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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes - PC - 04-24-2007City of Milton Planning Commission Regular Meeting April 24,2007,7:00 PM Commission Members Present: Curtis Mills, Bob Moheb, Paul Moore, Cary Schlenke, George Ragsdale, Fred Edwards, Paul Hackman Meeting LeaderlCity StaE Robyn MacDonaZd, Planner Mike TulIer, Assistant Manager-Planning & Zoning Chair Paul Moore stated that in lieu of invocation, observation of moment of silence for Virginia Tech tragedy. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE MEETING CALLED TO ORDER Chair Paul Moore stated that the agenda was a Iittfe difierent tonight, as there are no applications to hear, but he was deIighted that everyone was present to discuss the business they do have at hand. There are some administrative things to .end to prior inviting the community to speak and then called the meeting to order. He stated they are a seven member commission appointed by the City of Milton Mayor and City Council created for the purpose of holding public hearings and make recommendations on rezonings, use permits, current variance applications, comprehensive land use pIan and plan maps and other related plans and amendmerrts to the zoning ordinance. Chair Paul Moore then introduced Commission Members. Chair Paul Moore advised the public speaks that each person that spoke had to complete a public comment card before speaking and leave it with a staffmember of the Community Development Department. He stated that all speakers should identi@ themselves by name, address and organization, if applicable before beginning their presentation. He further stated that a demonstration of any sort within the chambers were prohibited, so to refrain from any applause, dialog with the person speaker first and to turn off all cell phones or place them on silent. All remarks will be addressed by the Planning Commission and please show the same respect to the person speaking as you would respect to receive yourself. Chair Paul Moore said that the first matter he would like to call to business is to amend the Bylaws of the Planning Commission. The Commission concluded based on their recent work session that they are actually in need of a bit more work prior to the amendment of the Bylaws so at this time wanted to entertain a motion to move the Bylaws to the next work session and then adopted at the next public meeting. Seconded by Commission Member Cary Schlenke. Vote was called -unanimous, motion carried. "hair Paul Moore called the next order of business which was the acloption of the minutes from the March 19, 2007 SpeciaI CalIed Planning Commission Meeting. Page 1 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, .April 24,2007 Motion to approve made by Paul Hackman and seconded by Fred Edwards. Vote was called -unanimous, motion carried and minutes were approved. Chair Paul Moore called the next order of brrsiness which was the adoption of the minutes from the March 22, 2007 ReguIar Planning Commission Meeting. Motion to approve made by Bob Moheb and seconded by Cary Schlenke. Vote was called -unanimous, motion carried and minutes were approved. Chair Paul Moore stated that one of the Commission Members, Fred Edwards, wanted to read something into the record. Commission Member Fred Edwards said he wanted the Staff to brief them on the attorney who has been representing the City of Milton regarding billboards. He said that from the last City Council meeting, it seemed to him that they were receiving counsel on ordinances they the Commission passed or defeated that are in front of you. He said that if this was true, he felt that the Planning Commission should be entitled to that counsel before this Commission has to pass a defeated ordinance. Chair Paul Moore asked if he was talking about the City Attorney or the lady -Laurel Henderson? Staff Michael TulIer said that Laurel Henderson has been helping the city out with guidance based on the City of Fayetteville's city ordinance laws that were upheld by the state and has been giving us guidance as to what type of ~rdinancewould protect the City of Milton from the encouragement of billboards in the firture. She did recommend many things and he believed there was some literature around that may have referenced her name in the documentation. Chair Paul Moore asked if the assessment of the sign ordinance took place after the voting of the Planning Commission. Staff Robyn MacDonald said yes it did. Chair Paul Moore said he believed that the position Commission Member Fred Edwards was taking tonight and he would too, is that they invested about 5 and a half hours as a Planning Commission in the course of their meeting prior to that interpretation of the ordinance by the outside attorney and this was a significant investment of time away from their families as part of their commitment to the city and the things represented in the course of that work that evening were things they felt represented the voice of the community and they were acting in accordance with what those voices of our neighbors and business associates and other community acquaintances would have asked them to represent them and they thought that it was disrespectful of this Commission's work to have that kind of significant change done after their work had been completed and then City Council took that as obviously valuable input fiom this attorney. He said he certainly respected that, but it really diminished the value and the time invested on the part of this Commission, so he would just ask the benefit of that kind of guidance to an ordinance prior to their interpretation of going forward as well. Chair Paul Moore asked if there were any other comments. Commission Member Bob Moheb said his concern was for legal reasons. It was his understanding previously that whatever went before the Council would have to come before them, but after a conversation with Mark Scott asking him again for legal reasons, did this need to come back to the Planning Commission after being changed by someone other than the Council and he stated it did not from a legal standpoint. He felt the same way, in that they did put a lot of time into this and he would have appreciated it coming back before them, but from another standpoint, as a city, they reaIly Page 2 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 ~eededto get something passed into law for legal reasons with the billboards and everything else, so this is why he really did not mind because he knew they had to get something in. Commission Member Curtis Mills said he was sorry to plead ignorance here, but he was not aware of what they were referring to. He asked if the Commission's recommendations were modified. He said he was not aware of this. Chair Paul Moore advised that probably about 90% of the Commission's recommendations were changed at the last City Council meeting. He stated that this Commission had taken some big and bold steps forward to place some tighter restrictions on the sign ordinance and n majority of those were overturned by the City Council taking it back to larger signs than what they said was appropriate. Commission Member Curtis Mills asked if this was before it went to City Council. Chair Paul Moore said no, that City Council had taken recommendation from an outside attorney resource during the course of their Thursday night City Council meeting -that is when the action was taken. He said that they are entitled to that --we are a Commission of recommendation to City Council and they are entitled to do that. Commission Member Curtis Mills said so they accepted 10% of our recommendation? Chair Paul Moore said approximately. Chair Paul Moore asked if there were any other questions. Commission Member George RagsdaIe said he thought the distinction he made was important, in that the Commission is ;ubject to whatever they recommend being turned over by the City Council -even 100% if they want, but unfortunately, he was not at the meeting on Thursday night and what concerns him more is that he specificaIly asked about this issue at the meeting they had back on the 19th of March and was told that there was none. He stated that his bothered him more than anything else. To everybody else's point, they are here trying to do a job and if they are deprived of information that is relevant to the decisions they are being asked to recommend, we cannot do this job. Commission Member Bob Moheb said just so everyone knows, it was his understanding that any changes that Laurel Henderson did make to tothe sign ordinance were for Ithe reason, in her opinion, defending the Commission in any cases that might come forward --she thought might be a little too strict and the only changes she did make were what she thought may get the sign ordinance turned over in the future. Chair Paul Moore said he believed in no way was it intended to disrespect the guidance and recommendations from the Planning Commission, but there was a sense of urgency to make sure that a good plan was developed knowing that they are being faced with potential lawsuits in the future to develop a good ordinance to protect us. He said that there were changes with respect to the size of small signs --informational signs in front yards --they went from 4 square feet up to 12 square feet, but those are actuaIly three 2 x 2 square foot signs that could go in which was a change, and the recommendations for the large freestanding signs really came from Cherokee County and that was nothing that was really decided upon in the early stages. He said they probably heard counsel Mark Scott mention that he recommended 15 ft. as the height minimum for these freestanding stands at 120 square feet and they went down to 12 as the maximum height, so there was quite a bit of back and forth, but he was not aware of Fegal counsel until right before the session also. Commission Member Curtis Mills asked who was the attorney representing and is it being represented that since this Commission largely approved what city staff recommended, which supposedly came from a consensus of the City Council, that 90% of what staff recommended would have been legally overfumed? He said that this made no sense. Page 3 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 :ommission Member Bob Moheb said that he did not think any of the things they voted on were changed by Laurel Henderson, who, to his understanding, is the attorney who will be defending this in the billboard lawsuits. From what he saw, she did not change anything they had ruled on, but he believes that Commissioner Edwards was trying to see was he would have appreciated the sign ordinance coming back to them since they did invest 5 and a half hours in it and they would have liked to have been notified ofthose changes. Commission Member Curtis Mills asked if Laurel Henderson represented the city or adjunct to Mark Scott. Chair Paul Moore said, yes, he believed she was volunteering her services to help the Commission with the situation. Commissioner George Ragsdale said that he believed she is a GMA attorney and is representing the city. Chair Paul Moore said for clarification, the primary recommendations she is making, although there is interpretation throughout the ordinance they worked on --her primary role was to interpret the risks that the Commission was or not putting themselves at with regard to billboards in particular. There were other recommendations made throughout the ordinance which a number of the City Council members referred to, but he does not how if was the sole guidance that they took when making their decisions during the course of their discussions that evening, but he thinks it was in a couple of instances a profound measure for what they did rule on ultimately, which was to soften the significance of the suggestions that the Planning Commission harf recommended. Commission Member Curtis Mills said that the Commission said that this discussion was over and that they could not un- ring that bell and he said he concurred with the other Commissioners and stated in the fuhre, they would like to see whatever changes were made before they go to Council --this is common sense. Zommission Member George RagsdaIe said his last point is that he is not so concerned with it not coming back to them. He said to him that is not the issue. l3e issue is that they made a vey good faith effort in the beginning to make sure that they understood what they were looking at. They were not looking at a clean ordinance, but an ordinance that had been significantly modified, they were told that it had been reviewed by outside counsel, they were told that the changes that they were looking at represented the consensus of the counsel --neither of which as it turns out were true and he said he cannot speak for anybody else, but he knows that his thinking about his comments on that ordinance were influenced by all of these things and had that been a clean ordinance, he believes the outcome would have been compIetely different from the seven of them. Chair Paul Moore asked if there were any other dosing remarks. There being none, closing comments were closed among the Commission and they moved to the next agenda item which was Ciltizen Input for the CrabappIe Crossroads Overlay District and State Route 9 Overlay District. Chair Paul Moore said that there were n couple of proceduraI things they would like to introduce to the community as to how they were going to manage the information. Be asked for a show of hands of the people that were interested in speaking this evening. Commission Member George Ragsdale said it might be better to ask how many people were there to speak on one versus another. Chair Paul Moore said that they were welcome to aIso speak on both topics. Asked who wished to speak regarding the Highway 9 Overlay --said great, there were an equal number. Ef anyone wishes to speak on any topic, please feel free to move forward to the speaker and fill out a comment card. Chair Paul Moore said in their last discussion during their work session to limit the public comment per overlay to 2 minutes, so in light of the fact that there are just a hand full of people who are looking forward to speaking, he would like Page 4 of 22 Planbing Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 .o extend the discussion to maybe 3 minutes. At the end of the interrupted 3 minutes, there may be questions of you or of staff, but they do appreciate any comment they may have this evening. Chair Paul Moore said prior to any public comment, he would Iike for the members present from the Design Review Board to come forward and make any comments they may have into the record and that they value any input the Design Review Board will bring to the community. He stated that it is their vision and oversight of the overlays and the master plans that help actually produce the end results which are the aesthetics they are looking for to create the city. So at that point, he invited them to come forward and make comments into the minutes. Design Review Board Member Buck Bell. He stated he was the Chair of the Design Review Board and he would like to instill in the Commission and to whomever else would like to listen to what he was going to say, is that the overlays are a very strong and powerful instruments. They are written very well and from a guidance standpoint they are always left up to interpretation and he believes that the clearer they can make the interpretation without overly burdening that interpretation, he believed the better produce they will get. He said as he read through the Crabapple Overlay or the Highway 9 Overlay, he saw a lot of things they could put in there that would make you understand it better. He said when they wrote the overlay and asked for specific core examples so when he said they are looking for a certain roof type or some type of screening enclosures, there would be actual examples of it. A picture is worth a thousand words. Something like this can be added to the overlays and that would help it, along with the housekeeping he thinks needs to occur to make the interpretation a little bit more pertinent. He said at this point after the NW Fulton Overlay has been enacted since 1999, Crabapple since 2003 and Highway 9 shortly thereafter, he would like to invite the Planning Commission to basically get some type of public forum together to discuss the deveIopment that has occurred since then to see what their interpretation of that purpose is. He said he said he is a person that focuses more on Crabapple than Highway 9 himself, he tends to see that a lot of bad has happened there. It has nothing to do with the overlay and nothing to do with the plan or a lot of things, but then again, there is one side of him that says it is always darkest before the dawn --the plan needs to R finished and then see what they have before criticizing it. It said he believed the overlay is a very powerful instrument and we!l written, but it is time to do some housekeeping, sharpen it and make it easier for interpretation, not only for developers but for staff and to do that he said they just need to think through some of the obvious weaknesses of it. Chair Paul Moore said that for the benefit of the community, one of the things that they need to make sure is that they recognize the difference between the work that was approved by Fulton County prior to the City of Milton being created and by some of those eleventh hour decisions there are some things that were approved that he thinks today by measure of the new City of Milton may be a bigger step or a little out of line with the keeping of where he believed they are trying to go as a city and under their own governments. In said in trying to take responsibility for how they are going to go forward it is important to add this input to the overlay from a11 of the community as best as they can achieve that. He said he believed this is the first of what may be the first of invitations hrn a number of different bodies throughout the official capacities of the new members of Milton whether it is by City Council, DRB, information committees are going to be created for the benefit of gathering more input. He said that as a planning commission they are invited to be a part of the comprehensive use plan --there is a new committee being created for that and there is an opportunity for the citizens to be a member of that as well. He said as he looks forward to a number of meetings to take place that will provide for community input. He said another key point to the intended plan, at Ieast it was a personal agenda of his, is recognizing the value of what the Crabapple master plan has provided and the Birmingham master plan. Recognizing that these plans are not binding by law. He said they are policy and there are things that can be interpreted and ovemled because they are policies. He said it is his objective to as best they can, move forward with the adoption of or to convert the master plans at some point to ordinances and they have to rewritten accordingly with the right kind of language. Commission Member George Ragsdale said that Buck Bell indicated that what is there now may not be what he personally expected, and since he was involved in the design and development of the overlay, what is it that could be improved if they were to start over --what could be improved to make what is there more closely resemble what he expected it to be. What is missing or wrong? Page 5 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24.2007 Speaker Buck Bell (DRB) said that the overlay contains all the elements that should have been followed. There is intent, there is purpose, guidelines, visions, motives, and it all comes down unfortunately that vision is defined by the eye of the implementer. He said they can write the strongest policy as possible, but when it comes down to those who are responsible for ultimately interpreting it he would say woo those that can make the changes and then for those people to not entitled themselves to understand the complete deal. He said he for as much time as he has spent in this area and with the overlays and with Crabapple's plan and watching Birmingham nurse theirs and everything else, you get an inherent sense of total understanding about it. He said while he wants to fault somebody for what has happened there and for the same degree he cannet expect someone at Fulton County that was not briefed or given the time or education or did not ask for help to be totally responsible for it. He said at the same time, there were enough people down there that knew exactly what the vision was and had plenty of us hounding them about what the vision was and they just refused to listen, so in talking to the Staff, Robyn, Tom and everybody here, he believes that the most important thing to understand maybe from people like them and other people in the community that when they ernail or call or want to meet or there is a certain bug under their rug that they want to talk about, that they are not here to hassle the community, but to help. They may see things that may not be seen by anyone else. So yes it is there George, it is just again --little details all add up to the big picture. Commission Member Bob Moheb asked Buck Bell that personally, he could not put his finger on it, but in his opinion, he believed there is something completely wrong with wht is going on in Crabapple and his opinion is that it is something to do with the aesthetics of the buildings. He said if he thought there was one real thing that was going on with the aesthetics of the buildings, what would you say that was? Speaker Buck Bell (DRB) said he did not believe he could pick just one for him, but he said he would agree with him in that Crabapple's plan was written to have diversity of product. That was a diversiq of land size, a diversity of building and architectural styles of scale, position and placement. He said if your look at the existing older structures in Crabapple, + you will notice that there is no rhyme or reason to their formation or their size. He said there was one congruent factor through it all and that is that they were all placed naturally on the land, they all feel human in scale and they all have their own design and aesthetic appearance that was defined not by an overlay but by the time and the evolution of time. He said he believed what is being seen in Crabapple is difficult and he is not going to talk about the raising of the land and how clean cut it is, which is simple something that sets a certain precedent, but the one thing that he thinks one of the problems is the developers are not sympathetic nor controlled to have proportion bemeen buildings where you can have a smaller building next to a larger building. They all ended up being all the same size, all jam-packed in the small lets. The road formula for Crabapple he did not believe was followed. He stated he believed it was followed to perpetuate density and it also gives you the sense of tightness. He said some of the buildings in his opinion exceed the --they say they meet the eve requirement of being no greater than 30 feet, but he said he believes the appearance is much greater than 30 feet. He said they did studied proportion and human scale into the placement of architecture and all and what happened in Crabapple is kind of a race on the market -everybody wanted to get the biggest in the most in the least soonest. He further stated that what is happening in Crabapple has a very direct relationship to the planning and that was to have the intensity closer to the intersection and then to become Iarger and then smaller so that when it met the existing developments that it did not ramble on and stall, but instead, it never transitioned in size. Commission Member Curtis Mills said that Buck Bell cIosed his statement with strengths and weaknesses, but asked him if he was saying that enforcement is as big of an issue as maybe what is in or not in the plan, that is not right? Speaker Buck Bell (DRB) said he could probably key it in to his conversation beforehand about making recommendations and then recommendations not being followed or heard or whatever and this interrupted it. He said he knows that when they sat down with the developer and at that point they were the Crabapple Coalition, they were handed the developers the moment that staff was done with their initial plan and it was up to them to gather the community which they always had a very dificuIt time doing, they looked at the plans --there were four of them that primarily wrote the plan and honored the plan and got the plan passed and implemented it, and they would work with the developers and make sure that everything in the overlay was met. He said he had the strength to do that because he used to interpret it from being on the Design Page 6 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 14,2007 Review Board back then so he knew it. He said they would work it all up with the developers and they would stand before you guys, the commissioners then, hold up the plan and say, this is what we want, these are pictures of what we are going to build, we have the complete community's agreement on this, they passed it, and then they had nothing else to do with it. It would go before staff, plan review and permitting and some people down in Fulton County that were administratively able to overrule judgment and things happened like detention ponds that were hidden in the back came forward to the streets --that land that was tilted away from sewer all of a sudden was allowed to tilt to sewer, which allowed density to show up that was never supposed to be there, so there was a lot of things that happened --he was going to say behind closed doors -because he was not there, that allowed things to happened. Then once they got their LDP and they got their permits, mote and more things changed. He said so again, a lot of things changed and strengths and weaknesses comes down to everybody working together and believing that the people that wrote this ordinance and understand it best, may need to help people understand what is going on and then stand firm as far as enforcement, but it is not enforcement from violation, it is violation from interpretation of the plan. Commission Member Curtis Mills said that is what he thought he was saying. So he asked Mr. Bell if he was going to summarize the top 3 strengths and top 3 weaknesses, what he might say. Speaker Buck Bell (DM)said he did ~otwant to answer that because there are many strengths and weaknesses in all and if he were to sit down for 30 minutes at a computer, he could emaiI him and send them the top items. Board Member Curtis Mills said they are trying to gather intelligence and get an understanding of cornmunily issues. He said that Mr. Bell has a large history pool of knowledge and he stated he would be interested in seeing what he had to say. Speaker Buck Bell (DM)stated the Crabapple Coalition group did not exist anymore, but felt there were probably some old members of that group that wouId love to come forward and be in a workshop and offer that time to the PC and Council. He said the people that were involved in the DRB would like to be there as weII. Maybe to arrive at some real things to help get the dream done. Commission Member Fred Edwards stated he was fairly new to this process and the history here, but he wanted to hear some about the road configuration that Mr. Bell talked about near Crabapple Comer. He said he drives through it and hears about the traffic in this area. He wondered what the dream there that he understood was and what did or did not happen. Speaker Buck Bell (Dm)said he would be happy to shed some information on that. He stated that Crabapple's inner- connective roadway system in his opinion is something that time will take to do --and something that time has taken to destroy and there are other issues that have nothing to do with Crabapple, but impact Crabapple. He said that Crabapple is just the point of intensity. He stated that everyone comes to him and says what is your going to do about the traffic in Crabapple, and he says it is cross-county traffic that is killing us. He said he goes in and out of Crabapple sometimes 15- 20 times a day and it never takes him longer than 5 minutes to get from any point outside of Crabapple, through Crabapple into Crabapple. He said that the problem in Crabapple is keeping the people from getting to Crabapple and plugging the intersection. The solutions do not exist in Crabapple past the point of the inner-connective roadways that were concepted to get us, the citizens, alternate routes through Crabapple. He said that where those inner-connective roads failed in his opinion is that once again, there were three types of road systems designated in the plan and these were all sub-arterial routes that had different sizes based on where they went, so if you had roads that went into an internal subdivision and did not have an outlet, they might not be as large as those that had outlets, and everyone of these developments was supposed to have had main routes that navigated these subdivisions --none were supposed to go through parking lots. They were all supposed to be different lifts, different characters with sidewalks or swales and then what the pathing was is that all of the roads kind of became one size and they went with the developers and they are so narrow that if in an alley-access product that they built for themselves, they cannot go through these alIeys --he can barely understand how they pull cars into these garages. He said if he parks on the street to visit someone who lives there, he reduces the roadway to a one lane road. There was supposed to have been on-street parallel parking and there is not --so what wound up happening is that Page 7 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 the product that got approved did not take into consideration the accessibility and feasibility of people using these roads. He said he got cut through and wobble around in and out and it is pretty quick right now, but is not how it was intended to be, so he believes the roadways will work once they are all built. He said the tough part is going to be on the other side of Birmingham -the more historic side of Crabapple exists. He believes if everyone is patient we will see some relief, but the real problem lies in stopping the cross-county traffic in getting to Crabapple in his opinion. By cross-county traff~che said he is referring to Crabapple Road, 372 -Cherokee, Forsyth and Cobb all coming to Alpharetta to work and going home at a time when it is impacted with everyone going to work. If you go through this area at 11:00 a.m. in the mornings, there is no traffic, so if all the traffic which is coming across the county borders to go to work elsewhere and in night, they turn to come back. Commission Member Bob Moheb asked if he believed if they wait a bit this problem will be resolved. Buck Bell (DM) said he did not think they need to wait. He said he did not want to tell them what to do, but he believed what needed to be done is to study what other routes, whether its Arnold Mill, whether its Rucker Road, whether there is some new road like Providence, that can be expanded. The intersections certainly need to be looked at to allow people to come through these 4-way intersections a little quicker -every road out there. He said we all drive them. The intersection of Providence and Birmingham. He said they back up all the way from Summitt Hill School all the way into that intersection now and that is as bad as Crabapple. Maybe not quite as bad because it is still a 4-way, but it is still bad. Chair Paul Moore asked Buck Bell about cross-county traffic. He said you are primarily talking about the rush-hour traffic times. He believed the business owners in Crabapple wouId take exception to them creating a plan that regardless of the hour of the day traffic was sent elsewhere. It should then be a plan that accommodates the heavy boundaries of what would be considered rush hour, but also to accommodate the business traffic that would still be attractive to the Crabapple business owners. Buck Bell (Dm)said that Crabapple was concepted to be designed as a destination comers. People coming to AIpharetta going to work or going home, but not stopping in Crabapple. Crabapple was designed to serve those who came into that area during the day whether it was local business or local families or people who were at home and it was meant to be an area that was to serve the people that lived there and primarily the evening and the weekends, so he would say that if they took all the cross-county traffic out of Crabapple, he believed the business would probably pick up because more local people would probably drive to Crabapple to attend and patronize those businesses. He said he has people teIling him they do not go into Crabapple during those periods because they do not want to deal with the traffic, so he believes the business owners would be happy with the solution more so than feeling they have been denied exposure to advertising. Chair Paul Moore told the audience that he realized he had been remiss in actually opening the floor to public comment in genera1 prior to address these two overlays. He asked if there was anyone who might have public comment other than to address these nvo overlays who would like to speak at this time. Public Speaker Lisa Canley, 14680 Freemanville Road said she said she was new property owner and resident of the City of Milton. She said her comment was on the new proposed high school on FreernanviIle Road. She said as a Freemanville Road property owner and resident, she would like to state her complete opposition to FuIton County Board of Education as far as the Iocation for the new high school. She stated the location would be detrimental to toll residents of the City of Milton by decreasing property values and increasing traffic and over-burdening the roads, not to mention the environmental impact it will have on our new city and the entire area. She feels that this is a very poor choice by the Board of Education for the location of the new school based on demographics. It is aImost exactly 2.5 miles down the road from the same exact road from the existing Milton High School and she firmly believes an alternative site needs to be pursued to protect and preserve the city. Chair Paul Moore asked for additional public comment. Page 8 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 Public Speaker Carol Lane, 14890 Eastbrook Road. She said that the general comment she is going to make has to deal with the probIems that they are also addressing, traffic, why building another school and because we are building more stuff, the people that live there have to have a place to go to school, so her concern is that they do not write a letter to Fulton County from the City of Milton saying that they support extending sewers to the property that they are requesting. She said it will send a very negative precedent and that is not what we are trying to do in our city to have more density. We want to make it at least one acre, one house per acre. Board Member Bob Moheb said it was his understanding that the reason the citizens wanted to implement this septic only area was due to the fact that they could not get Fulton County to support them in their vision and it just seemed Iike to him personally and he said that a lot of you guys have been wanting the City of Milton a lot longer than he had --and with them being the City of Milton now, the problem now is really sewer. He stated if they zone their properties correctly through the Comp Plan and through everything else they do, would the problem be really sewer? He said if they are the ones that are putting everything into effect and they are the ones who look at everything before the Board goes to Council and he wanted to get some other opinions on this. Speaker Carol Lane said that the reason why the City of Milton Iooks the way it looks today is because of the community involvement, the Birmingham Hopewell Alliance and people going downtown to Fulton County meetings and representing opposition and that has been a work in progress for 10-12 years. She said at the Birmingham Crossroads, probably 10 years ago, she took her children down to the Roswell Annex to oppose a Kroger on one comer and a Publix on the other and she stated if we go to sewer it will not look like it does now, it will look like Johns Creek and that is if it happens. She said that we see it in Crabapple and look at the density in Crabapple now and that is not the vision that she has and a lot of her neighbors have, so when you talk about sewer, she would like for people who own property like the man who said he represents Target and said he owned 55 acres on Taylor Road, she said let's start with those properties. Put it in their backyards and then she believes they would understand. She said this is so unique and they have the opportunity to do this and it would be fabulous and everybody would praise you. Tt is a hard process, but if we stick to it you would be really amazed how proud you would h. Commission Member Bob Moheb said he is a builder and a developer himself and he knows about this and does believe that the City of Milton needs to be on one acre plus. He said he does not understand from his background that if they have one acre lots with septic or one acre lots with sewer --he does not see the difference personally, but again, and said you guys have probably been doing this a lot longer than he has and so he would like to understand exactly where this is coming from and if they are still keeping houses at a minimum of one acre --he would like to under it a little further. Speaker Buck Bell (DRB) said he would like to speak a little and with a bit of passion and he did not want to offend anyone and it was not directed at them personally, but he stated he has been at this for 15 years and like Carol had seen, they have gone down to numerous commissioner meetings and have argued through this thing, but the one instrument that has stood firm through this entire time which was actually in place before he was even involved, was Commissioner Fulton? resolution to not allow inner-basin transfer. It is that one single resolution which adds policy and adds a precedent to any document that maintains our area and nothing short of that. He said he would fully disagree and object to any belief that any action that this Board or that Council would take to designate on the Comprehensive Land Use Plan and what a limit would be once sewer would serve this area and suddenly you couId not enforce it in a court of land --it would be constantly jeopardized and certainly every intersection and every intersection and every throughway beginning with Birmingham and Providence Road which was withheId for this exact type of use would be compromised seriously beyond any ability for anybody to stop once it started burning. He said he sat in a meeting with Commissioner Fulton years ago and Terry Herr and he wrote the very first initiative to this area that brought this whole recognition to Commissioner Fulton" mind. It was called the rural roadside initiative and it has certain things and certain appearance and certain value so we had to protect and maintain who we were. He said Commissioner Fulton looked at me and said if we do not do something to allow development to come in here this property will be worth nothing. So the property here is not worth nothing, it is worth quite a bit and it just goes to show you that the most areas that have the Iittle bit to offer the most people become the most precious and the most valuable. He said what they have here is this. He said we can never Page 9 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 become a sewer area. Crabapple has aIways had the sewer it has had, it has just had to wait for development, but the rest of Northwest Fulton could never have sewer and gravel roads can never be paved, because those are the two instruments that we have that protect us greater and deeper than anything else and without that the overlays and everything else we do are worthless. Me said he supports everyone else in the room that would support that --no sewer guys. Speaker Carol Lane said that is why writing this letter that is proposed to give to City Council on Thursday to give approval for Fulton County to extend the sewer to these areas that say need it or were left out or whatever --they do not need it --we do not need to do this. Fulton County had the opportunity to do it and that sets a very negative precedence for the City of Milton. Again, she said we are unique because of the density here and their property values will drop if they bring sewer in because she does not want to live for there are so many houses. She said that she understands the land is valuable and she understands the homeowners that have a lot of land, but she said somehow as a city we need to work out a way that people can hold on to their land. There are Georgia Land Trusts and things they can look into so we do not have to succumb to this. She said if everyone can please fight it or try to hold back and come up with some ideas of how to keep this valuable land sa it will always be valuable and people will want to move here. Speaker Terry Herr @RBI said he resides at 1 10 Champions Club Court in Milton. He said he was past Chairman of the Design Review Board for FuIton County, so as Buck has said, he and 1 started on this quest 10 or 11 years ago relative to trying to shape or keep the shape of Northwest Fulton intact. He said that sewers play a very important role and a very unimportant role in the overall look of what we have currently in Fulton County and especially the Northwest Fulton area. He said that septic systems naturally shape the density of the area that they are placed in. There are the fields themselves that are required, the reserve areas that are required for the septic systems that dictate the amount of building that you can put on a piece of property --acres --they equate to the number of square feet of building area that you can put on it, regardless of the zoning ordinance that would set up minimum lots and maximum lot square footages. It affects the overall look and feel of the environment. He said you cannot put septic fields in the area were it does not perk, so to go to ;ewers in the Northwest area will drasticaIly change the look that they currently have because you can still have one acre lots, but they are going to be much more densely packed and much more heavily developed, so it drastically affects the vision that Northwest FuIton should set. Commission Member Bob Moheb said he just wants to be clear and understand. So the reason we would say that a lot of people are against sewers is because we are worried about what could happen in the future whether it be through this commission or the council, because we are worried that no matter what the zoning is, in the future there is a possibility of more dense areas, correct? Speaker Buck Bell (DRB) said that he believes they have heard from the community that by prohibiting sewer historicaIly, that has been one of the sole safeguards that has created the look that we now have today -15-20 years today from being down the road from where they started so he believes this is the same protection they are looking forward to in making sure that 15-20 years from now it has some semblance of what we know today. Chair Paul Moore called for additional public comment. Speaker Robert Gibson. He stated he resided on Copper Creek Circle in the Crooked Creek Subdivision. He thanked the Commission for the opportunity to speak tonight. He said he is not used to this type of treatment. He stated he moved here from Louisiana and he said you all know the politics there. Closed door meetings, backroom, meet at the bar, meet in the back, so he said that he and his neighbors are very appreciative of this meeting tonight and the spirit of openness that is being put forth. He said he would like to encourage that they continue in this manner and that all meetings seek public input --not in a rush to judgment, just discuss things, and seek input from community groups. He said there is a lot of talent out there and people who are willing and very able to help out. He said that you folks have a tough job and he knows what they are going through. He said that on behalf of the residents of Crooked Creek, they would like to offer help to the Commission and told them to please feel free to caIl on them and please contact them and they would be very pleased to do whatever they can. He said he would like to know about an article that was in the paper today --you may or Page 10 of 22 Planning Commission Reguiar Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 nay not have seen it regarding one of the Sandy Springs Commissioners who was expressing some dismay at the signs and balloons and everything else that is going on down there and expressing concern that they are going backwards. They had hired this outsourcing company to nm the city and apparentIy the number of people who are assigned to do different things as far as enforcement is concerned, are being observed as going to the City of Milton to do similar things where the City of Johns Creek did similar things. He said that the response from the oultsourcer indicated that it is not the number of peopIe that we have doing it, but the quality of the work we do and that they were meeting the contract. He said he wanted to know how you know you are meeting the contract. He said that his question is how do we as the City of Milton measure success as far as enforcement of our ordinances is concerned? Is it the number of traffic tickets that are written? Is it the number of gallons of water that se save? He said he would like to know just as a matter of course and he knows they have the answer. Chair Paul Moore asked if anyone would like to address Mr. Gibson's comments. Commission Member George Ragsdale said that one of the diffkrences between Sandy Springs, Johns Creek and Milton is that Sandy Springs is a year ahead of us with respect to their contract and with the same outsourcer for all three. He said that Sandy Springs when they started their contract as with Milton and Johns Creed, there are no performance measures in the contract. One of the tasks for the City Council and the outsourcer during the first 12 months of the contract is to develop those criteria that are going to make it a success and he said he is sure that City Council will welcome as much community input as they can get to define what those measures should be. He said that during the first year of the contract that is one of the tasks that they are supposed to be about so technically there are none per se right now. Commission Member Bob Moheb said that just so you know, it was his understanding that Staff does have a hotline so if someone thought that for example the sign ordinance or code or anything like that was being broken, they do have ability as citizens to call into Staff and let them how about it. At the same from what he has seen personally with working with the different people on Staff for the City of Milton. They seem a lot better than Sandy Springs. He said he has worked with a few people in Sandy Springs also and he can see why people would say that, but at the same time he thinks that a lot of the people that were working for Sandy Springs before through the companies that the city had hired have come over to the City of Milton because they like what the City of Milton has to offer and his understanding was that Milton's City Manager was one of those people who used to work for Sandy Springs and came to the City of Milton because he liked what we have to offer a lot better than they did. He said he believed the main thing is that people like you and everyone else that have spoken come to out meetings, come to the Council meetings and let us know what you think, so he appreciates the input. Chair Paul Moore asked Staff Robyn MacDonald ifthere was a contact number yet for the hotline. Robyn MacDonald said she did not know if there was an allocated number, but she said she knew if they called in on the main number, 678-242-2500 that there is a 24-hour operator and that all messages are forwarded to Angie and then she forwards them to the appropriate department when they get in. They will ask people if it is an emergency like a road issue, a safety issue, they want to know and then the appropriate peopIe if it is an emergency will be contacted to deal with those issues so it just depends on what type of issue it is as to when it will be addressed. Chair Paul Moore said and ernails can be sent to info@cityofaniltonga.us. Chair Paul Moore asked if there was any other pubIic comment. There being none, public comment was closed. Commission Member Cary Schlenke wanted to comment on the Milton News Letter that came out recently. There was an article on the front and they were over on the desk, but the public input on the Comprehensive Plan there is going to be an April 30th Tow Hall Meeting where you can get more information about what is going to be coming forward on the Comprehensive Plan. Page 11 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 21,2007 3hair Paul Moore said at this time he would like to open the floor. Speaker Mr. Gibson asked if there is a rnstiling list. Staff Robyn MacDonald said that if you would like an electronic version conld be sent via email. Chair Paul Moore said he receives the Milton News Letter on his email at home. He was on the city's website and by going there you can actually request that subscription electronically. If you go to the site on the left-hand side you can click to sign up on the ernail list. It is a new publication. Chair Paul Moore caIled the next order of business on the ofiicial agenda which is the discussion of the Crabapple Crossrods Overlay and called for public comment at that time. Asked that public restrict their comments to 3 minutes. Speaker Carol Lane said she appreciates what Buck Bell has shared with us about the Crabapple plan and she said she felt nobody ever envisioned that it would end up the way that it has. She said she worries about the future development and how did it get from a plan to what it is now. If it is because you need to go to every zoning meeting and you have the buiIder and you have the opposition and you just need to make sure that things are going smoothly --this is something important to look into. How did Crabapple get that way. You can blame FvIton County, but their residents in Crabapple, what could they have done to stop it and she thought this would be very important to let us know that or come up with a plan --hold on, [laughter] I'm getting my picture taken. Paul Moore asked if there were additional comments on Crabapple Overlay. Commission Member Bob Moheb asked if it would be possible for anyone on the DRB to elaborate on this a little more. Me said maybe he is little uneducated, but what happens with the Dm exactly --it is his understanding that their recommendations are just that --recommendations and the developer and builder does not have to follow their recommendations. May Staff can elaborate on this too. Speaker Terry Herr (DRB) said he would like to elaborate a little bit. He said the Design Review Board makes recomrnendations to the Director of the Department of Development. He said in the past with Flulton County they would make their recommendations and would say in 60% of the cases, those recommendations would be overturned or ignord by the people that they were making the recommendations to and in the last 4 months of the Fulton County to Milton transition, the DRB did not convene during that time. They were consistently told that there were no cases to review. He said so as you can see, what we have resulted in is that developments have been approved that the DRB did not make any recommendations to Staff on so therefore Staff was acting autonomous at that point and time. He said again, with DM as a set-up with the City of Milton, the DM is an advisory committee to Torn Wilson. Tom has indicated very strongly that he wants to follow through with the recomrnendations and at this point, they believe that the intent will take place, but they are a body very similar to the Planning Commission. They can only make recommendations, but their intent is to try to uphold the overlay as it is cumntly written and with subsequent amendments that he believes will help the overall document. They consistently as it was being written we were working with Fulton Covnty and their legal staff and the staff with the development arm, and it got watered down considerably. There could have been more teeth in the overlay, but for various reasons, one of them being allowing enough leeway and gerrymandering at the management level. He said he thought several important points were left out of the overlay as a result of this. He said to his thinking, the DRB should actually have some teeth to it; otherwise they sit as a panel and make recommendations and have 90% overturned, so he believes it is important to have the enforcement aspect of the overlays as well. He said it is the case right now --there is no real enforcement beyond once that permit is signed and the project is built --was it built according to the plans that were approved even. There is not that level of entitlement as a design review board to enforce that and actually before the C.O. is issued say, yes this project meets the plans that were approved by the DRB or by the Planning Commission or by anyone else, so he believes it is important to have some of those check points in there to make it a sound body to do business by. Page 12 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 Commission Member Bob Moheb asked if that was something they would really want to do -going back before C.O.'s are issued and reviewing all the single family homes, multi-use developments? Speaker Terry Herr @RBI said he would have to think about that one. He said that single family homes would be a littIe more challenging. He said he cannot speak for the rest of his group, but he felt it is important that there are some checks and balances there. Commission Member Bob Moheb said he thinks that is what Chairman Moore was saying earlier, that the PIanning Commission is trying to get something through that would put these master plans into more of an ordinance versus a recommendation because the majority of us would like to see the same thing happen. Speaker Terry Herr (DRB) said he would agree wholeheartedly with that -if it becomes ordinance. It would help the problem a lot, yes. Chair Paul Moore Ben closed public comment on Crabapple and moved forward with the discussion of the Highway 9 overlay. He said he was going to ask for a point of order from the Board, as they are following up with comments made by the public and clarification needs to be made. Then opened floor to public comment. Speaker Heidi Sowder said she has lived in the State Highway 9 Overlay District for the past 8 years and was a member of the Bethany Road Residence Association and has seen the 2003 revised overlay in action over the past 4 112 years. She said that as a resident of the area, she feel the following changes or additions are aligned with the purpose of intent in that they would promote desirable conditions for community and commerce and protect property against blithe and depreciation as well. During her research, she found that the following recommendations have precedence in the adopted werlays of the Northeast Fulton, Cristendale, Sandtown, South Futton Parkway, Cedar Groove and Northwest Fu'lton which are all currently included in the zoning ordinance in the City of Milton. Therefore, she said she would recommend the following 4 changes or additions are made to Section 12-G for the building materials and architectural treatment: First, she said she would see that No. 7 would have verbiage added that requires townhouse md duplex unit building plans to exhibit differentiated exterior wall materials on the vertical wall spaces within each block of units. She said so basically, the purpose there would be keeping it from every single unit, if it were a 6 unit block that it would not be all tan brick, so a variation there. Secondly, prior to Item No. 14, have verbiage inserted that states, the exterior wall material of all non-residential buildings, townhouse and duplex units consist of a minimum of 60% vertical wall plain of the foIlowing: brick, *? plank or natural or pre-cast stone. Thirdly, she would request that Jtem No. 14 be amended with verbiage limiting the accent building materials to a maximum of 40% per vettical wall space and lastly, she would ask that a verbiage be added which limits the building height to two stories or no more than 30 feet from the grate to the peak. She stated that these changes are the ones that have the most immediacy to her having seen her overlay in operation over the Past several years. She said there are additional changes and additions she believes will serve and enhance this overlay as well and they can be addressed in the future when a more thorough review is done. Chair Paul Moore asked if any other public comment on Highway 9 Overlay. Speaker John McMillan thanked Chairman and Committee for their service and stated they had all been around a long time in the community and he sure appreciated there taking the time away from their families to help make Milton a better place to live. He said he too had been involved in the Highway 9 Overlay, and in fact back in 1998 or so, he said he thinks he was one of the people that asked Commissioner Fulton to form the overIay and he said at that time that they were forming the one in Johns Creek and would be happy to help do when for Highway 9, so he was part of the original overlay committee and then was blessed to be a part of the update which he believes was put in place in 2003. He said that one thing he would say is that both of those processes were characterized by many hours by all the various different members of the community, the homeowners' associations of various different groups, and individuals from the county [hat would also have some input. He said that those were literally hundreds of hours and many months of meetings to Page 13 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 brmulate those. He said they were starting from scratch, there was a lot more work that was required then and the product that came together for the most part he thought was excelIent. Be said they started out with no overlay and trying to prevent metal buildings and concrete blocks and things of that nature and he thought for the most part they did. He said there were other things he heard most recently that most people are dissatisfied with is the infamous Quantum bank building and he said that Heidi has proposed some things that might help deal with those types of situations again and he heartily agree with all that. He said that they also had another informal weekly meeting before the sign ordinance recently and what he heard from that gronp was a various number of stakeholders some who had been involved before and some who had not, was that they want to try to improve Highway 9 and have it look more like Deerfield to give it a look that they would be more proud of than even some of the look that we are today. In particular try to prevent some of those very same things that they have spoken about from happening again. He said there was a tremendous amount of time and effort put into this overlay and he did not think that any of us would want to be scrapped and start over again. He said that every work of this nature is a progress, not a perfection and so if they can refine it and tune it with the community's input and other stakeholders, he thinks that is hopefully what they are all about. He does not necessarily think that this type of forum where you are kind of under the gun to make a few quick changes and stamp it and that is it and the process is done is the way to do it. He totally recommends that we take the time as they have in the past to get community input and really try to come up with a product that everybody can be proud of and not try to rush anything. In building the City of Milton, he thought that part of their charge was that they would bring over the things in place that they had formulated under Fulton County --specificalIy the overlays and some other ordinances that the community had worked a long time to put together -so a lot of effort and well thought out design eIernents and other things into them and work on the big things first. Security, fixing some intersections and then go back and tweak some things at a time when there is more time instead of trying to do everything at once. He said that he thought there are a lot of very talented peopIe, but he believed we need to focus on the bigger things first and take time to do it the correct way and get input from the entire community before they rush into anything. He said that this is the vision of the people he has talked to. Try to improve what they have, but not try to rush it. Above all, we want full community input. Thanked Commission for their time and service. Commission Member Curtis Mills said that the intention of this meeting tonight was solely to seek community input. He said they actually thought that there might be hundreds of people here and went to pretty great lengths to advertise and solicit and is not quite sure what more they could have done. He said that clearly this group is interested in doing exactly what he suggested and making intelligent informed decisions and he feels pretty comfortable with that. Commission Member George Ragsdale said to follow-up on Mr. Mills --so there is no misconception; they were under the gun specifically with regard to the sign ordinance. He said that the reason these overlays came up for review is because there were things pulled out of them that with respect to signs as the new sign ordinance was created. He said that they are not under the gun to do anything with the overlays and they actually initiated this process on their own because they wanted to do exactly what you suggested. Commission Member Cary Schlenke said just as a point of clarification too, you [John McMillan] talked about a few weaknesses that were seen in the Highway 9 Overlay and you spoke about the comments that Heidi Sowcler made, are there any other areas that you have seen that you where you thought we could have done that better or areas that you know residents had problems with that you would like to see in the overlay as it is now to be revised. Speaker John McMillan said what he would suggest is for instance, what they did recently the last time that they had a project approved at Fulton County, is they went ahead and spent the money on a rendering so that there was no question as to what kind of architecture it was supposed to be and was not left up to a staff member to interrupt that. Commission Member Cary Schlenke said Iike what Buck Bell from the DRB said, a picme is worth a thousand words. Speaker John McMiIlan said yes and it was a specific design that was adopted per se by the Fulton County Commission that the Commissioners reviewed ahead of time and voted on everything at the same time so that you did not shuffle off a part of it to the DRB to have somebody interrupt it different perhaps than what was presented to the Commission --so that Page 14 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24.2007 worked all real well and think it would have helped for certain in the Quantum bank situation and perhaps some others that seem to have fell into the cracks. Commission Member Cary Schlenke said she knew there were some photographs in the overlay of a few buildings --is that what you are speaking of? Do you know where that document ever ended up? Speaker John McMillan said that it is not necessarily a document per se. Eulton County adopted a policy that they wanted to see a rendering ofthe projects that were proposed so this is probably in the last 12-18 months. Commission Member Cary Schlenke said so you are saying if a project is coming forward, bring a rendering of this is what my building is going to Iook like? Speaker John McMillan said yes and so that is all approved at the same time that the zoning is so that way you have the decision-makers, the Commission passing on it and incorporating it all into the same thing as opposed to having a DRB that is separate from it to then go back and see what they think was the intent of the parties --it gives another level of certainty to the zoning piece which is really where you consecrate on a lot of those things anyway and link it all together. This is a method of doing this that takes away the interpretation piece from the architecture part of it. Commission Member Cary Schlenke said thank you [John McMillan] for your input on that but another point she wanted to make and George may have made this point already, but she said the point of this meeting was to get more citizen input, especially if we move forward with the Design Review Board for the first time on the Highway 9 Overlay. They felt that there were quite a few areas that needed some clean-up so that there was not so much left up to interpretation or areas that did not need to be addressed --like there would need to be something for the Design Review Board to reflect on --like what do they want here. She said like building height was one of the things Heidi had on her list. That is sort of Be point of this --not a rush to redo the overlay,just to clean up so there are no surprises for the community. Speaker John McMillan said exactly, and as you have been a party to, they did spend a lot of time on it and even though there was some give and take, he believed that everyone who was as part of that process really knew what was going into it. He said as always, it is not a perfect document so they did not understand that somebody could go and say they were going to use all accent material and somehow staff may miss that. That is obviously in violation of the intent of it, but if we had a rendering at the zoning, then we would know that there was an issue because it would speak to the type of material that the exterior faqade of that building would have been, so he thought this would have helped it. This is just mentioned as a method that other municipalities have used that were successful and it takes again a IittIe bit more of the interpretation out of it. Commission Member Cary Schlenke said she thought this was a great idea. Speaker John McMiElan said another thing he would mention about height is he thinks they need to look at height in a context of what is around it so that for instance if something was in the Deerfield proximity that might have a higher height than something that was out closer to the Bethany Bend area as he calls it, so they may be some abiliv to relate the content of it in terms of what is around it might be a good idea. Chair Paul Moore asked for any additional comments and wanted to remind everyone as Commission Member Cary Schlenke had mentioned, this Commission will be spending 12 months going over the Comprehensive Plan for this City and one-third of that component is Ithe public participation component that is required by the Department of Community Affairs, so there will be ample time to discuss these areas in a greater context. Look at designs, elevation drawings, and any recommendations that will be Milton specific. The things that have been done in the past will be very different in our future, so these opportunities are on the horizon very soon. Page 15 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 Staff Mike Tuller said he said that in the creation of the committee that is going to be appointed to look at the Comprehensive Plan Use Plan as a part of their charge, there are the 7 members of this Commission that are before you that are currently appoint4 to this Commission, there are going to be 2 additional Board members, the Chairman of the DRB and the Chairman of the BZA, then there are several additional members rounding out that committee to a committee of 16 that are members of the community at: large, so each City Council person has the opportunity to appoint one member from their district to that additional committee of 7, so if you have any interest, he encourages you to immediately contact your city council person for your district and please express your desire to be a part ~fthat planning commission or plan mission which will be undertaken in the very near future. It is absolutely one of the best opportunities for community input to help design what Milton is, has been and will become. Staff Mike TulIer said he said they wiIl probably have clarity on the appointees by May 3rd, but the Town Hall meeting is next Monday, but there is no definitive cut-of point but he said he has been compiling a list of potential candidates. We will need their home street addresses just for verification of districts, but we are compiling it and they can send me an email and it is a limited group unfortunately. They can only bring on another 7, but there will be at least another couple of weeks. Commission Member George Ragsdale asked what the date of the next City Council meeting was when those appointments are going to be made. Staff Mike Tuller said he was not certain if it was going to be addressed on the 3rd, but in the very near future. He said they will probably know next week. Commission Member Bob Moheb said he would like to encourage the citizens if they make it on to the task force or not, it is a very important thing for our city so this is what will plan our city for the next 20 years or so, so this base plan is really 'rnportant so even if you do not make it on a committee, please come out and give us your opinions, because they definitely would like to hear them. Chair Paul Moore called for any other public comment. Speaker Laura Wpong. She stated that she is with Crooked Creek Homeowners' Association and they are the largest community in the City of Milton. She said she has been in this community for 11 plus years and is very excited that they are going to go down the comprehensive planning route and wished they could have done this a long time ago. She said she has been banging her head for 11 years because they do not have one. She said that the problem with their area and she has worked extensiveIy with the Bethany Area Residence Association for many years and many of the members you know who have made their faces known to Fulton County and the Board of Commissioners. She said there has already been damage done on Highway 9 --too much commercialization --too much density --too much of a hodge-podge -- there is no coordinative look. She said when she drives out her front entrance --they are very proud of their community. They are a nice golf course community and they like their community --it is an active community. When they drive out to the right -you kind of look and say, what happened here. She stated that the Highway 9 Overlay did make a difference --thank goodness. She said there was a couple in her community and down the road that helped put this together because prior to that it was frankly a living nightmare. It is a mess so the question is what we do now moving forward to kind of cIean up what is there so it can have the look and feel of the City of Milton which we all want. She can say that all the residents of Crooked Creek want which is why many of us on our government affairs committee are very active and spend a lot of time dealing with Fulton County and being very frustrated if she can be quite honest. She said in moving forward, they do not want to see the density --the Beazer Homes, the town homes, the things that were put in place frankly just to look pretty darn tacky. She said she thinks they have ruined some of that look, so what can they do to move forward and believes they need to think very hard about that. In addition to this, traffic really needs to be focused on. The biggest hstration that she has had with Fulton County was the studies did not take into consideration what is going to happen to traffic in the future --not right now --but when we put 500 residents in a community, what is going to happen? That is what we need to know. We need to design things so that they work when we have people there and she Page 16 of 22 PFanning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2005 zertainly can understand Crabapple's perspective, because they are experiencing some of these issues. She said they have some real issues along Highway 9. Bethany Bend and that area as the transition to the City of Milton occurs --we are getting a CVS and I cannot imagine what traffic is going to be like, but I think it is going to be really awful because it was not designed -or designed with the thought of all the traffic that already exists. She really believes that this is a very important part and you have to somehow incorporate that moving forward. She said that currently with the Highway 9 Overlay, it does focus on commercialization which is good --it has town homes, it has apartments, but we also need homes. We are whole communities, so we need to incorporate that as well. We need to have more specific kinds of density because we do not need what we have right now and we need to have more serious consideration addressing the mffic. The city has to just be more comprehensive and really look toward the future. We need to focus on turning lines, signalization, the number of cars passing through there at a kture state not at the current state and these are things she hopes are considered moving forward and as we go down making modifications to Highway 9 and go down the cleaning path, that these issues are Iooked at. Chair Paul Moore asked for any additional public comment. He read into the record that Commission Member Curtis Mills had a previous engagement this evening md was required to leave the meeting tonight at 8:55 p.m. Speaker Joelle Cochran. She resides on Morning Mountain Way in Crooked Creek in the City of Milton. She said she was here tonight to voice her thoughts and opinions on Highway 9 and the overlay area. She said as she has seen over thee past 6 years living within Croaked Creek. She thanked the Commission for taking forward their recommendation to have the Highway 9 area part of the design review process. She stated she knew there were many in this area that do not feel that this is an effective process and that it delays maybe the speed with which things can be done, but having been part of that Highway 9 overlay development, it became obviously to her over the past several years that there are some inherent weaknesses in that overlay. She stated that are also many strengths. She said that many of the accidents that have occurred over the past 3 years in that area were really secondary to an oversight from Fulton County versus an werlay that was weak. That being said, she stated that she did believe Heidi Sowder's recommendations to put specific percentages on buildings materials of primary materials and accent materials would be beneficial. She said that after review many of the overlays, there was really only one other overlay that she came upon that was the Chattahoochee Hill Country that does net have specific percentages within that overIay. She believes and Mr. Bell talked about this, it would be helpful to the Design Review Board if they knew specifically what they are looking for. The Quantum bank happened for exactly that reason because there was no specification and it was left to interpretation of what an accent material or primary material was. She believes things of this nature couId be prevented. She said she certainly understand Mr. McMillan's thoughts on not overhauling the whole thing. She does think in time the Highway 9 Overlay does need to be looked at because they are all well aware that Highway 9 will be widened and she said they really need to think 5 years down the road and consider what the setbacks are, consider the faces and how everything will look once the road is widened. She said she knew that right now the youth of this city --that is not something that we can take the time to do, therefore, she thinks that making those minor amendments to maybe just being specific on their percentages would help at least in the short term. Lastly, one thing that she heard this evening that she believes Mr. Bell first said and then Mr. McMillan took it a step further, and she would like to consider as a resident of Crooked Creek, there was a discussion of planning and looking at the densities along Highway 9. She thinks it was a good recommendation that they take the major corridors such as Windward Parkway and Highway 9 -obviously to the North we have McFarland and Highway 9 --and really consider focusing our commercial density within those areas. She said she believed that Ithe Commission and the Council needs to be very mindful that although Highway 9 is a commercial corridor, over the years Fulton County chose not to necessarily treat it as commercial and allowed many residents to live along that corridor. She often hears that it is a commercial corridor and there are not very many residents there, but she calls that into question. There are about 6000 residents along that corridor and that is where the residential density exists. She thinks that CounciI and your committee really need to think about that when you go forward with your policies because it is our backyard. Commission Member Bob Moheb asked Joelle Coehran about the residential population out there, but at the same time you said something about sort of grouping our commercial together in those commercial corridors. So just for Page 17 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 54.2007 clarification on that, where do you think exactly a cut-off for that commercial corridor would be along Highway 9 coming up toward Crooked Creek, Bethany and that area? Speaker Joelle Cochrau said she believes it would be hard to give a cut-off. She said she looks at the corner of Bethany and Highway 9 which is very close to Crooked Creek --you already have two corners there developed commercially and there is a third that is on the table as we speak to be developed. She said she is sure that that fourth corner will build that way. She said she did not think that they have to fill all that space, in between going south or even going north. She said she was part of the comprehensive 2025 planning process for the area right outside of Crooked Creek that has one commercial little section but it is surrounded by residential, some multi-family and a whole lot of single family homes. She sat that for our city we want to have a minimum intensiq type of development and around those areas .this is something to be considered. She said she is not speaking on behalf of a11 of Crooked Creek but there are two other members of Crooked Creek here tonight and she does believe that all the members in the community need to get much more involved. She said she did not know what all of those people want, but she said she would have never bought her house if she thought she was going to be living on a commercial corridor like Highway 9, but now her family is situated and life is fine and they will make the best of it, but she gets very concerned --she unde~tandsthe financial significance of having it be a viable commercial corridor --she does understand that, but there are a whole lot of residents that live in that area and they really need to be considered in a11 of their decisions. She said if this means that we have to build the finest commercial developments and jump up those square footage costs because there is wow factor to it and it makes those residents feel okay to live there, then that is important. She said Highway 9 with regards to the whole city is a place where the billboards have been allowed and where they have the Love Shack or whatever --it wound up on Highway 9 and again, that is where a huge percent of the residents of Milton live, so this is where she is coming from. Commission Member Bob Moheb asked Joelle Cochran in her opinion; would she say the main problem in that area is mare the commercial w the multi-family? Speaker Joelle Cochran said she there are certainly probably many people in there area that are disappointed with how much town home development occurred within that area. That being said, she is also very sensitive to the fact that not everybody in this world can afford to live in a $500,00 or $700,00 home and there are very good people that live in those establishments. She said they now understand that there should have said that the products that were built would be something they would not mind looking at 20 years down the road. She said they were all very new when they got involved in that process and those of them that were around at that time that were fighting were constantly told that we could not say no to a lot of things. In hindsight, they could have probably pushed a whole lot harder. She said as a city you need to have balanced housing and she thinks what Highway 9 did for the City of Milton is it gave all the standard housing in one spot. She said she believed they can stil! make it the best that it can be and that is where she thinks the east and west of the City of Milton get a little skewed. She said that the reality is that for those of us who are living in homes as nice as those in the west, that is our reality and those folks that are living in those town homes are just as important residents to MiIton as everybody else, but the city has a responsibility to take what is lefi to be developed on Highway 9 and step it up many,many notches and make it better than Fulton County ever saw it and that is what she is asking of the city and why she worked as hard as she did for the City of Milton to happen because it was just to hard to fight it at Fulton County. Commission Member Cary Schlenke said she did not know if it was her or Ms. Wysong that talked about the hodge-podge --can you explain as they are trying to go forward --and she believed it is just the nature in what get sold and who buys it as to what they decide to put there, but if there are any comrnuniiy members that have any input about how an overlay may better serve that hodge-podge look. She said she did not know if they have those answers here, but maybe just to go on the record. Page 18 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 14,2007 Speaker Laura Wysong said that due to what the City of Alpharetta has done with the rendering --Old Town Alpharetta --they are trying to put together what they want It t~ look like. She said she believed Milton really needs to do the same thing and then as John said, when there is another to build, how will we fit it into that bigger picture versus --well you have a cinder block thing here and you have got another thing here --you know, you look at Publix on Bethany and Highway 9 and I am sorry, but it just does not fit and yet Starbucks on the front --well: you wish the same design could have happened but there is no consistent fee! or look for how the community wanted the construction to happen and it is all over the map and if they really want the city to look and feel different --she said one of the places she always remembered when she traveled -in her many travels, is the City of Delmar out in California. It is an older city and they have a lot of stuff out there but they have figured out a way to make the look and feel of the city blend and it works. They have old construction and new construction and they have developed walkways and the lighting and everything blends so as the old stuff turns over --they can say this is what you need to have it look like as you turn this property over and things get aged. She said she really thinks this is what Milton needs to be tooking at as they start the comprehensive plan because when she travels up toward Forsyth, frankly that is a nightmare and she is happy she is not living up there. She said she thinks Milton can make it happen and she will do everything in her power from Crooked Creek and being on the board to support the efforts moving forward. She stated the community really cares and the committees care or they would not all: be here. Speaker Heidi Sowder said the history about the Kelly Tire and Montana", that was way before the overlay was even in existence. Pub'lix was also done before the overlay was redone in 2003, so the ones that are very much out of place, except for two items, Loving Hands Animal Hospital and the Quantum Bank are all prior to our overlay. She said the reason they are all up in arms is what happened with Loving Hands and what happened with Quantum Bank was specifically what she addressed in her request --that there was no specification for building materials and there was not a DRB and when those items went through, they did have their renderings with them because that is something that Commissioner Riley had requested that all the paperwork be together when it goes through the entire permitting process within Fulton County, so when this went along, it was subject to interpretation and this is when you get into the gray areas. A person's idea of what an accent material looks like was not what you got on the Quantum bank project --actuaIly that was like a primary building material. Tile is not a primary building material, so that is why for her over the past 8 years that she has lived here; she has been involved in the whole application ofthe overlay. Speaker Buck Bell (DRB} said that the Highway 9 Overlay was written to avoid the DRB's involvement, so nothing up there went before any council. They have asked for it now to be n part of it and he did not know if the votes have come through to make it such, but to everyone else's concern, as a member of the DRB, they cannot restate facts. If it says that there is a 30 foot maximum heighh then they cannot tell them it has to be 25 feet, but you have designers and architecfs and people with good taste sitting on that board and they can interpret every other visual and aesthetic aspect of that. He said that one thing that they ask for in these types of situations for renderings when it goes before zoning it is important. At times he said they actually had Fulton County send out to the DRE pre-zoning to look at these renderings and past judgment, so we were not only able to critique their work 'but help you understand what could be done to get more of what you wanted, so there is a little wiggle and wobble room here to get this housekeeping done and straighten things out a little bit if you trust their taste and opinion to help you get what you want to get. He said that the other thing that is very important is what Heidi was saying, in that there needs to be some cohesive element introduced into Highway 9 that starts to link it together. What is coming and what needs to be redone. The tighter you get it when you start rewriting this thing, you add that in so when they develop in the future, they have to conform, like street signs and things the city can control. You start spreading this continuity along Highway 9 and slowly you will start putling it all back together to mitigate some of the aesthetic problems that occur. He said he just wanted to add that with the DM. He said they are not going to think any less of Highway 9 than they do of Bimingham or Crabapple or any of those that come our way. Commission Member Bob Moheb asked Buck Bell if he knew, if he could clarify something for him. He heard that Quantum Bank got through with their tile that they have --their accent material they have all around the building --is because somehow whoever was interpreting their plan came to the point that it is there was 4 different types of accent materials and they interpreting that each accent material is allowed 25% or something like that. Page 19 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 Speaker Buck Bell (DM) said he was involved in that and he said he did brief through the Highway 9 Overlay today just to kind of look to see what the weaknesses are, and it is written in a very general conceptual position statement compared to the Crabapple and Biminghm which are very specific straight down the line, so it does leave a lot to this interpretation again, but he said he was sorry, but there is never any excuse for bad taste. Commission Member Bob Moheb said that maybe the Board would like to have the DRB coming to meeting with them sometime and some former Crabapple CoaIition members and get there input and some local business owners and stakeholders. Public Speaker Rose Prestianni who resides Providence Point in the lovely City of Milton. She thanked everyone for allowing for the public forum and allowing their input tonight. She said that it was not a big turnout tonight, but she felt it was the beginning because it is wonderful to hear the concerned citizens. She said it is really about the total picture --not the big picture, because small can be beautiful and she thinks is really about putting all the pieces together and looking at this in context. She said they heard a lot about the Crabapple Overlay, the Highway 9 Overlay, but not much about Birmingham Village, but she thinks it is really about looking at all of these as a total and not each in its own so that we as a City of Milton have a common look and feel that will be the envy of all the cities around us and she believed are already on that path, so the Comprehensive Land plan is critical and we can start beating the drums in our own neighborhoods and realty get more on exposure here. This needs to be done in partnership with our neighboring communities. Earlier this evening we talked about the Crabapple Crossroads and she said she would net put her comments into the record because she preferred not to do thac but if we need to get people to bypass it, we elude to some other roads where we could offset trafic and this needs to be looked at again as a total picture and we do not create a problem somewhere else by trying to bypass because we want to strengthen our partnerships with our neighboring communities and see the DRB strengthened, see this Commission strengthened. It is a little said to hear that 90% of the recommendations were not taken into consideration and that they did not apparently have good information before you made your recommendation- She said they need to let the traffic flow, let the communities grow, but not at the sacrifice ofthe quality oftheir lives. Chair Paul Moose asked for any additional public comment on Highway 9. Speaker Carol Lane said she appreciated all the people that were here tonight and commented that it is not 100 people, just one more than it was the last time. She said that one of Be things people can do is to join these sites. Go on the websites and you can look at the calendar and see when these meetings are. She witnessed the sign ordinance on Thursday and was there until 1:15 AM and she believed it ended at 2:00 AM or something. She was so impressed with the Planning Commission and the sign ordinance that they had passed and it was a really good feeling, but then once the City Council made their decision, it was for naught. She said she would recommend to the people that you attend these meetings. They want to know what you think and they are elected. She said she knows that they represent her, but it is your obligation to be involved in this city. Commission Member Cary Schlenke asked about the items for the Highway 9 Overlay to put on the table for consideration for changes in the overlay that she emailed to the Planning Commission and also emailed them via the City of Milton. She asked if those items could be spread on the minutes and stated for the people who remained in the room, Ithat this is a list of recommended changes that were identified during the City of Milton incorporation effort to some of the groundwork that was done to Ihy to find areas of improvement to the Highway 9 Overlay. She stated she did not have them in front of her to read, but she did not.* Motion was made to close public comment and seconded. No discussion so motion carried unanimously. * See attached Exhibit 1, Highway 9 Overlay Items, that are incorporated herein and by reference made part of these Minutes. Page 20 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 Chair Paul Moore said he wanted to make a closing comment to those peopIe who joined them this evening. He said although they are not necessary good at what they do yet., he said they intend to be and are hoping that they wilI go back and share with the community what you encounter in your daily lives, whether your business day or your private after hours lives, weekends, engage people at the ballparks, schools, and invite them to these meetings. We invite public comment, take it seriously and will try to act on it so we can move forward and create the comprehensive land use plan and we really truly have the input of the greater community. He applauded all who appeared tonight and made public comment. Some of the faces we have recognized from past meetings and he challenged each and every one of them to bring somebody new next time so we can fill out some more public comment cards and get additional input. He said it is all too often those who have taken a historical interest in this city that are the only voices heard and he recognized that in many cases, each of you speaks for a much larger crowd that is not sitting behind you in the chairs this evening and for whatever reasons those folks are not able to join us. He said as they are putting the cornerstones of Milton in place right now there is no other time that is going to be as important as right now t~ make sure that these cornerstones are aligning the foundation of what we want Milton to become and it is ver?, easy for it to be a narrow scope of voices, although he does not discredit any of those voices they have heard today, because they all are so engaged, but please ensure that your community hears your outcry for more input. We intend to provide the opportunity and he hopes it is seized by a large community going forward. ADJOURNMENT After no further business motion was made and seconded to close meeting. It was voted on and unanimous. Meeting adjourned at 9: 17 P.M. Dated Approved: (J 'ZC ' 07 d--* r+x-/+ . \ *i /,d--* r+x-/+ . \ *i /, K,1,c-1q, ---.-<-, ---.-<--hcesci Itie pa3 Moore, Chairman City Clerk's ofice Planning Commission Page 2 1 of 22 Planning Commission Regular Meeting Tuesday, April 24,2007 Highway 9 Overlay Joelle Corcoran and Heidi Sowder The State Route 9 Overlay District was adopted by the Board of Commissioners on April 7, 1999 and amended on October 1, 2003. Based upon review of the document, its current implementation during the zoning process and comparisons to other approved overlay district plans, certain improvements are recommended. Of particular urgency is Item 3, the implementation of a Design Review Board for the State Route 9 OverIay District. 12 is recommended that a Design Review Board be put in place as soon as possible following the incorporation of the City of Milton to faciIitate the application of the Overlay. In addition, it is recommended that a master plan be formulated for the area within the Overlay in order to guide development. Below are the recommended improvements: 1. Signage height for Primary Monuments from 20 feet to a maximum of 10 fed for multi-tenant signs. 2. Wall Sign Illumination shall be changed to allow external illumination only. 3. A Design Review Board shall be appointed to review all plans for development in the district for compliance with the State Route 9 Overlay standards prior to the approval of a Land Disturbance Permit, Building Permit, ar Sign Permit. 4. Remove Item 12G-3 stating "In no event shall a proposal which otherwise conforms to applicable codes...be delayed issuance of a building permit for more than 10 days due to review process." 5. Landscape Strips shall be increased to 40 feet along State route 9, and 25 feet along Morris Road, Deerfield Parkway, Cogburn Road, Webb Road and Bethany Bend Road. 6. For sites of 4 acres or less, a 50 foot undisturbed buffer EO foot improvement setback shall be located adjacent all AG-I land or property zoned, used, or developed for residential uses. For sites larger than 4 acres the buffers shall be 75 foot undisturbed with a 10 foot improvement setback. Buffer shall be replanted to buffer standards where sparsely vegetated. 7. Tree requirements shall be changed to allow 4 inch caliper, large over-story planted 40-60 on center. 8. Building Material requirements shalI be amended to include: Non-residential and attached residential to have 75% brick andlor natural or pre-cast stone facades. Accent Materials shall not exceed 25% and include: glass, architectural concrete, cementacious siding, pre-cast stone and stucco. Existing prohibited materiaIs remain and are to also be applied to single family detached. 9. Accent Building Materials shall constitute no more than 25% of non-residential building facades. 10. EIiminate red from the Roofing Color options. 1I. Acceptable Roofing Materials shall be asphalt shingle, composition shingIe, wood shake shingle and standard seem metal. 12. Adopt the Paint Color palette, with the exception of red, from the Northwest Fulton Overlay. 13. Screening and Fencing shall be amended to require refuse areas and receptacles to be screened by landscape materials in addition to an enclosure. 14. Billboards and sign kiosks are prohibited. 15. Community and residential design standards shouId be thoroughly researched and added to the State Route 9 Overlay Standards. As stated above these recommendations are a resuIt of comparisons to other approved overlay district pIants in North Fulton. These recommended changes provide necessary improvements to the State Route 9 Overlay District Document without placing undue strain upon the business and development community. Exhibit 1 Page 22 of 22