a condition to allow the building, the
henhouse, to be encroaching by 10 feet into the 60-foot setback
part.
Joe Longoria: Yeah. This is where I want to make sure I understand. I’m actually
okay with that, because the person who is harmed is the neighbor
who’s saying they support this whole thing. So, if they’re not
complaining about it, I shouldn’t complain about it. Where I have a
problem is, we’ve asked for removal of the buffer and the setback
on all the other sides, and I’m hearing from Scott, they don’t need
that. I would have noticed – I mean, I would have stated that the
stream buffer and those things, those are nonnegotiable to begin
with, and we can’t change the state buffer line and stuff like that.
Plus, you can’t [audio cuts out] [06:31:22] the stream to begin
with. But so, that takes a big chunk in the corner. But now, the rest
of the north and the east – well, the east is –
Carter Lucas: It’s west.
Robyn MacDonald: East.
Scott Reece: It would have to be north of the power line.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
147
Carter Lucas: Right.
Robyn MacDonald: Right.
Carter Lucas: Basically.
Joe Longoria: Well, the power line – most of that piece –
Carter Lucas: Is the corner – it’s really the only corner north of the power line
from the stream buffers or back around to the power line.
Joe Longoria: So, you’re not planning on doing anything with that. So, leaving
the buffers and the setbacks the way they are is fine.
Scott Reece: Right. But that area [inaudible] [06:31:59] at the power line.
Joe Longoria: Right. That’s where part of the venue’s going. I get that.
Scott Reece: Right. And it adjoins the power line part of the park.
Joe Longoria: I think it might have been – not that you’re ever gonna do this
again. But it might have been advantageous if you had really called
out where you needed the variance, instead of just saying
everywhere, because that sent the wrong message to almost
everybody.
Scott Reece: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Scott Reece: I guess. And my –
Joe Longoria: I hear you. I get it.
Scott Reece: It was plan specific. It typically is. So, we weren’t worried that –
Robyn MacDonald: Do you want me to read that condition that we have in the packet
about the site plan? Because we’ve amended it recently to be a
little bit more substantial than it has in the past about the site plan.
I’d like to read it so you’d understand what we’re looking for.
Joe Longoria: Go for it, Robyn.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah, read it, Robyn.
Robyn MacDonald: It says, to the owner’s agreement to abide by the following:
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
148
substantial compliance with the site plan received by the
Community Development Department on March 29, 2018, and
where [audio cuts out] [06:33:05] exactly how the project may
contain minor deviations approved by the community development
director, provided the deviations remain consistent with the
purpose and intent [audio cuts out] [06:33:14] council’s approval
of the use permit. Notwithstanding the contents of the site plan, the
project must meet or exceed the requirements of the zoning
ordinance, all other applicable city ordinances, and these
conditions. The site plan may be revised with the approval of the
community development director in order to comply with city
codes and zoning conditions. Unless otherwise noted herein,
compliance with all conditions shall be in place prior to the
issuance of the first certificate of occupancy.
Joe Longoria: So, that’s 2A in the Recommended Conditions.
Robyn MacDonald: Right.
Joe Longoria: Correct.
Robyn MacDonald: So, I think the intent is that what is shown on the site plan would
remain, unless there was some – I don’t think anybody is really
gonna touch it. And let’s say if somebody wanted to, they would
have to come to our department and ask the community
development director. And we are conservative, typically, in how
things are changed on site plans. And then, I think, further, what I
had advised Mr. Reese was – well, I think Mr. Mills was indicating
when we met, was that if he was to do the remainder of the buffer,
let’s say in the northeast corner where all the beautiful specimen
trees are, is to meet the buffer standards, he would have to do
additional plantings to screen physically to the city park, which
I’m not sure how many people are really hanging out at the city
park waiting to see what happens on the other side.
So, I think that the intent was in part economic, not to have to do
additional plantings to provide a screen in between all those
beautiful hardwoods, to screen something that really is not
impacting anybody [audio cuts out] [06:34:58] think so. So, that
was my advice to the applicant, based on his intent and what he
wanted to do.
Joe Longoria: So, the language that you just read, Robin, in 2A, is that meant to
cover condition five? Or is that meant to cover condition [audio
cuts out] [06:35:22], or meant to cover both? Because those are
the ones that deal with setbacks in activity zones, and –
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
149
Robyn MacDonald: Oh, you mean part five. You mean the concurrent variances, part
five?
Joe Longoria: Yes.
Robyn MacDonald: Okay. Right. So, condition 4E and 4F deals with, yes. So, and Mr.
Jarrard can throw in his [audio cuts out] [06:35:46], but this 2A
applies to everything about the use permit and what has been
submitted in the site plan.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Robyn MacDonald: But he can confirm that.
Joe Longoria: So, we’re not gonna approve a variance that reads the way the
original application reads. We’re gonna provide for a variance that
covers the language in 2A under recommended conditions to
ensure that the site plan that we see and approve picks where the
buffers and the setbacks are impacted and where they’re not. Is that
correct?
Robyn MacDonald: I mean, we called out where the setback would be on 4E, along
those property lines, against McCurry’s. So, I think that’s
corrected. And then we’re saying to delete the 75-foot undeserved
buffer and 10-foot improvement setback for the remaining property
lines adjacent to AG-1. I think it’s the idea that they wouldn’t have
to provide a 75-foot undisturbed buffer, because you’re deleting it.
And it’s showing whatever on the site plan. So, that’s what you’re
asking, is it should be on the site plan.
Joe Longoria: Right. Well, yeah. And I’m very worried that my brain is starting
to shut down, and so I’m not quite understanding exactly what’s
being said. But I’ve heard at least two times tonight that any of the
property north of the power line easement, they’re not gonna touch
anyway.
Robyn MacDonald: Correct.
Joe Longoria: So, why do we want to delete a buffer from that side?
Robyn MacDonald: Because I mentioned that even though it appears to have a lot of
vegetation, there’s mature trees, but it doesn’t meet the regulations
of what a visual buffer is. And therefore, if it’s not deleted, then
Mr. Mills would have to do additional plantings to create a visual
buffer, because those are not evergreen trees.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
150
Joe Longoria: Okay, so –
Robyn MacDonald: Does that make sense?
Joe Longoria: So, what we’re deleting is the need to add something to the
existing buffer.
Joe Lockwood: The buffer standards.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Scott Reece: It doesn’t meet buffer standards. It’s just a mature hardwood forest.
Robyn MacDonald: Right.
Scott Reece: That we have no intention of touching.
Joe Longoria: Right. Okay.
Joe Lockwood: All right. It’s almost 1:00. Maybe if we could start tightening up
the questions and –
Peyton Jamison: I got it. I want to go to the last – since we’re kind of on the
recommended conditions, which is good, I want to go towards the
end, on 5B and 5C. So, staff’s wanting the three-year renewal – or
no, to delete, to add the three-year renewal. But if – Carter, can
you expound on – I know what 5C is. [Audio cuts out] [06:38:48]
400 feet of right of way. But can you expand on 5B? So, can you
just maybe clarify that, what exactly the applicant might be getting
themselves into on this?
Carter Lucas: Sure. In this particular case, because a traffic study wasn’t required
at the time of the application, so the code outlines the conditions
and warrants under which a traffic study would be required. And
this site, on its face, didn’t meet those requirements. However,
recognizing the concern that a lot of people have with the traffic at
this particular location, we wanted to have a condition in there that
if we determined at a future date that we were having traffic
concerns with the project or at the intersection, it allowed us to
require a traffic study to come up with some recommendations.
Now, that traffic study can have a couple of different forms. I
mean, you can go all the way to the full-blown we’re doing traffic
[audio cuts out] [06:39:48] intersection system modeling, or it can
be something far more simple, depending on what type of problem
we’re trying to cure. So, it could be something that’s associated
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
151
just with maybe the circulation on the site that we’d need to look
at, getting cars into and out of the site more efficiently. It could be
backups on Hickory Flat that we’re trying to address, in which
case, to the extreme, maybe turn lanes would be required. But it’s
just an opportunity for us to try and address problems that may –
unforeseen problems that may occur in the future that we wanted
to have an opportunity to – a trigger to go back and say, we need to
look at some sort of traffic improvements in that area.
Peyton Jamison: So, I guess my question is, this is kind of like an open-ended thing
as far as how long – I mean, if there’s traffic problems in a year or
two? I mean, so this is like, open-ended here.
Carter Lucas: It is.
Peyton Jamison: And no matter if they do a traffic study and there’s X dollars that
need to be improved because of Matilda’s, the city will force the
property owner to pay for those improvements?
Carter Lucas: Yes. So, but keep in mind, these are project-related improvements,
not system-related improvements. So, it’s not as if we’re gonna ask
Matilda to go fix the intersection at 372 and Hickory Flat Road,
because that’s a system [audio cuts out] [06:41:11] improvement.
This would be relative to project-level improvements, where we
could identify that there’s an issue caused by some specific
problem related to this site that we need to resolve, not go fix a
major intersection.
Steve Krokoff: Like it currently is.
Joe Longoria: Got it. Got it.
Joe Lockwood: Is that something normal? Would you ask that from an application
like this? I guess since, as Peyton said, it’s open-ended, it’s pretty
much taking the property from now on out, right? Even if it wasn’t
needed.
Carter Lucas: Well, at this point, we’re not taking anything. So, if that refers to
the reservation of the right of way, the reservation’s a little bit
different than the dedication. The reservation really says that you
need to reserve this area for potential for use. And it doesn’t place
any other restriction on the property other than you can’t place a
building within that area. So, the setbacks and things are still
measured from the original property line. But in the reservation
[audio cuts out] [06:42:14] what you’re building there, just in
case there is a need in the future.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
152
Joe Longoria: Okay. So, he’s not giving us that property as far as if we need that
20 by 20 in the future, we’d have to pay – we’ll go through that.
Carter Lucas: It will go through its normal acquisition process.
Joe Longoria: Okay. Okay. Got it.
Carter Lucas: That’s the difference between the reservation and the dedication.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. [Audio cuts out] [06:42:31] All right. Anybody else,
anything else? I’m up for motions if there’s no more discussion.
Rick Mohrig: Can I ask one more question?
Joe Lockwood: You can.
Rick Mohrig: Curtis, you had said that you would be opposed to having the use
permit tied to Matilda’s venue.
Curtis Mills: Yeah. Let me make sure I’m clear. Staff’s got a condition. I think
it’s a new one in the new version, that just does that, that says these
variances expire essentially if – I don’t know if it says Matilda’s or
the business ceases operation continuously for six months.
Robyn MacDonald: So, it’s technically the use. Technically. [Crosstalk] [06:43:34]
Joe Lockwood: [Audio cuts out] [06:43:36] the business, but.
Curtis Mills: Yeah. So, that accomplished that. I mean, I have an issue with the
six months, but I think it’s just a number. And I didn’t have a
problem with it. And I thought it protected the neighbors, what I
had in mind. I’m not after any sort of precedent re-use, which I
don’t think I could get anyway if I went commercial. But long
answer to your question, assuming the window was reasonable and
there wasn’t a scenario where it accidentally gets shut down,
somebody’s out of compliance through no fault of their own, call it
12 month, I’m fine with that.
Rick Mohrig: And the question really is directed at the concerns about, okay,
we’re talking about Matilda’s, we’re talking about this type of a
venue. We know what we’re getting. If all of a sudden, someone
else – if that use permit was open-ended, and all of a sudden,
someone else came in and it became a rock venue, or we still –
we’ve talked about decibel ratings.
Curtis Mills: I’d be willing to sign on that too. But what was recommended . . .
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
153
Steve Krokoff: That condition M does not satisfy the condition you’re talking
about.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah. Rick, what you’re asking for is if staff is willing to commit
that it’s Matilda’s with the use permit.
Curtis Mills: Matilda’s-specific with proper verbiage, so it didn’t end up – I
mean, if she took on a partner, or you know, and –
Joe Lockwood: There’s got to be some kind of succession or something.
Curtis Mills: Yeah. Some kind of change of control clause that made sense. I
wouldn’t have an issue with either, because we spent weeks with
the McCurrys, and Mark and Mary Jane before even deciding to do
it. So, I wouldn’t have an issue with that.
Rick Mohrig: And what about designation of specific number of parking spots?
Because I . . .
Curtis Mills: We’re essentially gonna do that.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah. I guess you’ve committed to parking [crosstalk] [06:45:39].
Rick Mohrig: But that’s something that could be put into . . .
Joe Longoria: Well, the parking lot’s –
Joe Lockwood: Tied to the people.
Joe Longoria: – tied to the people. The attendance.
Curtis Mills: Yeah. So, my only hurdle on that was confirming mathematically
and geometrically that we had enough space to do whatever we
needed to do, even if it meant [audio cuts out] [06:46:04]
property. And for any kind of significant other use, we did [audio
cuts out] saw a sample layout. There’s two. But that’s the plan.
I’m not gonna inconvenience anyone or risk people getting towed
on other corners, or do whatever we have to do at the max level.
And that’ll depend on whether a cap remains in place or what it is,
etc.
Rick Mohrig: Okay, thanks. I’m good.
Joe Lockwood: You’re good? Okay. Go ahead.
Peyton Jamison: So, I guess I’m boiling down – because I would like to make a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
154
motion, but I know we have a lot of flowing targets here. So, I
almost feel like I need to make a motion to kind of figure out
where we are on all these different items. So, if you all don’t mind,
I’m gonna take a stab at it, and then we can at least have a
discussion on that motion, and let’s see if we hit on these targets,
okay?
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Yeah.
Peyton Jamison: I’m gonna take a stab at it. Ken, just kick me when I’m going in
the wrong direction. So, I’d like to make a motion to approve the
U18-07, and it be approved conditional, further, with VC18-06,
Parts 1, 2, 3, 4 – I mean, so we want to keep the three-year renewal
period, which is VC18-06. Approve Parts VC, or approve Part 5, 6,
7, 8, and 9 with staff-recommended conditions, with the
modification of the permit to be through April 1st through
November 30th, with a limit of 26 events. And that was 3A – I
guess 3, I guess. And then the decibel reading, which is – where’s
the decibel reading?
Joe Longoria: Three.
Peyton Jamison: The decibel reading at 65 continuous. We’re just starting here,
okay? We’re just starting.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Peyton Jamison: So, 65 continuous. And do we put maximums on the prior ones?
On Little River, do we have maximum?
Robyn MacDonald: That was the 45. It was the 45.
Peyton Jamison: 45 was the peak?
Robyn MacDonald: It was not to exceed, yeah.
Peyton Jamison: Not to exceed 45? Okay, so. Oh, I’m not starting it off here. Just
not to exceed 65.
Joe Longoria: No, no. I was . . .
Peyton Jamison: Not to exceed 65 decibels. And add the connection of the use
permit to be tied to the operators of Matilda’s, since they said they
are willing to do that. That’s my motion [inaudible] [06:49:41].
So, yeah.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
155
Rick Mohrig: And are you also changing the 25 [audio cuts out] [06:49:46] 60
feet in number two?
Peyton Jamison: Two what?
Rick Mohrig: On item number two.
Peyton Jamison: Yeah, that’s in the recommended – they changed, corrected in the
recommended conditions. So, that’s just the start of the discussion.
Joe Longoria: Okay. Did you mention, or is the 200 attendance in the
recommendation?
Peyton Jamison: Yes. The 200 is in the staff’s recommendation, but you brought up
a point. I do want to add that I think the applicant should be
allowed to have two what I would consider special events, not to
exceed 250 people. And at those special events, an off-duty police
officer should be required. That’s just starting. That’s just starting.
Okay.
Joe Lockwood: All right.
Peyton Jamison: That’s my motion.
Matt Kunz: I’ll give it a second.
Peyton Jamison: Now we’ll have some discussion.
Joe Lockwood: All right. We have a motion [audio cuts out] for approval by
Councilmember Jamison and a second from Councilmember Kunz.
And I’ll open it up for discussion.
Joe Longoria: So, here’s my concerns. I don’t like imposing things that, A, can’t
be measured, and B, can’t be followed. So, [audio cuts out]
[06:51:08] to that, I’m concerned about the 65 dB limit.
Peyton Jamison: Well, what do you mean? What can’t be measured and followed?
Joe Longoria: Well, if it can’t be measured, that’s bad. If it can’t be followed,
that’s bad. 65 dB, I think, is, I mean, tight. I have a peak voice of
65 dB. So, to me, the music needs to be able to go above 65 dB,
otherwise it’s really not music; it’s Muzak. It’s elevator music.
Peyton Jamison: And so, just based on their numbers, the continuous –
Joe Lockwood: 71.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
156
Peyton Jamison: – is 71 at the property line –
Joe Longoria: Right.
Peyton Jamison: He’s completely fine with it.
Joe Longoria: Right. Right. So, that’s why I’m saying, 65, he’s in violation.
Peyton Jamison: So, that was my point on where if the property owner has to make
the complaint in order for him to be in violation.
Joe Longoria: Any citizen in this city can make a complaint, okay? They’re
gonna have to explain where the complaint is emanating from, and
they’re gonna have to have kind of a vested interest in that
location. So, as a homeowner, I can complain, because sitting on
my porch, I hear these guys being too loud, I can’t run over to
another spot in town and say, I’m over here now, and it’s too loud
over here too.
Peyton Jamison: Correct.
Joe Longoria: I’ve got to have some [audio cuts out] interest in that.
Peyton Jamison: So, my question is, this officer can go to the nearest property line
and enforce it?
Steve Krokoff: Yeah, I’m not entirely sure you have to have standing in the
property, even though I did previously allude to that. I don’t
believe you have to have standing in the property.
Joe Longoria: Oh, okay.
Steve Krokoff: But I know where you got that from. It was from me. It is at the
nearest property line. That being said, the police officer also has
discretion in enforcing that noise ordinance. And if someone is
going to move onto this property line with or without the blessing
of the person who’s property that they just entered, well plain to
the decision as to whether [audio cuts out] or of how that officer
may deal with that situation. They obviously have the discretion,
anywhere from morning to [audio cuts out] [06:53:22]. And I
would have to assume that that officer would take in the totality of
the circumstance, the history associated with it, and make an
important decision.
Peyton Jamison: So, on the decibel level, it’s a nonstarter. 70, it’s whatever the
peak.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
157
Peyton Jamison: 70.
Peyton Jamison: 70 continuous.
Joe Longoria: So, I think if we set 75 as the limit and not get bogged down in
peak and continuous; just say 75 dB is the max sound that can
emanate from the venue, I think that covers what it is we need.
Peyton Jamison: But I also want to go back – but when we did Little River, [audio
cuts out] 45. Now we’re going to 75.
Joe Longoria: Right.
Peyton Jamison: So, we’re making some jumps here.
Carter Lucas: 45 was inside. This is an outside venue.
Joe Longoria: Right. So, for an inside noise to get outside of a building and travel
– Little River, it was a long distance to the property line. Get all
the way there. I’m a little bit amazed that we even passed that, to
tell you the truth.
Peyton Jamison: Yeah!
Joe Longoria: But obviously, I guess, it’s okay.
Peyton Jamison: It’s worked out good.
Joe Longoria: Because there hasn’t been any complaints about that, has there?
Peyton Jamison: So, I guess, where you all thinking 75 decibels? I mean, we’re kind
of go – one down, one by one. [Crosstalk] [06:54:49]
Matt Kunz: They can’t do anything at 65, so we have to.
Joe Lockwood: So, what do you guys think? 75?
Joe Longoria: I’m saying 75. I was gonna go into the nuances of continuous
versus peak, but I think that just makes things very confusing. I’m
also – we could save this for a later date. I’m a little concerned that
we’re trying to change the standard that we operate at to 85,
because I just don’t think that’s gonna be right. But we can save
that discussion for later.
Peyton Jamison: How about the three-year period?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
158
Joe Lockwood: What are you saying? Just go one by one. 75?
Peyton Jamison: Yeah. We got the decibel level, right?
Joe Lockwood: Mark that down, 75. Because then we’ll confirm all this. We’ve
got a motion, a second, and we’re about to change it.
Joe Longoria: Right.
Peyton Jamison: Absolutely. Yeah, I plan on this motion just denying, and then
we’re gonna get the right measure.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. All right.
Peyton Jamison: How about the three-year renewal? Because this is where I’m
going with this. We have a lot of [audio cuts out] [06:55:48]
when I came into this meeting, I was like, absolutely not. We’ve
got to take that three-year renewal period away. If we want to
welcome business in Milton, let’s let them do it. Let’s get these
conditions tight and do it. But I didn’t get enough answers to my
questions, is kind of why I want to keep the three-year on there for
the time being. That’s where I’m at right now.
Joe Longoria: I would agree with that. I think that the community is making a lot
of concessions in order to allow this use, and I think that it’s
reasonable to expect that a three-year renewal period provides
them with a feeling of assurance or comfort that things can be
adjusted if needed.
Joe Lockwood: I want to ask Ken, how will that work? Just three from now, it
automatically will come up on our calendar to renew it?
Ken: That’s correct. It’ll come back up.
Joe Lockwood: Are there parameters are gonna be set, just so it’s fair to both
sides? So somebody just can’t say, no, we don’t like it?
Ken: Well, in three years, obviously you’ll have a track record of
operations. You’ll be able to compare that against the way your
code reads and the [audio cuts out] of consideration that you
should give and granted in the first place. And my expectation
would be is you will decide again whether or not you want to re-up
this permit.
Joe Lockwood: And the question being, if the applicant were to agree to that,
basically, does that put this in the same almost quasi-zoning
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
159
edition that we’re at now, starting over?
Ken: Right. I mean, I’m gonna have to counsel you all and the city
manager on what I think that looks like procedurally, because I
stand by my previous instruction that it’s in the form of another
zoning action. Whether it’s a zoning action to take away the use
permit or to – we’re calling it renewal. I would just call it leave it
alone, is what I’m thinking it is. Because use permits, I believe, run
with the land. And once they are granted, they are granted. So,
what I would think the better legal position is, is that in three years,
we will be reviewing this under the zoning procedures law from
the perspective of whether to take it away.
Joe Lockwood: And then, so, versus having to renew it, just reviewing it to take it
away if they didn’t meet certain standards.
Ken: That’s right.
Joe Lockwood: I feel more comfortable with that, or that we could just go [audio
cuts out] [06:58:21] if for some reason there is a problem, we can
take it away.
Ken: You can take it away.
Joe Lockwood: But it’s not an automatic.
Ken: That’s correct. And members of the council, I mean, if you wanted
to review it before three years, you could review it before three
years. You could review it in two years, or in 18 months.
Joe Longoria: Could do it in two months.
Ken: Well, I’m just saying, don’t get wrapped around the axle of three
years, is my only . . .
Matt Kunz: Because part of my thinking, too, and I – obviously, we have some
of us trying to make an investment in the city of Milton, which we
always appreciate. So, I understand this concern from a three-year
perspective. But if we had an earlier review, whether it be one
year, whether you do six months or whatever, so we can get a feel
in the community how it’s going and look at it prior to making
substantial investments – I know he’s made some originally, but
before he makes a significant amount, maybe we can do something
like that. Of course, a question for the applicant, if he’d be
amenable to something like that. But it’s just a suggestion.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
160
Joe Longoria: Are you adding more reviews?
Matt Kunz: No, no. To have an earlier review. But one that may not impact
him, his fears, significantly investment-wise. Because if he goes
three years, he’s made a huge investment up until that point in time
anyway to get it all going. If we do one earlier prior to his making
the restrooms built or whatever, he has less of a cost at that point.
But maybe we can see how some of these venues are looking at
that point with the –
Joe Lockwood: I’m gonna guess that most of it upfront’s gonna be in the first year,
[crosstalk] [06:59:47] besides the restrooms.
Matt Kunz: Yeah, I imagine most of it would be too. But it might be a way to
alleviate some of that, is just what I was thinking, so. Just a
thought.
Joe Longoria: Well, as long as we’re talking about –
Joe Lockwood: Excuse me. And this is my position. I’d like to see where legally,
we had the opportunity to go back, just as you said, Ken, at any
time. If there was a problem with it, we could make a correction or
remove it, versus having to just set up on a certain window or a
certain timeline, come three years.
Ken Jarrard: Well, the council always, always has the right, always has that
right to have – habitual code enforcement violations or habitual
complaints, you’d always have the right to do that. And I just want
to go ahead and go on record now and state that, though, in three
years, if there’s been a substantial change of financial position
which is [audio cuts out] upon this permit that you’ve granted, I
think it would be difficult. It’s difficult to take that away. I mean,
think of it this way. If it was a residential zoning, and you’re not
sure exactly what it’s gonna look like and the burden it’s gonna be
on the adjoining property owners, and you say, in three years now,
we’re gonna consider taking away that zoning, it’s challenging.
There’s gonna be a significant financial investment at that point.
So, we just need to think about that. I like Councilmember Kunz,
the earlier, the better. If this is a concern, that you want to have
sort of your finger on this, then I would not recommend waiting 36
months.
Joe Lockwood: Yes, sir. I don’t know. Well, and again, we’re speaking for the
applicant. He’s welcome to [audio cuts out] [07:01:22]. Mr.
Mills, do you have any input on the discussion?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
161
Curtis Mills: Yeah. I’d rather sooner than later. I mean, if this is approved, and
we’re successful in starting up, get first season burned in, you’re
gonna know everything you need to know in six months. And I’m
not trying to calculate anything to maximize the number of shows
we get before you have a chance to have a crack at it. I mean, if we
can’t get it right, I don’t want it there. And they don’t want it there.
So, to Councilmember Kunz, the point about maybe deferring cost,
some cost. What do I do with 620 feet of trees if this thing gets
shut down? Do you all want to buy them? And bathrooms may be
an example. But I wouldn’t have an issue with a faster one. We
haven’t talked about it, but I bet y’all agree, right? Yeah, they
wouldn’t have a – particularly if we could sit down and say, let’s
define what success looks like, so we can make sure we’re on
target in six months. My issue wasn’t so much three years as for
the rest of the Planet Earth’s life.
Joe Lockwood: Every three years, you mean.
Curtis Mills: Every three years is the bigger issue. But anyway, that’s a long
answer to your question. I wouldn’t mind one at six months, at the
end of the first season, if y’all thought that made sense. Because
we’re gonna know very quickly if this noise thing is a problem.
And if it’s a problem, we’re gonna either fix it, or we’re gonna
leave. And it’s not gonna take three years to figure that out.
Joe Lockwood: Well, that’s an option, then, if you want to do it earlier.
Peyton Jamison: When do you plan on opening it up? I’m just curious. When is
your first – if this passes, when’s your first show?
Curtis Mills: If we’re fortunate, July.
Peyton Jamison: And your season ends October 31st or November 30th?
Curtis Mills: Well, I think November 30th.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. [Inaudible] [07:03:50] Okay. [Crosstalk] [07:03:53]
That’s something to definitely think about. But if we put that in
place, if the motion is in place and we change the motion, then –
this expires on November 30th, right? Will we be seeing a whole
new application come forward, or are we just – I mean, how’s that
gonna look?
Ken Jarrard: My recommendation would be – I mean, you’ve got your
ordinance. You’ve got the ordinance. I mean, the way you read the
original motion, I did not hear that you were agreeing to the – that
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
162
you wanted the three-year review, is the way I –
Peyton Jamison: Yeah, we wanted the three-year review.
Ken Jarrard: That’s right. So, that’s what in the motion right now. My vision for
this would simply be just to have direct staff to put this on an
agenda in six months and just do an assessment. I don’t think there
needs to be anything more formal than that.
Peyton Jamison: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: When you say an assessment, let’s assume everything went well.
The public was happy, everything else that could be expected.
Ken Jarrard: Then no action.
Joe Lockwood: Then we’d take no action? We would just bring it up and say
everything’s going fine, and . . .
Ken Jarrard: That’s correct.
Joe Longoria: So then, what happens? Then two-and-a-half years from now, we
have to do it again?
Joe Lockwood: That’s kind of my –
Joe Longoria: Or every six – at the end of every season, we review it.
Joe Lockwood: I’m reading this as a one-time thing.
Peyton Jamison: A one and done?
Joe Lockwood: As far as the three-year versus . . .
Joe Longoria: Well, that’s even more reason to have it at three years, because one
season, one sample isn’t really averaging anything other than one
sample. We need more data to figure out, does it work, does it not
work?
Peyton Jamison: I’m thinking if we did a six -month, and we have an assessment
after six months, which they’re gonna be July, August, September,
October – four, you’re looking at 16, maximum 16 shows. We’re
gonna have a pretty good idea if the community wants this or not. I
mean –
Joe Lockwood: Or if there’s problems.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
163
Peyton Jamison: Or if we have some issues. Remember, we’re just starting the
motion here.
Joe Longoria: I got it. I just know it’s difficult to sway public opinion in a short
period of time. It’s easier to sway if – to your point, if what we’re
really trying to do is see if this works for the community, six
months from now, people are gonna think exactly the way they
think today. They’re not gonna change their minds. It’s gonna take
them longer to change their minds. So, we’re gonna artificially be
battling the same issues we’re dealing with today, and we’re gonna
be sitting in a meeting until 2:00 in the morning [audio cuts out]
the same stuff we’re talking about tonight.
Peyton Jamison: So, you want to do the six-month and the three-year. Is that what
you’re saying?
Joe Longoria: No! That’s not what I’m saying!
Peyton Jamison: Okay! Because I think we’re on the same page.
Joe Longoria: Oh.
Peyton Jamison: I think.
Joe Longoria: See, I told you, my brain’s shutting down.
Ken Jarrard: All right. Well, then I don’t understand.
Joe Lockwood: I think you were saying six months. He’s saying three years.
Peyton Jamison: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: He’s saying you want more time under your belt.
Peyton Jamison: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: But I think, to your point, I don’t know that you’re trying to
change people’s minds. Some people’s minds – you’re trying to
test this to make sure that there’s no [crosstalk] [07:06:56].
Ken Jarrard: All right, if I may, let me just offer a thought. I thought y’all were
doing two different things. I thought the six months sort of came
from Councilmember Kunz, embraced by Councilmember
Jamison, was to get an early assessment if there were any glaring
problems so that we could perhaps shut it [audio cuts out] before
there was too big of a capital infusion. The three-year is just
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
164
something different. That may in fact be after there as been more
of a steady historical accounting of how they’re doing once they
have perhaps invested more funds. So, I don’t know that they’re
mutually exclusive. Do the math here.
Joe Lockwood: Well, the three-year, the applicant – some had heartburn over the
three year. So, the six-month was to go ahead and try it out, so that
before they put in all the investment, then they didn’t have to
worry about it three years, it gets pulled out – the rug.
Ken Jarrard: I don’t disagree with that. I’m just suggesting that you can do both.
Joe Lockwood: I don’t think we’re trying to add two.
Matt Kunz: Right. And so, I want to be clear on that as well. So, if there was a
six-month deal review, we look at it. But that also doesn’t mean
that we can’t still continue to have revocable parameters in there
for Matilda’s continuously beyond the six months.
Ken Jarrard: It does not.
Matt Kunz: Right? And also, too, if there are problems that are coming up and
we need to bring them back in, we can always do that at any point
in time. That is right in the power of the council. Is that correct?
Ken Jarrard: That’s correct.
Joe Lockwood: That goes back to my initial point. We have [audio cuts out]
[07:08:16] anyways, correct?
Ken Jarrard: Well, right now, the way the original motion was made, we’re
looking at this in three years because the original motion did not
include the variance.
Joe Lockwood: That’s what we’re talking about, whether we change it or not. My
point just in this conversation right now, don’t we have the ability
at six months, or a year, or three years, or five years –
Ken Jarrard: Yes, sir.
Joe Lockwood: – to bring it back?
Ken Jarrard: Yes, sir.
Joe Lockwood: So, why are we setting right now the exact date?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
165
Peyton Jamison So, I don’t need to put six months, a review a period. If we want to
see it in six months, we can just say. So, I can call up Little River
Farms and say, you know what? You had a bad weekend. I want
you to come up to city council. I want to see how you’re doing.
Ken Jarrard: Absolutely.
Peyton Jamison Man.
Matt Kunz: Well, I think the community would be happy if we had a review
period. That’s what I’ve been hearing.
Curtis Mills: That makes me a little uncomfortable.
Joe Longoria Right. We just took one sword of Damocles, and we turned it into
an infinite number.
Joe Lockwood: I think you need to make the decision, either none, but we can
revoke it at any time, or it’s six months or a three-year. But yeah,
you can’t – well, I said you can’t. You can do whatever you want.
Matt Kunz: So, the power for our review is gonna be there regardless of what
we do. That’s always gonna be there. The question’s if we’re
gonna have a scheduled review at any point actually
communicated and put on agendas, starting with the staff, put it on
the calendar. The community gets an expectation it’s coming
before us. But regardless if we have it or not, the power still rests
with us to bring it back at any given time.
Ken Jarrard: Yeah. The council has the authority to conduct these reviews.
Now, what your options are gonna be on an established business
are gonna be considerably less than what we have with something
that already has a finite three-year lapse of the permit anyway. I
hope you all understand the distinction I’m making. But yeah, I
mean, that’s right. You always have the ability to look at this.
Peyton Jamison: I guess the issue now that we’ve kind of brought up is, if they’re
doing everything by the code – they’re under 75, but you know
what? It is just a nightmare. It’s a zoo out there. But they’re doing
everything by the book by law, you’re saying we could say, never
mind. Let’s come in for an assessment.
Ken Jarrard: I’m saying the way your ordinance is drafted right now, there is an
expectation that in 36 months, this permit expires.
Peyton Jamison Okay. On the 36-month point.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
166
Ken Jarrard: Mm-hmm.
Peyton Jamison But if the 36-month [audio cuts out], that’s not true.
Ken Jarrard: If you all vary and take that away, then obviously, it’s expected
it’ll go full-steam ahead. And if they’re compliant with the code,
they’ll be expecting never to be in front of the council again.
Peyton Jamison So, we’re keeping the 36-month in there, though.
Joe Longoria I think that makes the most sense.
Peyton Jamison Yeah, no. That’s where I’m at.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Explain that 36 months. Is that just a review of it, or does it
expire, and they have to start over the same process?
Ken Jarrard: Well, the way the – let me read it to you. The festival or event shall
be limited to a three-year period from the date of the city council’s
approval. So, that’s the way the city of Milton code reads with – I
think a natural, unconstrained reading of that suggests that in three
years, this use permit expires. I have shared with you all my
feelings about that because I believe this is in the nature of zoning,
which I think requires compliance with the zoning procedures
[audio cuts out] they’re for. If we’re gonna do that in three years,
it’ll come back in front of the council, as you might expect. But I
think what we’re gonna have to do is we would have to take formal
action to actually terminate it under the zoning procedures law.
That’d be my recommendation.
Joe Lockwood: Because again, this is trying to force a round [audio cuts out] peg
in a round whole. And we’re talking about a festival. Instead of in
three years, this goes away, and they’ve got to come back and forth
and potentially start from scratch, could it not be changed to where
in three years, we have an opportunity to take a look at it?
Joe Longoria To review it?
Joe Lockwood: To review it. Not that it goes away automatically, and then they’ve
got to apply, but a three-year review.
Ken Jarrard: And my recommendation would be to you is, since that’s the literal
language in the ordinance, then let’s grant the variance and then
draft whatever condition you want to draft. Because that’s not what
the ordinance says. So, I would recommend grant the variance
then, and then draft whatever sort of review in three years language
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
167
you want to add.
Matt Kunz: So, grant the variance means to remove the three-year, and then
add one that actually says that we review [crosstalk] [07:12:35].
Ken Jarrard: Right.
Joe Lockwood: If we had stipulations.
Ken Jarrard: Stipulate that it’s gonna come back in front of the council for a
review in 36 months.
Joe Lockwood: But if we were gonna do that, we need to do that tonight, right?
Ken Jarrard: That’d be my recommendation.
Matt Kunz: To do that, I would suggest we get rid of – we grant the variance
for three, but actually adding a one-year.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah. Or add something, yeah.
Matt Kunz: A one-year review on that. And that way, we do that it that way.
Ken Jarrard: Okay. Perfectly fine too.
Peyton Jamison A one-year and a three-year. [Crosstalk] [07:13:02]
Peyton Jamison So, now we’re just doing a one-year review. So, just [audio cuts
out] goes away. We’re just doing one year.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. All right. But keep in mind, you’re talking two different
things. It’s not just a review.
Peyton Jamison Right. I got it. I got it.
Joe Lockwood: A review is different than if it goes away. [Crosstalk] [07:13:19]
Peyton Jamison: So, it’s a one-year review, but it’s in perpetuity. There is no use
permit that – I understand.
Joe Lockwood: Right.
Curtis Mills: So, coupled with the line of thought that it might allow a deferral
of investment until you know, until your confidence is higher, so
reducing the risk. I don’t mind putting money into it. I just don’t
want it to be stupid risky, right? So, I wonder if there isn’t a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
168
scenario where – I want an administrative review. I could do my
own, right? We’re gonna know what the readings are. We’re gonna
know if people are upset. We’re gonna know if it’s working. We’re
gonna know if we got traffic problems, etc., etc. Anecdotally, I’ll
have a pretty good sense of it. But I don’t know that I don’t want
some sort of an administrative [audio cuts out] check. Maybe I
should just do it myself. But where I’m going with that is, if I
could defer for a reasonable period any substantial investments like
the landscape buffer – if it’s gonna go away, I don’t want to plant
trees forever. Not if [audio cuts out] gonna go away.
But if there’s a way to defer that until our confidence collectively
ratchets up, heck, I’d love that. Any of it. Bathrooms, right? We
want to do it right, but I also don’t want to get into any kind of a
hysterical fight later on. So, I’m just planting that seed, whether it
was six months or a year. So, a year may be too long in your minds
to defer something like a landscape buffer. But maybe six months
isn’t, or maybe November 30th isn’t. I’d love that increased
confidence that it’s working, not just from y’all’s standpoint, but
my own as well. If there’s a path forward, that would be helpful
from the overall risk standpoint.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. One option, then, is to six months, and the reason I say six
months, and it’s a give and take on either side, because if the
applicant [audio cuts out] put in the landscape for six months, it’ll
allow them to have this season. The landscape buffer is probably
better [audio cuts out] next fall. It could either come to us in a
meeting or almost even a work session prior.
Ken Jarrard: Agreed.
Joe Lockwood: And we discuss, how’s everything going? Let’s say it wasn’t going
well at all. Then we could put it to our next meeting or whatever
schedule then to actually take the use permit away, correct?
Ken Jarrard: We could, yes.
Joe Lockwood: I mean, is that how you would – or versus the way I read it saying
now, it just automatically goes away after a certain period, and
then you have to redo it. I don’t like that, because what if it’s going
great and the community loves it? Why does it go away?
Ken Jarrard: Right. Yeah, that’s right.
Joe Lockwood: But the six months allows on the short end to feel it out, but also
allows the applicant to feel comfortable then sinking a bunch of
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
169
money into it looking forward, if it works well. But the whole talk
about then having a three-year after that, that just negates the
whole thing. So, just have a three-year . . .
Peyton Jamison That’s why I’m talking about just seeing the statistical data, right?
Joe Longoria Well, no. I’m just saying that six months, what are we actually
gonna prove in six months? Because I think we’re mixing the
business success of the operation versus the public acceptance and
the public view of success of the operation. They can be two
different things.
Joe Lockwood: I don’t think it’s business success at all. I think it’s just, we can put
some parameters, say hey, are they able to keep the noise within
the line, and the traffic, and the operation? Is it a detriment or not
to the public, the community? Rick?
Rick Mohrig: I think a review at six months gives us a good – we’re not waiting
three years. You’re gonna have a sense, is there an issue with
sound? Is there an issue with traffic? They’ve got some time to
actually – if this is what we approve, if this goes forward, it gives a
chance for them to actually [audio cuts out] [07:17:56] some
things, show good faith, and actually address any issues. Or if they
don’t, or if the complaints are constant, then we’re gonna know.
And I like the idea of instead of saying let’s wait three years out, in
fairness to everybody, if we think this is a venue, [audio cuts out]
think this is something that would work, and we address all our
concerns, then I think sooner is better than later from a public and
from a use permit review. So, that’s my thoughts.
Joe Lockwood: Before it gets to 2:00, I’m gonna ask Ken and Steve, I mean, do
you have any comments on that?
Ken Jarrard: Yeah. I mean, I think that can be done. Well, from the standpoint
of procedurally how that would work is that we would need to go
ahead and grant the variance to take it outside of our ordinance.
Then we would add a condition that would require a mandatory
review in six months that would come to a council work session.
Presumably at that point, we’d have input from senior staff. We’d
have input from the applicant. We’d have input from citizens who
live nearby. Hopefully by that time, there will have been a history
of enough concerts where there’s at least some evidence of the
disruption or the lack of the disruption.
And at that point, if the council is persuaded that it is not a fit, that
the things that have been forecast that were too occur have in fact
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
170
occurred, then at that point, you could follow the zoning
procedures law and strip away the use permit. The amount of the
investment by the applicant and owner at that time will have been
de minimis, or hopefully not that great. And [audio cuts out] chalk
it up to an experiment that didn’t work. [Crosstalk] [07:19:30]
Joe Lockwood: If everything’s going good and we do nothing, then the applicant
has the green light to move forward investment-wise, correct?
Ken Jarrard: That would be the expectation, because we would have stripped
away that requirement to come back in three years, so. But if it’s
six months, still tentative, if we’re not comfortable, we’re not sure,
you could simply set by administrative action another review in
another six months or another year.
Joe Lockwood: Steve?
Steve Krokoff: Can I ask you something, Ken? Let’s just say three years down –
everything’s great in six months. Three years down the road, for
whatever reason, this has changed significantly. What is the
threshold that the council would have to meet to be able to
extinguish this use permit? Would there have to be [audio cuts
out] – would we have to show a pattern of noise ordinance
violations, sound, the maybe drunk and disorderly things, things
like that. What would we have to be able to demonstrate for them
to be able to do that and it would stand [crosstalk] [07:20:32]
challenge?
Ken Jarrard: Right. So, this is when I would have to give a primer on
constitutional vesting rights. I mean, at some point, property
owners can invest and basically change position based upon
assurances that the government says that you can’t divest them of
those rights. I’m sorry; that’s just the way the law works. I mean,
the law has to be fair. And what that means is there comes a point,
however, when individuals change their position financially such
that the law deems it inequitable or unfair for the government to
strip away rights and deny them of those expectations, those
financial base expectations, though the city manager just asked,
what would we have to show to take that away? If we get to three
years, the recommendation is that we enforce our codes. We
enforce against the bad behavior. But as far as stripping away
rights that allow them to drive some sort of investment-based
expectation of return after they’ve invested potentially a lot of
money in the property becomes challenging.
What do we have to show, Mr. Mayor? At this point, it would
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
171
depend on what the property looks like at that time, what has
actually occurred. It is a very fact-specific exercise, which is why I
think that to the extent the council has the ability to do an
assessment earlier rather than later, let’s do it earlier. I want to give
you guidance that allows when you finally to decide take action,
there’s actually some action that we can take.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Steve Krokoff: Because you have concerns about the three-year review.
Ken Jarrard: I do. I do.
Joe Lockwood: I agree. And I hate to say it, but to me, it’s like getting married,
making a decision. And so, a year from now, we’re gonna go see a
divorce lawyer. You can always get a divorce, but you’re planning
to fail.
Matt Kunz That’s my wife.
Joe Lockwood: If you’re worried about [audio cuts out], denied, so. All right. So
just assuming we’re going through this motion, and it’s before 2:00
now. You’ve got the decibels.
Peyton Jamison: You’ve got the six-month thingamajigger that Ken’s gonna –
Joe Lockwood: Well, we’re basically – I think we’re talking about, you’re just
taking the three-year thing out of there. Then we’ll add a question
for a review in six months.
Peyton Jamison Correct. Correct.
Peyton Jamison: So, now we’re on the number of events. So, right now, staff
recommended April 1st through October 31st. The motion is April
1st through November 30th. But with 26 events. So, if you actually
had an event every weekend from April 1st through November 30th,
I think that would be two events or so.
Joe Longoria: It’s 36.
Peyton Jamison: So, that’d be nine full months with 36 full events.
Joe Longoria: 32.
Peyton Jamison: Yeah, it’s eight months. Eight times four, right?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
172
Joe Longoria: Right.
Peyton Jamison: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: So, figure one per week, right?
Peyton Jamison: Correct. That’s one per week.
Joe Lockwood: And then occasionally, they might have a makeup one, right?
Peyton Jamison: So, that’s why I said [audio cuts out] a number to start the
discussion. So, I started at 26. I think they are asking for – what
did the application say they asked for the events when it went to
the Planning Commission?
Curtis Mills: We didn’t have a limit.
Peyton Jamison: And they, the Planning Commission, gave what –
Robyn MacDonald: They said either Saturday, or –
Carter Lucas: Or Friday or Saturday, with a maximum number of events.
Robyn MacDonald: Friday and/or Saturday.
Peyton Jamison: Okay. So really, what we should do is delete the maximum – if we
want this to work, you just delete the maximum number of events,
and they just have it Friday or Saturday. You just can’t have it – so
if it rains, you can’t have the event only but one day a week,
correct?
Robyn MacDonald: Well, the Planning Commission was open to Friday and/or
Saturday, not to exceed –
Rick Mohrig Six per month.
Robyn MacDonald: Not to exceed six performances in a month.
Peyton Jamison: I like the Friday or Saturday. Actually, my opinion is just keep the
Friday or Saturday, and just get rid of the cap.
Joe Lockwood: Would you be willing to give them one more per month? Because
I’m assuming the reason you said that is if one gets cancelled.
Rick Mohrig If you have a rain date.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
173
Curtis Mills: There are two this weekend as a makeup for last weekend. There’s
on this Friday and there’s one this Saturday, because last Saturday
was rained out.
Peyton Jamison: Got it, got it, got it.
Joe Lockwood: So, maybe – I mean, if you want a limit to the number, and one
gets rained out on Saturday, you could make it up the next Friday,
but wouldn’t have to cancel their Saturday one. But you’re not
adding a whole bunch of additional concerts.
Peyton Jamison: So, if you put it at 32, then that takes care of it, correct?
Joe Lockwood: And then, I don’t know, worst case – I’d have to ask staff this, and
I’m not saying this needs to be done or not, but if they need to
make one up, could they come [audio cuts out] special permit or
something.
Peyton Jamison: Well, yeah. So, first –
Joe Lockwood: Or that was just for big ones?
Peyton Jamison: So, if we got an add/or Saturday with a limit of 32 events, that
takes care of that.
Peyton Jamison: It should. But – I mean, it takes care of the first issue. The second
issue is, for these events that do draw more than 200, I think they
should have some flexibility once or twice – I mean, my motion
was twice a year, you can apply – just let the Community
Development Department know, we have a special band. It’s
gonna be up to 250 people. And that’d be twice. They can do that
twice a year.
Joe Lockwood: And spitballing here, stipulations, whatever the Community
Development feels they need to have as far as traffic and
enforcement options –
Peyton Jamison: I did have an off-duty police officer required on that. I mean –
Joe Lockwood: They probably need to do a study, too, to see when.
Peyton Jamison: Correct. How are we on that?
Joe Longoria I’m okay.
Joe Lockwood: I don’t know. Let’s . . .
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
174
Peyton Jamison: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: Ms. Potter?
Mary Jane Potter: I think 36 is a good number.
Peyton Jamison: So, 36. So, April, May, June, July, August, September, October,
November. So, you’re planning on having one event every
weekend, plus four. So, for four weekends, you’re planning on
having them on Friday and Saturday.
Mary Jane Potter: Possibly. Uh-huh.
Peyton Jamison: Okay.
Mary Jane Potter: That just gives us an option for various reasons that we would want
to have a Friday night concert. It’s my preference to only do – hm?
Curtis Mills: Five Saturdays.
Mary Jane Potter: Oh. Curtis said there are five Saturdays a month.
Peyton Jamison: So, how often in the last, let’s say, couple years did you do a
Friday and Saturday on the same weekend?
Mary Jane Potter: Maybe four, four or five.
Peyton Jamison: Okay, so twice a year. Okay.
Joe Lockwood: So, are we down to the number, or just –
Peyton Jamison: So, we’re at 32, and then they’re asking for 36. I think we’re doing
a lot right now, to be honest with you. I think we’re gonna do a lot
more than six in six months. So, I mean, let’s keep it tight right
now if it’s working it, and after six months, things are going great,
the community loves it, you know? I mean, that’s Friday evening –
Joe Lockwood: That puts us at some point having to make other decisions, right?
Ken: You’d have to do an amendment at some point to loosen it up,
that’s true, which would require the same process.
Peyton Jamison: I mean, think about it. I mean, let’s say this got a little out of hand,
and you’re losing a Friday and a Saturday night, if you’re a
neighbor. Trying to keep it at 32, but let’s hear from everybody. I
mean . . .
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
175
Joe Lockwood: Well, anybody have any suggestions on the number?
Joe Longoria: Well, I’m very confused; because we’ve increased the number of
months that we’ve heard from the applicant is the typical year, the
season, okay? So, we’ve increased that. And now we’re adding to
that on top of it. And I’m not trying to torpedo a business here.
That’s not my goal. I’ve asked several times the question of how
many events were put on last year? And I want to know what the
typical year is, because I want the typical year to be the typical
year. I don’t want it to be the new improved typical year.
Peyton Jamison: Well, I think she just told us what the typical year was.
Joe Longoria: I heard 20!
Mary Jane Potter: No. I never – I didn’t say that.
Joe Longoria: Okay. What’s a typical year?
Mary Jane Potter: A typical year is May through the end of October. Occasionally,
something may get booked in April or November. But generally,
the weather is what dictates whether we’re able to have an event.
So, if it rains twice in one month, then we need to reschedule those
two concerts.
Joe Longoria: But that’s not increasing the number of events. That’s just moving
when they occur. Because if an event gets cancelled, you don’t
have it.
Mary Jane Potter: Well, that’s true. But if you’re rescheduling it, you’re gonna have
one on Friday night and Saturday night.
Joe Longoria: Right. No, I understand that. We’re trying to put limits on the
number that occur during a month. If the average season is six
months, which is what you just said, right? Through October. Then
you’ve got 26 weekends in there. That means if your optimum
choice was to operate on Saturdays only, you got 26 events that
you can have. Now, let’s toss in another four months where you
can have a Friday and a Saturday if you wanted to. That brings you
to 30. So, to me, 30 sounds like a very reasonable number, based
on all the information you just shared with us.
Peyton Jamison May 1st through October 31st.
Joe Longoria: Right.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
176
Joe Lockwood: And what would the November [audio cuts out] [07:30:44]
brought into this?
Peyton Jamison: They said sometimes y’all do special events in November.
Mary Jane Potter: Sometimes, so, if there are other reasons that we might have one in
November. But that could be a special use – I mean, like a special
event. [Crosstalk] [07:31:04]
Peyton Jamison: I think what she’s getting at is that when they’ve been operating in
Alpharetta, I mean –
Joe Longoria: Nobody cares.
Peyton Jamison: Yeah, it’s like, whatever. And so, I think what I’m trying to do,
and I think what we’re all trying to do, is how do we bring
Matilda’s to Milton and still protect everybody? And so, you’re
saying 30 events is what is typical?
Mary Jane Potter: One a week is what is typical.
Joe Longoria: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: What if, for now, the number’s 30 or whatever. But if you have a
makeup or whatever [audio cuts out] come in to get a Friday
makeup or a special one-time permit? Or is that getting
complicated?
Peyton Jamison: It’s getting too complicated.
Joe Lockwood: Well, then just come up with a number, then. And the dates. Until
it’s 3:00.
Rick Mohrig: I think the simplest way, if we’re gonna try to look at this motion,
is you allow Friday and/or Saturday. That allows [audio cuts out]
have to do something unique if there’s a makeup, and then you
have the total number of events that you’re gonna say is viable.
That addresses it. Otherwise, we’re making it more complicated to
try to figure out some formula. Take the total number of events,
and say and/or. That allows them to actually – if they have a
makeup, if it got cancelled, that doesn’t count. So, then they do the
makeup.
Joe Lockwood: What are we at, 30?
Peyton Jamison: Well, if we go May 1st through October 31st, that’s six months.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
177
Joe Longoria 26 weeks.
Peyton Jamison: So, 26 is where we’re at.
Joe Lockwood: So, should we add a couple to [audio cuts out] if they have a
special –
Peyton Jamison: So, I think we’re getting to 30.
Joe Lockwood: Right. I’m fine with 30.
Peyton Jamison: 30’s fine, yeah.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. And they can do them either Friday or Saturday.
Mary Jane Potter: Do some months have five weekends?
Joe Longoria Well, six months is half a year. There’s 52 weeks in a year.
Therefore, there’s 26 weeks in six months.
Joe Lockwood: That’s where we came up with the 26 and then just added four.
Mary Jane Potter: Okay.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Peyton Jamison: And there’s two special events that could go up to 250 are included
in the 30.
Joe Longoria: Right.
Peyton Jamison: Okay, good.
Peyton Jamison: Those extra events would be included.
Joe Longoria: Got it.
Joe Lockwood: All right. Then, [audio cuts out].
Rick Mohrig: 75 decibels. I think that was –
Joe Lockwood: All right. Do you want to – we have the motion and second. But
procedurally, since we’ve changed it again [crosstalk] [07:33:45].
Ken Jarrard: I really recommend the second withdrawal on the main motion
[crosstalk] [07:33:48].
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
178
Matt Kunz I’ll withdraw my second.
Joe Lockwood: You withdraw the second.
Peyton Jamison: And I’ll withdraw my motion.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. And then if you want to repeat your motion with the –
Peyton Jamison: But I’ll need Ken’s help on the six-month.
Joe Lockwood: Right.
Peyton Jamison: All right. So, I’ll make a motion to approve U18-07, approved
conditional, and further, VC18-06, Parts 1, 2, 3, and 4, approve
that as well. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, with staff’s recommendations with
the following recommendations: that it be 75 decibels continuous
at the nearest property line; to the owner’s agreement, that it be
Friday and/or Saturday; and we’ll run on May 1st to October 31st,
with a maximum of 30 events within that window. Yup, we’re
gonna do –
Matt Kunz Well, no, it was six months.
Peyton Jamison: Well, I’m gonna do that second. So, we’re gonna have 200
attendees, with the exception of two events out of the 30 events
can have a maximum of 250 attendees. And that needs to be
approved by staff beforehand, so we have – and I will ask for one
off-duty officer on those events. And then – oh, Matilda’s as the –
we’re gonna tie this that the use permit is tied to the operator,
Matilda’s, as y’all said that would be perfectly fine. And I’m
gonna have Ken help with the six-month review.
Ken Jarrard: All right. So, there will be an additional condition that says this use
permit shall return to the council at the next work session that is
six months from today’s date for an assessment and status by staff,
the applicant, and stakeholders to discuss the results and
experience of this use permit with the council.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Clarify that, though. That’s a work session where we’re
discussing it.
Ken Jarrard: Mm-hmm.
Joe Lockwood: If the discussion goes good, the community’s [audio cuts out] and
all that, then do we have to move forward taking action?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
179
Ken Jarrard: No.
Joe Lockwood: But if it’s not good, then we move forward taking action.
Ken Jarrard: We would receive our direction at the work session, yes.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Steve Krokoff: Can I make one recommendation on that? Instead of six months
from the date, how about six months from the commencement of
operations?
Joe Lockwood: Yeah, give them a season.
Peyton Jamison Yeah, because that would put us at like the middle of January. I
just don’t know how soon they start.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah, yeah.
Ken Jarrard: I mean, I think that’s fine. I think when I originally did the math, I
thought we had it in – they were starting in July, is what I seem to
remember hearing. And six months, even from today’s date, should
be more than adequate to give them –
Peyton Jamison Correct.
Steve Krokoff: I mean, in this regard.
Joe Lockwood: Because that would give them time to [audio cuts out] their
plantings and all. Because let’s clarify that. Are we giving them
relief, then, on planting their buffer until –
Peyton Jamison Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Robyn MacDonald: Those would be [audio cuts out] conditions [inaudible]
[07:37:13].
Carter Lucas All right. So, there are a number of conditions that are tied to the
issuance of a certificate of occupancy for the building.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Carter Lucas So, if we are going to give some relief on that until the review
period, we’d have to modify those conditions.
Joe Lockwood: Which ones are [audio cuts out]?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
180
Robyn MacDonald: I have, I believe, 4A, because we talked about providing adequate
temporary bathroom facilities, including handicap-accessible
facilities until such time as permanent bathroom facilities can be
provided.
Joe Lockwood: That won’t change.
Robyn MacDonald: Well, I guess that would be okay. I’m sorry. B, 4B, provide the
fence to be consistent with the adjoining property line with a
[audio cuts out] landscape strip, which is what Mr. Mills was
speaking about. So, that’s 4B. And then 4E refers to the similar 10-
foot landscape strip. And I believe that’s about it.
Joe Lockwood: So, really, the main thing we’re talking about is the landscape strip.
The restrooms, you’re gonna have to do anyways, whether it’s
temporary or not.
Robyn MacDonald: And also, the . . .
Peyton Jamison: If we delete it from the recommended conditions, or can’t we just
modify it from the rec – because we have to modify it [audio cuts
out].
Joe Lockwood: [audio cuts out] that we’re just –
Peyton Jamison: Saying at the end of this month.
Joe Lockwood: Saying they’ll do it at the end of six months, if we don’t take
action in the use permit. [Inaudible] [07:38:39] Was there
anything else in there besides the landscape?
Robyn MacDonald: So, 2D says –
Carter Lucas 2A?
Robyn MacDonald: I’m sorry, 2A. I’m reading wrong. It’s too late. We need to kind of
tweak that to make sure we don’t require –
Ken Jarrard: My recommendation is not to get into this. I’m afraid we’re gonna
further complicate an already very complicated matter. That’s my
recommendation.
Joe Lockwood: What’s the –
Rick Mohrig Can we just open the motion for staff’s recommendations
[inaudible] [07:39:17]?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
181
Joe Lockwood: Well, but we still have to address this issue here.
Peyton Jamison The whole issue is not for – we’re trying to get something done so
Curtis doesn’t have to go spend all this money on something – and
that’s why, I mean . . .
Matt Kunz Yeah. How do we state this so that he –
Joe Lockwood: I mean, can you make it cut and dry that the landscape buffer does
not have to go in until after the six months’ review?
Ken Jarrard: If that’s the only issue, yes, that’s very clear. If that’s it. I just
heard more than that.
Peyton Jamison That’s what I was hearing too.
Joe Lockwood What else were you hearing, though? I mean, you talked about the
[crosstalk] [07:39:52].
Peyton Jamison She said four different points, so.
Joe Longoria I don’t think we can take that stuff away. I think they need to stay
in.
Matt Kunz Well, they stay in. It’s the timing. That’s [audio cuts out] it is. So,
it stays in.
Joe Lockwood: Yeah. We’re not talking them away, but it’s just –
Peyton Jamison Are we saying we’re just not gonna enforce it for six months?
Robyn MacDonald Well, I think I can throw some –
Joe Longoria I didn’t think we’d changed any of that language until just now.
Joe Lockwood: We had to.
Roybn MacDonald: So, this is the summer months. And all these issues that we’re
talking about are landscaping. And I think we could maybe do a
[audio cuts out] until such time when it’s the correct time to plant
everything, which is in the fall. Might give him additional time. At
least it would give some time [audio cuts out]
November/December to plant his trees and vegetation.
Joe Lockwood: I mean, that’s the intent, I think.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
182
Peyton Jamison Oh yeah, absolutely.
Joe Lockwood: So, if you can make it simple with a bond. The only thing I would
add, though – they take out a bond and all, and then we end up
pulling it in and revoking it, there would have to be some kind of –
it’d have to give them their bond money back, their bond back,
right? That’d be pretty simple to do, right?
Steve Krokoff: I’m sure we’d be able to handle that administratively.
Peyton Jamison I like that.
Joe Lockwood: All right.
Joe Longoria That’s good. Yeah.
Joe Lockwood: All right. So, do you want to repeat? Can you repeat, and let’s
make sure that we get from Ken and staff?
Peyton Jamison: All right. I’ll repeat. We are going to approve U18-07, be approved
conditional. [Audio cuts out] further, VC18-06, Parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
6, 7, 8, and 9, with staff’s recommended conditions and the
following conditions: that the sound level must not reach above 75
decibels continuous at the nearest property line, okay? 3A [audio
cuts out] be Friday and/or Saturday within each week. Be May 1st
through October 31st, with no more than 30 events within that time
period. No more than 200 attendees, except for two events, they
can have up to 250 attendees with prior staff notification, and
requires one off-duty police offer; and that the use permit is tied to
Matilda’s as the operator. And I’ll let Ken say the six months.
Ken Jarrard: And this use permit shall return to the council at the next work
session that is six months from today’s date for an assessment and
status by staff, the applicant, and stakeholders to discuss the results
and experience of the use permit with the council.
Matt Kunz Do we need language [audio cuts out] the bond? [Crosstalk]
[07:43:07]
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Do we have a second?
Matt Kunz: Second.
Joe Lockwood: All right. I have a motion as read for approval from
Councilmember Jamison, along with our city attorney, and I have a
second from Councilmember Kunz. Any discussion?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
183
Matt Kunz: Yeah. Real quick, I just want to say, I think this was obviously a
long night, and we want to thank all the citizens that are here
tonight. It’s a big deal. We had a lot of residents that were very
passionate about this issue, a lot of discussion, a lot of debate. A
lot of relationships, I think, built with this, and a lot of people I
never met before, I got to meet. These aren’t always easy
discussions. I live and go by the Birmingham Crossroads on a
regular basis. Many of us call that home. We see each other the re
all the time. But we’re all one family, regardless of that. And the
reason why I’m voting for this is because I believe that we have an
opportunity here that we need to look at.
It’s not an easy decision. But I think it’s one that if we do it right,
could be good. We’re also taking the time. I think we can all see
that we have really delved into all of the issues here. So, I want to
commend this council on a lot of work. And not just tonight, but
this is a long process [audio cuts out] the staff as well, but
especially our citizens for communicating with us. All the emails
we got. I just think it was a great thing. And this process has made
us better. So, I just want to say thank you for everybody.
Joe Lockwood: Appreciate that. And I’ll just add too, and appreciate everybody’s
here, respect everybody’s position and see everybody’s point of
view. Hopefully, you and the audience and our citizens realize the
tough job that we have. I can tell you from our side, we’re only
trying to do what we think is best for the community, not only the
local community, but the entire city of Milton and all of our
citizens.
And it’s always tough, because there’s always some folks that
aren’t gonna agree and maybe feel slighted. But it’s a tough one,
because when this came up, you can look at it and go, wow, that’s
great. As one councilmember said, if we can’t do this in Milton,
we might as well just be Alpharetta. Have something quaint, a
great little venue. Our citizens will love it. But then you go talk to
others and neighbors and all that, and you see it from a total
different side, so vice versa. So, it’s really tough. So, to Matt’s
point, hopefully we kind of came up with a [audio cuts out], and
we’ll look at it in six months if there’s issues or whatever. But I
appreciate everybody’s input and all that. So, with that, if there’s
no other comments, I will ask, is the applicant clear on this
motion?
Curtis Mills: Before you vote, I just wanted to clarify a couple of things. I don’t
want to waste anyone’s time and accidentally end up in an okay,
I’m not going forward at 2:00 in the morning. So, I’m not clear on
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
184
the six-month final [audio cuts out]. I heard the word “rescind”
use once, but I didn’t hear it in your readout, Mr. Jarrard, what I
thought it was, was an administrative review. Whatever we want it
to be, but not a rescission point. Is it?
Ken Jarrard: No. It is not a rescission. It is a council-based work session
discussion.
Curtis Mills: That’s what I understood. I just wanted to be clear on that. Is there
something that occurs at three years? If so, there’s nothing that
occurs at three years. So, we don’t have that perpetual sunset thing.
Joe Lockwood: Not at this point.
Ken Jarrard Yeah, that’s been – that’s subject to [crosstalk] [07:47:12].
Curtis Mills: All right. That’s –
Joe Lockwood: This is in six months, we have a work session. We discuss it. We
bring everybody’s input. If everything’s going great, then we do
nothing.
Curtis Mills: No, that’s very helpful.
Joe Lockwood: If you’re doing bad, then we can elect to move forward to make an
action.
Curtis Mills: Understood. Understood. Somehow, we went from April 1st to
11/30 to May 1st to 10/31. And the cap of 200 remained in place.
That’s making their business less than what it is today, both of
those two things. [Audio cuts out] understand that. You’re
shrinking their business. Trying to contain it, but to the point
where it’s less than –
Joe Longoria: I thought we were real specific on that, and I thought we were
supporting exactly what they’re doing today.
Curtis Mills: Well, you’re not, because they started in April, and last year, they
ended on December 1st. Weather permitted –
Joe Longoria We seem to be getting multiple answers to the same question, then.
Curtis Mills: Those are the facts. I mean, in 2018, they started in April. Isn’t that
correct?
Mary Jane Potter: Yes, but it wasn’t a typical year.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
185
Curtis Mills: Well, there is no typical year. I’m just telling you what happened
in 2017 and 2018, knowing that the tails are being cut off. So, it is
what it is. And then what about the reserving of the 400 square feet
of unrelated property? Does that stand, or?
Joe Lockwood: That was included in that.
Peyton Jamison That stands, yeah.
Joe Lockwood: But in the discussion, Carter, it said really all that means i s you
could not build a building on that part.
Curtis Mills: Well, they changed it from the last one to this one. I’m saying
[audio cuts out] have an issue with that. It’s completely unrelated.
Why restrict my property on something completely unrelated to
Matilda’s, just because you want it?
Carter Lucas: Well, that piece of property is all included within the legal
description that’s being considered under this use permit, so it’s a
single piece of property from that perspective.
Curtis Mills: It’s not a rezoning. That’s when you take property. Anyway, I have
–
Carter Lucas: Actually, nothing’s been taken. It’s just a reservation.
Joe Lockwood: All right. We’ve got a motion and a second as read. Any more
discussion? Joe?
Joe Longoria: I didn’t think that that was included in what we were passing. So, I
was not paying very good attention. I don’t think that we need to
attach those two pieces together.
Peyton Jamison But the question I – what Carter clarified is, we’re not taking his
property. I mean, we still have to buy that piece of property at a
future point at some point. What this is doing is, in case we do
need to put maybe a roundabout or some sort of improvements
there, [audio cuts out] put this aside just in case. I mean, I think –
Joe Longoria: So, hold it. Are saying that it’s –
Peyton Jamison He just can’t put a building there.
Joe Longoria: He can’t give it away or sell it to somebody else? Is that what
we’re saying? That if something’s gonna happen to it, it’s gotta –
we have to have first right of refusal or approval, or something?
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
186
Carter Lucas: I’ll give you a quick idea about what we’re looking at there. So,
what we’re talking about is a 20 by 20 reservation, which is right
here in the corner.
Peyton Jamison: Who’s he gonna sell that to?
Carter Lucas: It’s a moderate section.
Joe Longoria: No, no. I get it. I understand.
Carter Lucas: Since we don’t know what GDOT’s plans are, and we can’t
specifically –
Joe Lockwood: At some point, if GDOT comes up with plans and it doesn’t impact
that, can you release that back?
Carter Lucas: Sure.
Joe Lockwood: And if GDOT came up with a plan and needed that, they would
come in and buy that from him anyways, right? Maybe –
Carter Lucas: It would go through the standard acquisition process.
Joe Lockwood: So, I don’t see it where we’re actually taking something excessive
from him.
Joe Longoria: I guess the only question I’ve got is, if this use permit was not in
front of us, would we be taking this action on his property? Then I
guess the question is, why are we attaching that to this event?
Carter Lucas: Because this event covers the entire piece of property, and without
knowing what GDOT is going to do there, it’s an opportunity to
make sure that if a right of way is necessary for that, it reserves
that right of way.
Rick Mohrig: But again, I guess what I’m having a hard time wrapping my head
around is we’re talking about this venue, this opportunity. Why
would we as a government body say, well, because we have this
use permit for Matilda’s or for this venue in front of us, why would
I attach something to say, just in case, I’m gonna limit what I
wouldn’t be doing otherwise? I don’t understand why we’re doing
that.
Joe Lockwood: I guess this is normal . . .
Carter Lucas: It’s actually normal through our zoning process, whether it’s a
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
187
rezoning or a use permit, that we look at future projects and try to
account for those future projects within whatever piece of property
is being considered at that point. If this came in as two different
pieces of property, where we had one piece of property where the
event venue as going to occur, and this was a separate piece of
property related only to the restaurant, we probably wouldn’t have
looked at it. But this was submitted as one piece of property, one
legal description that covered both. Therefore, it was considered as
part of the use permit.
Joe Longoria: So, is there a financial contribution that the applicant is making as
part of this that they [audio cuts out] [07:53:26] wouldn’t have
had to make?
Carter Lucas: No, at this point, the reservation doesn’t do anything but protect
that particular area from a building construction. It doesn’t change
the setbacks. It doesn’t change any of that. All it says [audio cuts
out] for the reservation, you can’t place a structure within [audio
cuts out] area that may impede the right of way acquisition
process at some point in the future.
Curtis Mills: It protects the property from me.
Matt Kunz Right.
Joe Lockwood: And again, when the GDOT comes up with the plan and whatnot,
if they need that property, they purchase it from him, from the
owner. If they don’t – like Carter said, if they don’t need that, then
you revert it back, and the reservation could be removed, correct?
Carter Lucas: Right. If those plans come in and GDOT doesn’t need that for any
of the improvements, there’s no need for the reservation to remain.
Joe Lockwood: Is there a likelihood that you would even build a building on the
edge there? It’s in the setback and all that? I’m just curious, so.
Steve Krokoff: Could anything be built on that piece?
Carter Lucas: Proximity to the intersection? It would be very difficult to do that.
Joe Lockwood: And you’re in the setback and all that, so.
Matt Kunz: I think there’s no need for us to reserve it. I just look at it. I don’t
see Curtis doing anything with it. I think GDOT’ll do it. It’ll
probably sit there. I could be wrong, but that’s a risk we can take.
But I just don’t think it’s right for us to . . .
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
188
Joe Lockwood: Well, right now, it’s in our motion and our second. We’re voting
on it. So –
Matt Kunz: Well, I made the second, right?
Joe Lockwood: You made the second.
Matt Kunz: So, if I withdraw my second, will it make the motion be able to
amend his motion?
Peyton Jamison: How many votes do we need to pass this? [Audio cuts out]
Ken Jarrard: You need three.
Peyton Jamison: Three. Okay. Okay.
Joe Lockwood: Really? I thought we would need four.
Joe Longoria: I thought we needed four.
Ken Jarrard: Yup. You got a quorum right here of five.
Joe Lockwood: But we’ve got somebody who –
Ken Jarrard: It’s the majority of a quorum.
Peyton Jamison But she’s not part of the quorum.
Ken Jarrard: Correct.
Joe Lockwood: Okay.
Ken Jarrard: That’s exactly right.
Joe Lockwood: Oh. Okay. So.
Matt Kunz: Anyway, if I remove my second and [audio cuts out] the motion,
unless you guys think it’s worth it or not.
Joe Lockwood: It’s up to the discussion.
Peyton Jamison: I mean, I don’t see – I don’t think it’s worth it, but that’s just me.
But if this motion fails, then I’ll redo it.
Joe Lockwood: Joe, I mean, what’s your discussion? And then we’re gonna move.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
189
Joe Longoria: Yeah. If it’s no harm, no foul, why do we have the language in
there to begin with?
Peyton Jamison: That’s a question for Carter.
Rick Mohrig: I don’t know what he’s asking.
Peyton Jamison Why is the question – if it is no harm, no foul, why is it there?
Carter Lucas: It was originally in the conditions as the dedication [audio cuts
out] [07:56:19], which would normally be part of our rezoning
process.
Joe Longoria: Right. That’s much different.
Carter Lucas: And that’s [audio cuts out] different. As we went through that
with a system improvement, we felt it was probably more
appropriate to take it as a reservation as opposed to a dedication.
Joe Lockwood: Let me ask in the [audio cuts out] then. Let’s assume we took it
out. Is that gonna affect anything moving forward when GDOT
gets ready to do their plan?
Carter Lucas: They would go through the same acquisition process.
Rick Mohrig: Then let’s let them do that instead of us.
Matt Kunz: So, I’ll withdraw my second.
Peyton Jamison: I’ll remove my motion.
Joe Lockwood: Okay, now we’re starting back to scratch with do I have a motion?
Joe Longoria: Just delete the one thing [crosstalk] [07:57:06].
Joe Lockwood: He would just say he’s repeating his motion minus.
Peyton Jamison: My motion, minus the – delete 5C.
Matt Kunz: Second.
Joe Lockwood: All right. I have a motion as read previously, Councilmember
Jamison deleting five, but this time, deleting 5C and adding what
the city attorney added. And therefore, the six-month term, with a
second from Councilmember Kunz. All in favor, please say aye.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
190
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That was unanimous. [Inaudible] [07:57:43]
We’ve still got the rest of our meeting, so. Thank you all for being
here so late. I apologize for taking so long. All right. Sudie, let’s
move on. If you’ll please call the next item.
Sudie Gordon: The next item is consideration of RZ18-10, to amend Section 64-1
definitions, agenda item number 18-180. The first presentation was
at the June 4th meeting, discussed at the June 11th work session.
Mr. Carter Lucas.
Carter Lucas: Well, good morning, Mayor and Council. This agenda item, we
discussed at our last work session, and is related to changes that
will be coming forward under Chapter 50. These two zoning items,
because of the timeframe, had to remain. We’ll be bringing the
Chapter 50 forward in July. But these two changes, two
definitions, were to be consistent with definitions that we have in
Chapter 50. So, this updates the definition of a preliminary plat and
adds the definition of a modified driveway that we discussed last
week in support of the large lot developments. That’s all I have.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Do we have any public comment on this, Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: We do not, sir.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I’ll close that part of the public hearing. Now, questions.
Joe, were you raising your hand?
Joe Longoria: No, I was gonna make a motion.
Joe Lockwood: All right. You’re welcome to do that.
Joe Longoria: All right. I move that we approve RZ18-10, agenda item number
18-180.
Rick Mohrig: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion for approval from Councilmember
Longoria, second from Councilmember Mohrig. All in favor,
please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: Any opposed? That’s unanimous, Sudie.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
191
Carter Lucas: Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: Cheer up, Shannon. Moving on to our final zoning agenda item.
Sudie, will you please call that item?
Sudie Gordon: This item is consideration of RZ18-11, to amend Article 17,
Development Regulations Section 64-2395, Section 64-2397, and
Section 64-2398, agenda item number 18-181. First presentation
was at the June 4th meeting and discussed at the June 11th work
session. Mr. Carter Lucas.
Carter Lucas: Mayor, these were a couple of sections that we thought may have
needed to be amended through the zoning process in relationship to
the large lots. It did not need to be amended, so we’re just asking
for a withdrawal on this particular item.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Any questions?
Matt Kunz: I’ll make a motion that we withdraw agenda item number 18-181.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. Do I have a second?
Laura Bentley: Second.
Joe Lockwood: I have a motion from Councilmember Kunz, second from
Councilmember Bentley for withdrawal. [Audio cuts out] the way
I’d say it. But you know what? I need to make sure – we didn’t
have any public comment?
Sudie Gordon: We do not, sir.
Joe Lockwood: So, I’m gonna close the hearing, and then, Matt, if you’ll repeat
your motion.
Matt Kunz: Yeah, I’ll make a motion that we withdraw agenda item 18-181.
Joe Lockwood: And a second, Councilmember Bentley.
Laura Bentley: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Motion from Councilmember Kunz, second from Councilmember
Bentley. All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: That’s unanimous.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
192
Carter Lucas: Thank you.
Joe Lockwood: All right. I think we move on to new business now, Sudie?
Sudie Gordon: [Audio cuts out] [08:01:24]
Joe Lockwood: Oh, sorry.
Joe Longoria: Can I ask a real quick question?
Joe Lockwood: Yup, absolutely.
Joe Longoria: Is either one of these new business items something that needs to
be voted on today?
Steve Krokoff: We have a [audio cuts out] that’s been here for eight hours [audio
cuts out].
Joe Longoria: We did that to somebody?
Steve Krokoff: We did. Well, have to keep it in order.
Peyton Jamison: Billed by the hour.
Steve Krokoff: So, I’d appreciate if you would consider the – actually, I don’t
even know if the other one – it may be a time issue as well for the
referendum.
Ken Jarrard: Yeah, we’ve got to.
Sudie Gordon: Who is Jim Jacobi?
Ken Jarrard: Resolution for calling elections, we need to get done.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. All right. If you would call this, Sudie.
Joe Longoria: Well, the problem was, we’ve lost all of our public participation,
and I know the first item under new business is something that
people want to contribute to.
Rick Mohrig: And there were people here that wanted to –
Sudie Gordon: Yes, there were. I had two public comment cards.
Joe Lockwood: Again, [audio cuts out] obviously we want to read the public
comment cards for this.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
193
Ken Jarrard: Sure, we can read them, and we have every right to go forward if
no one’s here, and no one is here. So, no problem there. It’s just
regrettable, how long the meeting went. But that can’t be helped.
Joe Lockwood: And I’ll ask Jim, what’s the – and obviously, respectful of the
consultant and staff and time here, but also thinking about the
public that might want to have been involved, what would the
option be if we deferred? What would that be? Is that an option or
not?
Steve Krokoff: I’ll answer that. It’s certainly an option. It’s just, I brought Jim on
here – it’s his vacation day, and again, the consultant was here for
eight hours. That’s not a reason not to defer, but I wish we would
have made that decision upfront.
Rick Mohrig: And I agree. I just don’t think – none of us would have anticipated
that we would be here still at almost 2:30 in the morning.
Joe Lockwood: But I would say we knew we’d be here until probably midnight or
so, right?
Joe Longoria All right, let’s go.
Joe Lockwood: You guys are all right with hearing this?
Peyton Jamison: Yeah.
Joe Lockwood: All right. Come on, Jim. So, you get two days of vacation.
Yesterday and today.
Jim Cregge Thank you. Good evening. Hi.
Laura Bentley: Good morning.
Jim Cregge Okay. Good morning, Mayor and Council. Presented before you is
the final draft of the Providence Park master plan. The plan itself is
unchanged from what was presented to you at the May 14th
workshop. We did some citizen feedback from – we did receive
citizen feedback following that meeting on the 14th regarding the
playground. So, I wanted to take a minute and let you know that in
talking to citizens as well as with the consultant, Mr. [audio cuts
out] [08:04:26], Steve Provo of Large Designs, in the plan, it talks
about the potential of the children’s charity all-inclusive
playground, that they’re working to be placed at Providence Park.
In other documents, it talked about the potential of it being at the
Milton Country Club.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
194
But I want to emphasize, nothing’s been decided [audio cuts out].
Those two sites are mentioned because they’re two parcels of land
that [audio cuts out] [08:04:57] has as potential. In consulting
with Mr. Provo and staff, candidly, I do not believe that
Providence Park – I’m speaking as staff – I don’t believe
Providence Park would be the best location for the Children’s
Charities playground, which certainly means we still would want
to – if they still want to give it to us, we’d like to put it somewhere.
But [audio cuts out] of what they are proposing is larger [audio
cuts out] than the scope that we have designed. But if you take a
look at the report where it talks about a playground, it talks about
using 13,000 square feet to put in a playground that would fit
typically in a 5,000 square foot.
The concept here is we’re looking – the envisionment the plan has
for the playground is something that is spread out and blends in
with nature, not cutting [audio cuts out] tearing down some trees.
We want to make it part of the actual flatter lands of the park
[audio cuts out] we can take advantage of the topography. And
from there, the whole idea here is mom and dad bring the kids to a
park. There’s a playground, and they say, hey, while we’re here,
let’s go for a walk and start to study nature. So, it becomes the
hook to get kids to come to the park and then to explore a whole
different part of a park, a nature park, is the primary focus.
With that said, I’d like to emphasize that this is a plan. This is a
master plan. It is not a purchase order. This doesn’t have any firm
commitments that the council would have to go to. It’s simply a
plan. From there, we’re gonna start to go to prioritize what steps to
take based upon priorities, guidance we received from you, as well
as funding availability. With that, if you have any questions, I
would be happy to answer them.
Joe Lockwood: Rick?
Rick Mohrig: Jim, just a question one [audio cuts out] had brought up to me
was, who lives on Providence Lake across from the park. And their
concern was how are we gonna enforce the no boating policy?
Because they’ve stated that they’ve seen kayaks and other things
chained to trees, different people using it, so. And this is from two
residents that have approached me on that with concerns.
Jim Cregge: Yes, I am familiar with that particular situation. When we first
opened up the park, we did put up signs that said no boating, no
swimming, catch and release fishing. And I have discovered that
not only the signs, but the sign posts have been stolen. So, in the
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
195
discussion I had this past weekend with Mr. Crokoff, we agreed
that’s something we have to get back up, and also perhaps put
them a little more prominent. Yes, that information is listed on the
large part of the signs, but perhaps we need to spell it out
especially at the parking lot and as we come down, and also at the
lake.
Steve Krokoff: We could also get the police officers involved with monitoring
that.
Rick Mohrig: Yeah. And you addressed the second thing, was the catch and
release process, so we don’t deplete the fish in the lake.
Jim Cregge No, the lake [audio cuts out] should not deplete the fish.
Laura Bentley: And I just want to suggest – appreciate all the incorporation of
ideas, the surveillance equipment, so that we can get whoever’s
stealing the signs. I noticed that the overnight camping would only
be allowed if there was a park ranger in that phase.
Jim Cregge Well, that would be the recommendation of the plan, yes.
Laura Bentley: Okay. So, I wanted to confirm that.
Steve Krokoff: And that down the road, you have nothing in the works for park
rangers.
Laura Bentley: Okay. And I had the same concern about the all-inclusive
playground. It’s a great thing, and I want to make sure we get it to
the right place.
Jim Cregge: Yes.
Laura Bentley: One of the concerns was at the stakeholder meetings, and there
were many of them, and they were all very well – notification went
out. It didn’t rate high for this park, an inclusive playground. So,
we don’t want to put something in this area that doesn’t – people
don’t want or might not need. So, I hope that as we go forward,
this is four years away, that we continue to look for the very best
match. And it might be here in four years. But that was the
feedback that I got as well.
Steve Krokoff: And at the end of the day, that’s your decision. It could just
happen. [Inaudible] [08:09:40] Even if it was a donated park, it
would still be ultimately your decision.
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
196
Jim Cregge: And if we were looking at a smaller park, which is what we’re
believing to be best, the idea is any playground that we build here,
if we’re really gonna follow the spirit of the city in what we’re
doing with Camp Joyful Souls and all the other efforts we make to
be inclusive, I realize that the playground I put in over at
Broadwell Pavilion, yes, it’s got the surface for someone in a
wheelchair, but there’s really nothing to do. So, I would just like to
start to drive forward that any more playgrounds we build, whether
it’s a large one that is a gift from Children’s Charities, or a smaller
one that’s [audio cuts out], makes sure that we have elements that
are inclusive for all. That’s what we’re looking to talk about here.
We want to increase the inclusivity. Any other questions?
Joe Lockwood: No. Do we want to – we’ve got some public comment, correct?
Sudie Gordon: I have two, yes.
Joe Lockwood: Do you want to read those?
Sudie Gordon: The first one comes from Francia Lindon, who was here and would
like this read in the record. I want to speak in favor of the
Providence Park master plan presented at the May 14th City
Council work session. The presentation listed a number of
concessions made to appease abutters and those concerned about
strangers’ backyards. Among them was a 30-foot minimum buffer
for any trails, relocation of the access to the Milton Trail System,
and a discussion of installing barrier type fencing.
As to disturbing a beautiful natural setting, the point of a public
park is to invite people of all abilities into the woods to be able to
focus on more nature in all its messy glory. Due to budgetary
constraints, the construction process is to be done in phases over
several years. I believe, therefore, that the plan will be fluid, and
meandering [audio cuts out] [08:11:43], taking shape over time.
To quote one city official, the initial effort will be focused on
stabilizing the site and building necessary facility parking and
restrooms. What I envision is a section of the Greenway east of
[audio cuts out] Point Parkway from behind Ethan Allen down to
Mansell Road. It has a number of stream crossings, a boardwalk
through wetlands, and trails threaded through woods with
minimum disturbance.
It is my observation from the proposed plan and from visiting the
area, these meadows or lawns already exist in the area in front of
the [audio cuts out] structure and in the quarry once it is drained.
No trees need to be cut. I see the park as being made whole, more
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
197
accessible, with expanded viewing areas, but with a lighter
approach. And ultimately, there are currently three children’s
playgrounds. None of them are handicap accessible. These children
represent a small but important segment of our population whose
needs are unmet. Given that the city is obliged to make the park
[audio cuts out] accessible, it is my hope that the city will not
scrap plans for a playground that can be utilized by children of all
abilities.
How wonderful it would be for all to be able to access to outdoors,
to afford delight in sunshine. Let’s not forget that Providence Park
was here before all the homes that now surround it. It has a history
of multiple uses. We are restoring some of the activities it was
once used for. And Francine’s address is 14810 East Bluff Road in
Milton.
And the final comment came with an accompanying affidavit from
Paul Schiell. And he writes, thank you for allowing me to address
you through this email. Providence Park master plan, it seems to
me, has been rushed through with little regard to compliance with
federal ADA legislation. Case in point, the lake [audio cuts out]
fishing and [audio cuts out] appears without a ramp for
wheelchair accessibility. Regarding the paved trail, not only will
this allow wheelchair use, but also stroller use for families – a clear
dual function beneficial to many.
I understand how some may desire to [audio cuts out] park
without paved trails to keep it in its natural beauty. I understand
also that the city is legally bound to maintain and uphold both the
letter and spirit of the Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990. I
trust council will preserve this ADA, and so welcome [audio cuts
out] Providence Park to all of our community, people with
disabilities included. Most sincerely, Paul F. Schiell, wheelchair
user and disability activist. And that’s all I have.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I’ll close the public hearing on that, then. All right. Any
more, Council? Joe? You raised your hand? All right. I’ll open it
up for a motion.
Laura Bentley: Mayor, I’d like to make a motion to adopt the Providence Park
master plan.
Rick Mohrig: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion for adoption from Councilmember Bentley
and a second from Councilmember Mohrig. Any discussion? I do
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018
a qwrwaeeedswdrsdffdrt6
www.gmrtranscription.com
198
want to thank you for being here so late. I’m sure you’re as tired as
we are.
Jim Cregge And he’s supposed to drive to Decatur.
Joe Lockwood: All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: All right. That passes unanimously. Thank you very much. All
right, Sudie, please sound the next item for Ken.
Sudie Gordon: This is consideration of a resolution to provide for a referendum on
a local homestead tax exemption, agenda item number 18-192, was
discussed at the June 11th work session. Mr. Ken [audio cuts out].
Ken Jarrard: Mr. Mayor, members of the Council, this item is a resolution
calling for a referendum with respect to a local homestead tax
exemption that was signed into law by [audio cuts out] [08:15:48]
on May 8, 2018. The resolution says very succinctly that if passed
by the voters of Milton, would provide for a new homestead
exemption from the city of Milton [audio cuts out] lowering taxes
for municipal purposes in an amount equal to the amount by which
the current year’s assessed value of a homestead exceeds the
adjusted base year assessed value of such a homestead. The local
act requires that we call this referendum so this resolution is
respectfully, I think, mandatory for us to set this up.
Joe Lockwood: All right. Okay.
Ken: I just need a motion and a second the adopt the resolution.
Joe Lockwood: I’ll open it up for a motion.
Laura Bentley: Mayor, I’d like to make a motion to approve the resolution to
provide a referendum on a local homestead exemption.
Joe Longoria: Second.
Joe Lockwood: Okay. I’ve got a motion for approval by Councilmember Bentley,
seconded by Councilmember Longoria. All in favor, please say
aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: That’s unanimous. I’m not gonna report on anything. Neither is
1
Milton City Council Meeting June 18, 2018 199
Council. No executive session. That concludes our meeting. Can I
have a motion to adjourn?
Rick Mohrig: Motion to adjourn.
Peyton Jamison: Second.
Joe Lockwood: I have a motion and a second. All in favor, please say aye.
Group: Aye.
Joe Lockwood: That's unanimous.
[End of Audio]
Duration: 497 minutes
Date Approved: June 17, 2019
�GL
Sudie AM Gordon, City Flerk Joe Lock d, Mayor
www._qmrtranscription.com