HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes - CC - 07/19/20211
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Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 1 of 155
CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you, Rabbi. I'd like to, uh, call the meeting — the regular
meeting of the Milton City Council for Monday, July 19, 2021 to
order. The city strongly recommends that you review tonight's
agenda and — carefully and if you wish to speak on any item on the
agenda then, please bring your public comment cards up to our city
clerk to my right here as soon as possible. While the Milton rules
allow a speaker to turn in their comment card up until the clerk calls
the agenda item, once the agenda item is called, no more comment
cards can be accepted.
Will our city clerk please call roll and make general
announcements?
ROLL CALL
City Clerk: Good evening Mayor and Council. I'll be happy to call roll for the
July 19, 2021, regular meeting. I would like to remind those in
attendance to please silence all cell phones at this time. Those
attending the meeting who would like to make a public comment,
you are required to complete a public comment card prior to
speaking on your item. Your comment card must be presented to the,
city clerk prior to the agenda item being called. All speakers please
identify yourself by name, address, and organization before
beginning your comment. If you are representing an organization,
an affidavit is required stating you have the authority to speak on
behalf of that organization.
Please review tonight's agenda. And if you would like to make a
comment, please bring your comment card to me now.
Demonstration of any sort within the chamber is prohibited. Please
refrain from any applause, cheering, booing, outbursts, or dialogue
with any person speaking. Anyone in violation will be asked to
leave. As I call roll this evening, please confirm your attendance.
Mayor Joe Lockwood.
Mayor Lockwood: Here.
City Clerk: Councilmember Peyton Jamison.
CM Jamison: Here.
City Clerk: Councilmember Paul Moore.
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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CM Moore: Here.
City Clerk: Councilmember Laura Bentley.
CM Bentley: Here.
City Clerk: Councilmember Carol Cookerly.
CM Cookerly: Here.
City Clerk: Councilmember Joe Longoria.
CM Longoria: Here.
City Clerk: And for the record, Councilmember Rick Mohrig is joining us via
Zoom. Councilmember Mohrig.
CM Mohrig: Here and I'm in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Sorry, I'm out —
City Clerk: Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thanks for rubbing it, Rick.
CM Mohrig: Well, it's been raining, Joe.
Mayor: Mayor Lockwood present.
Councilmembers Present: Councilmember Peyton Jamison, Councilmember Paul
Moore, Councilmember Laura Bentley, Councilmember Carol Cookerly, and
Councilmember Joe Longoria.
Councilmember Attending via Zoom: Councilmember Rick Mohrig.
Councilmember(s) Absent:
City Clerk: Would everyone please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.
[Pledge of Allegiance]
APPROVAL OF MEETING AGENDA
Mayor Lockwood: Good evening. I want to welcome everybody here tonight and while
everyone is special and important, I also want to recognize that
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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Former Councilmember Matt Kunz is here. And I also see an elected
official, Senator Brandon — State Senator Brandon Beach walked in.
So, I want to thank you guys and welcome you here as well as
everybody else. Um, all right, Tammy, if you'll please sound the
next item.
City Clerk: That item is approval of meeting agenda, Agenda Item No. 21-206.
Mayor?
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I'd like to make a couple of changes and move the new
business items and the unfinished business items, um, to proceed the
consent agenda. Um, is there any other agenda items or changes
anybody has? Okay. I'll open up for a motion.
CM Bentley: Mayor, I'd like to make a motion to approve the agenda as amended.
CM Moore: Second.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion from Councilmember Bentley, a second from
Councilmember Moore, uh, to approve the agenda as amended. All
in favor, please say aye.
Councilmembers: Aye.
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Bentley moved to approve the Meeting
Agenda with the following amendments:
• Move up New Business items and Unfinished Business items to proceed
the Consent Agenda.
Councilmember Moore seconded the motion. The motion passed (7-0).
PUBLIC COMMENT
Mayor Lockwood: That's unanimous. All right. Next item is public comment, general
public comment. And general public comment is a time for citizens
to share information with the mayor and city council and to provide
input and opinions on any matter that is not scheduled for its own
public hearing during tonight's meeting. Each citizen who chooses
to participate in public comment must complete a comment card and
submit it to the city clerk prior to the agenda item being called.
Please remember, this is not a time to engage the mayor or members
of city council in conversation. When your name is called, please
come forward and speak into the microphone stating your name and
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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address for the record and you'll have five minutes for remarks. The
city encourages you to review the agenda and if you wish to speak
on any item, bring your comment cards to the clerk. Do we have any
general public comment?
City Clerk: We do, Mayor. We have one, Mr. Matt Kunz. If you — we invite you
to the podium.
Mr.Kunz: Thank you, Tammy. Um, Matt Kunz. Address is 730 Sable Point
Road in Milton, Georgia. Um, I'm, actually, here to talk about the
You Tube contract that was recently signed. Um, you know, it was
interesting. In 2016, -I don't know if you can recall this but there was
an interesting, um, situation that came up where people were, uh,
asking about the rights and protections of the city grants as citizens
and whether those rights and protections extend to not just the city
but also those entities with whom the city does business with. Um,
at that time, there was, actually an open records request looking for
the private emails of one of our contractors, Don Broussard in 2015
that, uh, was requested by our citizens.
And Ken Jarrard said, specifically, at that time that yes, those rights
and protections do extend to those of which we are doing business
with. And I agree with that wholeheartedly. But the question I have
now, uh, with regards to the rights and protections, remember we —
we look at not only the laws of the state of Georgia, the laws of the
City of Milton, but also the Constitution of these United States of
America and that includes the First Amendment right to free speech
and those protections of fair and equal protection under the law.
But we have since signed this You Tube contract. And there's an
issue I have with that because right now, You Tube, Facebook, and
a lot of other social media providers, Twitter, have taken the
behavior of censoring public opinions that they do not necessarily
agree with. Now, I'm not going to get into what those are tonight.
But my question is was as they are doing that, they are doing that
not just to ordinary Americans but they've done that to political
candidates. They've done that to politicians in office, including our
own president of our own United States of America. Now, the issue
that I have here is that the city has signed a contract with one of these
providers.
Now, what happens if, just if, it hasn't happened yet but what
happens if You Tube decides that they want to censor an idea by one
of our citizens here that might speak on an issue politically that they
have been making the behavior of doing so over the past year. What
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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if they come along and they have an issue with regards to the
election in 2020 in Fulton County or which people here might even
talk about tonight or the vaccines or whatever. But those are getting
censored. Now, the issue I have is that they may say that they're a
private entity. However, we already have precedent that says that
anybody doing a contract business work with the city is afforded
those same rights and protections.
And if those rights and protections are then not granted then, that
puts the city liable for failure to provide protection of those things.
That's the issue. And so, as tax payers, we don't want to have to pay
from a lawsuit for failure to provide protection for the first
amendment rights and privileges. I know that's not your intent. But
how do we monitor that? Now, the good part is is the market is
making a lot of adjustments right now versus the You Tubes and the
censoring. Uh, you've got Rumble. You've got [inaudible]
[00:07:40]. You've got many others that are out there. But right now
tonight, we've got people that may speak on these issues.
What would happen if You Tube decides in a public comment that
they just say, "You know, we don't like that section," because their
Google algorithms are, actually, going to see those words. And they
just cut it out. Isn't now the onus on us as citizens to, actually, look
to see if our rights and protections are still being maintained or is
that going to be on you to do that? And, obviously, the city clerk
will watch the tapes and see that everything is there. But what
happens if there is all of a sudden just a gap and there's just a
disappearance of that?
So, my question is is this right. You know, I — I have a concern about
that, especially with regards to First Amendment, especially with
regards to our rights and protections, especially with regards for
freedom of speech. No one should be censored. And as crazy as
some of us are, and I've heard it all, I've been in your seats before,
but the issue is is that everybody has a right to be able to express
themselves in our form of government. And no entity no matter how
big or how powerful they think they are —
City Clerk: One minute.
Mr.Kunz: -- can do anything so to have the right to be able to take that away
from any one of us, anybody in the city. So, as that is why I'm here.
And I would hope that everybody here will have the freedom of
speech afforded to them in tonight's meeting as well as any meeting
coming further on. Thank you.
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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Mayor Lockwood: Thank you.
City Clerk: Mayor, I have one more general comment but it will be read into the
record.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay.
City Clerk: It is from Mary Williams. She's at 15270 High Grove Road. Please
include plans for overflow parking when needed as plans are
developed and being implemented for the former Milton Country
Club park and recreation events. Using the neighboring subdivision,
Wood Valley, as a parking lot is not acceptable and contrary to your
FMCC master plan. Thank you.
CONSENT AGENDA
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. All right. If that's all the public — general public
comment, I'll move on to the consent agenda. If you, Tammy,
wouldn't mind reading the — found in the consent agenda items.
City Clerk: Thank you, Mayor. That first item is approval of the June 7, 2021,
City Council Meeting Minutes. It's Agenda Item No. 21-207.
Our second item, approval of the June 21, 2021, City Council
Meeting Minutes, it's Agenda Item No. 21-208.
Next, we have an Approval of the Financial Statements and
Investment Report for Period Eight, May 2021. It's Agenda Item
No. 21-209.
Our fourth item, Approval of an Amendment No. 1 to the Services
Agreement between the City of Milton and Meritage Systems, Inc.,
to Revise the Terms and Conditions, Agenda Item No. 21-210.
Our fifth item, Approval of the Professional Services Agreement
between the City of Milton and MCCI, LLC for Scanning Services,
Agenda Item No. 21-211.
Our next item is Approval of Subdivision Plats and Revisions. The
name of the development is Manor Estates at 3320-3370 Longstreet
Road. It's Land Lot 253 and 324, District 2, Section 2. It's a minor
plat to create six 3 acre lots from three existing parcels. Lot sizes
will range from 3.05 acres to 3.70 acres. It's a total acres of 19.52
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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with a density of 0.31 lots per acre. It's Agenda Item No. 21-212.
Mayor?
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Do I have a motion on the consent agenda?
CM Bentley: Mayor, I'd like to make a motion to approve the consent agenda as
read.
CM Cookerly: Second.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion from Councilmember Bentley with a second
from Councilmember Cookerly. All in favor, please say aye.
Councilmembers: Aye.
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Bentley moved to approve the Consent
Agenda as read. Councilmember Cookerly seconded the motion. The motion
passed (7-0).
NEW BUSINESS
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. If we can move on to our next item, which, uh, we moved
with our agenda.
City Clerk: And that first item, Mayor, is the Consideration of a Resolution
Reappointing Members to the City of Milton Green Space Advisory
Committee. It's Agenda Item No. 21-213. Mayor?
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I think we've got Bob Buscemi down but I don't believe he's
in — in town. So, Robyn.
Ms. MacDonald: Good evening, Mayor and City Council. Um, so, tonight I'm here to
present, uh, the staff report, um, for two items. But the first one —
Mayor Lockwood: I'm sorry, Robyn. Yeah. This is on —
Ms. MacDonald: Oh, I'm sorry.
Mayor Lockwood: -- no, the Green Space Committee.
Ms. MacDonald: I was just so excited to get started. I — I took over your thunder.
Sorry.
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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Ms. Stickels: Uh, good evening. I'm sorry. I wasn't, actually — I didn't realize I
was supposed to come up here at the beginning of this. As you are
aware, we have, um, a proposal before you to reappoint four
members of the Green Space Committee. We reappointed the other
three in March. Their terms had expired in 2020 and these members
expired in 2021. The bylaws indicate that they will continue to serve
until they're replaced but; um, you know, legal wants, uh, to make
sure everything is — is tied up nicely. So, we have them before you
tonight, uh, for your consideration and reappointment.
I have Marc Walley, Robert Brannon, Robin Gray, and Curtis Mills.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. All right. So, you know, first thing, I just want to say thank
you to those that have served, um, both that we're, uh — are voting
on tonight and — and the other, uh, people on the committee. Um,
for the audience, these are the guys that, uh, 'go out and are finding
and assessing property that the city was able to purchase and — and
will in the future to, uh, preserve in — uh, indefinitely for green
space. So, you know, the things that you guys are — have been doing
and will do in the future, um, our kids and grandkids will all
appreciate. So, thank you for doing that. So, with that, um, do I have
any public comment on this?
City Clerk: We do not, Mayor.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I'll close — close the public hearing on that and I'll open up
for a motion.
CM Cookerly: I'll make it.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay.
CM Cookerly: Uh, Mr. Mayor and Council, I move that we approve reappointing
this esteemed panel members to the city of Milton Green Space
Advisory Committee, Agenda Item No. 21-213.
CM Bentley: Second.
Mayor Lockwood: So, I have a motion for approval from Councilmember Bentley with
a second — I mean, from Councilmember Cookerly with a second
from Councilmember Bentley. All in favor, please say aye.
Councilmembers: Aye.
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Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
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Motion and Vote: Councilmember Cookerly moved to approve Agenda Item
No. 21-213. Councilmember Bentley seconded the motion. The motion passed
(7-0).
Mayor Lockwood: And if Marc and Robin and Curtis and — and Bobby will step
forward, I'll administer their oath. If you guys would, uh, raise your
right hand and — and repeat after me. I solemnly swear and affirm
that I will faithfully perform the duties of, as a member of the Milton
Green Space Advisory Committee of the city and that I will support
and defend the charter thereof as well as the Constitution and the
laws of the state of Georgia and the United States of America.
Congratulations. And, again, thank you very much for your service.
If you guys wouldn't mind standing up here and if the Council will
stand — either join us or stand up there and we'll get a — get a picture.
And I — I think [inaudible] [00:15:59].
[Taking pictures]
Mayor Lockwood: And — and I guess you guys should be impressed that this — all these
folks came here tonight to see you get sworn in. Okay. Um, Tammy,
if you'll please sound the next new business item.
City Clerk: Mayor, that item is consideration of an agreement between the city
of Milton and Southern Conservation Trust, Inc., for a land
management implementation plan for the former Milton Country
Club. It's Agenda Item No. 21-214. Ms. Teresa Stickels.
Ms. Stickels: Thank you. Good evening, Mayor and Council. Um, I was waiting
for the presentation to show up. Um, uh, before you for
consideration tonight is a contract for land management
implementation plan for the former Milton Country Club. Um, I'd
like to mention, in addition to the brief presentation that I will make
and you're welcome to ask any questions, Sarah Leaders is also here
on hand if you have any questions that would be in her area, which
is most of it. Um, the contract amount is $10,000.00. And if
approved, the, um, professional services will be provided by the
Conservation — Southern Conservation Trust.
Um, so, is there — my, um, presentation is not showing. Is it — it's —
City Clerk: They're working on a couple of them.
Ms. Stickels: Oh, okay. That's okay. I'm sorry. I mean, uh, yeah, we can — uh, so
I'll go — go on. The Southern Conservation Trust is a land trust
founded in 1993 to conserve green space. In some cases, land is
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conserved by acquiring it outright, in others, by utilizing permanent
conservation easements, which ensure the land will remain intact
and unchanged in perpetuity. The 5010 is located in Fayette
County, Georgia but they have conserved more — oh, there we go.
Sorry. Let me get — there we go. They have conserved more than
57,000 acres across 11 states.
'That's Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, North Carolina, South
Carolina, Virginia, Arkansas, Louisiana, Kentucky, Texas, and
Colorado. Stewardship or responsibly managing public and private
lands is an important part of their work. Stewardship can take the
form of oversight of the easement properties, restoration of habitats
and/or active management of properties. If the contract before
Council is approved, the Southern Conservation Trust will provide
the city with an environmentally sound land management plan for
the former, um, Milton Country Club. The Southern Conservation
Trust currently has eight public nature areas totaling 1,100 acres.
The site of Sam's Lake Bird Sanctuary, which is pictured up here on
the left, held a drained lake bed that is now being — uh, reverting to
a natural meadow. Um, you can also see in that photo, it's also big.
There are some wetlands that are being restored there. Uh, the city
of Atlanta is sponsoring that, uh, restoration as part of the mitigation
that they're — they're required to do. Morgan Grove, which is
pictured on the right, is a 60 acre retired working forest, which
showcases both natural succession and active management. A
vibrant butterfly garden is maintained to attract pollinators to the
area.
So, you'll see that both of those have elements of what we're
envisioning for the former Milton Country Club. The trust has also
recently acquired its own 375 acre failed golf course. The scope of
work, um, there are five components to the contract. The first is a
baseline study of the current natural state of the flora and fauna and
soils. The remaining four components will all be guided by the
master plan adopted in 2019. Uh, the trust will recommend
vegetative features to provide permanent erosion control of the
disturbed areas along the trail. Uh, the trail that's being moved and,
um, pulled up, moved now.
The trust will create a planting plan of appropriate native plants to
promote water filtration. The trust will advise on processes for the
removal and eradication of invasive species and the introduction of
additional native plants and trees. In addition, they will recommend
installations where appropriate to establish and support wildlife. For
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Monday, July 19, 2021
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instance, nesting boxes as well as wildlife observation areas for park
users. Finally, the trust will provide a document that the city can use
in seeking grant opportunities. The contract work is scheduled to be
completed within 270 days. So, and that's just some pretty pictures
of some south — southeastern meadows.
Any questions?
Mayor Lockwood: Laura?
CM Bentley: I have a question. Thank you very much for sharing that. I just would
love to also make sure that the adjacent property owners to the
former Milton Country Club are aware of this initiative when we
start to, um — yeah, I knew you were going to be on it. Social media
—just make sure that as we — you know, we have, um, this particular
group is, um, um — has experience with transitioning a golf course.
So, I know it's probably not easy and it's not going to be beautiful.
So, as we move into that direction, I think it would be good to share
the plans with, um, especially the adjacent property owners. Thank
you.
Ms. Stickels: And I believe that Greg has shared, um, in some of his recent
dispatches them, um, website for the trust. And I invite people to go
there and see the work that they've done. I think that, uh, everybody
will find it tremendously impressive. I think we're lucky to, uh, be
able to work with them.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Any other questions? Did you say, um, Sarah was — was —
Sarah planned on speaking or just for any questions?
Ms. Stickels: No. She was just here in case you had any questions.
Mayor Lockwood: Do we have any public comments on this?
City Clerk: We do not, Mayor.
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah. I'll close the — the public hearing on this. And, um, also, yes,
I — I agree with this. It's great that we were able to — to do this, um,
to have the opportunity. Um, is there any other questions or
comments? If not, I'll open up for a motion.
CM Bentley: Mayor, I'd like to make a motion —
[Crosstalk]
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CM Bentley: -- between the city of Milton and Southern Conservation Trust for
the land management implementation plan for the former Milton
Country Club.
CM Moore: Second.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion for approval from Councilmember Bentley
with a second from Councilmember Moore. All in favor, please say
aye.
Councilmembers: Aye.
Mayor Lockwood: That's unanimous.
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Bentley moved to approve Agenda Item No.
21-214. Councilmember Moore seconded the motion. The motion passed (7-0).
UNFINISHED BUSINESS
Ms. Stickels: Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Right. Thank you, Teresa. All right. We'll move on to unfinished
business. Um, Tammy, if you'll please sound that item.
City Clerk: Mayor, that item is Consideration of an Ordinance of the City
Council to Authorize Fulton County to Conduct the 2021 Election.
It is Agenda Item No. 21-200. Mr. Ken Jarrard.
Mr. Jarrard: Mayor, members of the Council, you have in front of you this
evening the proposed ordinance and intergovernmental agreement
that will authorize the Fulton County Board of Elections to facilitate
municipal elections in the city of — of Milton. This is an
intergovernmental agreement that we have, um, approved in like
kind before, uh, in the city. Obviously, the greatest variable we have,
uh, are the rates. Uh, this has, actually, got a fairly short clock on it.
This, uh, intergovernmental agreement only runs to the end of this
calendar year, which, of course, will be a municipal cycle.
Um, the duties with respect to Fulton County Board of Elections and
as to what will be required by the city of Milton — the duties with
respect to the city of Milton will be as have traditionally taken by
the city. The rates are the anticipated November 2, 2021, general
rates, are $84,671.00. If there is a runoff, the rate would be
anticipated to be $70,368.00. Uh, Georgia law, specifically,
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contemplates that municipalities can contract with county boards of
elections for this very purpose. Of course, there is an entitlement
under state law for cities to have their own municipal election
superintendent as well.
Uh, I would say that is not as frequently done as it is to contract with
the county. And I'm not sure that Milton is in a position right now
to do that with the upcoming election. Uh, but this is the IGA that
Fulton County has provided. And my understanding is is most of the
other metro cities are reviewing, uh, the same election, IGA. That's
my presentation.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Any questions for Ken at this point? Do we have any public
comment?
City Clerk: We do, Mayor. I'd like to call the first one. Lisa Cauley. You're
invited to the podium.
Ms. Cauley: Hi. My name is Lisa Cauley. I live at 14680 Freemanville Road, in
Milton. I'm requesting the City Council to not authorize, uh, Fulton
County to conduct the November 2021 election. I would like the city
to consider conducting our own municipal elections and to also look
into conducting our elections for state, midterm, and presidential
elections. The two main reasons are financial and election integrity.
Fulton County charges Milton per registered voter, not votes cast.
Our municipal elections are well under 5,000. Um, there was a
special session of the Board of Elections in January 2021.
The board members discussed with Richard Barron how 660 votes
out the precinct MLOIA and MLO1B, the Milton Library were not
counted on the day of the election January 5, 2021. It was a state
GOP who discovered there were no votes out of the Milton Library
weeks after the election. Um, a couple days ago, Speaker of the
House Dave Ralston sent a letter, uh, to Richard Barron, the Fulton
County elections director requesting an urgent and full forensic
investigation into the November 3, 2020, election. I'm asking the
city to examine the new state election law, SB202, to see how we
could run our own elections entirely moving forward.
Stakeholders have already signed up in Fulton County and are
willing to volunteer, train, and work the polls in Milton in order to
have a cost effective, accurate, secure and safe election. The cost to
the city of Milton currently to run our next election would be around
$85,000.00. We have 28,605 registered voters as of 3/21/21. A
runoff, um, would cost our city another $70,000.00, which would
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end up being over $155,000.00. If we were to do our own elections,
we would be able to save considerable money. We would move to
paper ballots, um, as the preferred method of voting.
And like I said, we, um — we normally have under 5,000, um, voting
in the city during municipal elections. Two cities in Fulton County,
Palmetto and Chattahoochee Hills have been conducting their own
elections by paper ballots for years — for years. Um, an estimated
cost summary, which I have sent all of — all of you, I'm not sure if
you all received it. Early voting would cost us around $23,940.00.
Voting day would be $14,210.00. The cost of the ballots, which we
went to the printer from Palmetto and, um, Chattahoochee Hills and
they gave us an estimate for their ballots to do our ballots. And we
came up with a cost for absentee and provisional ballots of
$16,115.00.
So, a total estimate, for example, for 29,000 people who vote in
Milton, for us to run it would be around $54,000.00 — $54,000.00.
That's a savings of over $30,000.00. So, if we did this every year,
um, the savings would be significant. And, again, that's for 29,000
people. We're talking about municipal elections of only less than
5,000 people. So, the savings would be significantly greater. There
are other costs involved, which might be insurance equipment rental
for voting booths or partitions, rental of nonpublic spaces such as
churches, and possibly down the road for a presidential election, we
might do a purchase of commercial scanners for midterm or
presidential elections.
In closing, I don't think we should just do what we've normally done
because we have Fulton County that is under the spotlight for a lot
of errors in our elections. There are ongoing investigations. Every
day, there's more coming out.
City Clerk: One minute warning.
Ms. Cauley: So, I encourage the City Council to pursue and consider local control
over our elections. In addition to conducting our elections during
state and presidential years, the city would save the stakeholders
tens of thousands of dollars. And most importantly, we will return
trust and integrity to the elections held in our town. So, I think a lot
of people don't even realize that if they voted out of the Milton
Library in January, their vote didn't count that day. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Please call the next speaker.
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City Clerk: The next commenter is Karen Dubin. Please come to the podium.
Ms. Dubin: Hi, my name is Karen Dubin. I live at 200 Davis Glen Court. Uh,
I'm going to piggyback a little bit on what Lisa said because the two
of us did this research together. I don't know how much everybody
here knows about regular poll watching, poll voting, or anything.
So, I'm a poll — I'm a poll worker at Alpharetta. So, when I go in
that day, I'm there all day. At the end of the day, we have a runner
that takes the little flash drives. They take it over to Roswell and we
take the rest of our ballots and everything over there. When we drop
everything off at Roswell, there is no chain of custody.
I don't know where those ballots go, who gets them, where they go.
It seems like every time, there's a different place. So, after the last
election, I did look into this and I think it is very feasible, since we
already have over 100 people that would volunteer to work the early
election in different locations throughout the city of Milton. With
that being said, the cost effect and everything else would be a lot
better and to, I guess to really say it, I'm not sure how many people,
Happy Faces is the personnel agency that runs our early election.
Their contract was just renewed. With all the issues that we have
with Happy Faces, I think that would eliminate all our locations.
We wouldn't have those temporary people from there to take care
of these elections. So, I'm suggesting that you look into this.
Palmetto City and Chattahoochee Hills has been doing it for years.
They don't seem to have any problems with transparency. And their
residents seem to be very happy with it. So, I'd like you to consider
that. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. I would — would like to ask though of you could hold
the applause. Just if — if you listened to our rules, we — we ask that
you hold the applause until — until the end. But, uh, I appreciate the
— the spirit there. Do you have another —
City Clerk: We do, Mayor.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay.
City Clerk: I'd like to call Judy Burds to the podium.
Ms. Burds: Judy Burds, 1165 Bream Drive here in Milton, Georgia. I also would
like to see the city of Milton conduct its own elections, especially in
this upcoming election in the fall and not contract with Fulton
County. I had, during COVID, plenty of time and listened to many
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
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of the Fulton County Board of Elections things and was
underwhelmed by their, um, capabilities and competence and ability
to answer the questions. And I think we could do a much better job.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Thank you.
City Clerk: Next, Mayor, I'd like to call Mr. Kevin Crow to the podium.
Mr. Crow: Kevin Crow, 1153 Breen Drive, Milton, Georgia. Um, I'm
requesting you deny, uh, this proposal for obvious reasons as
previously stated. Um, the failure by Fulton County has been well
documented. Uh, and now, even our embattled Secretary of State
has even has very little competence in Fulton County and that's been
made public. Um, the specific failures here in Milton, as previously
stated, are completely unacceptable and should be unacceptable to
you as well. Uh, the recent agreement by Fulton County, uh, with
Happy Faces, a partisan volunteer group is beyond problematic
when it comes to elections.
Um, the excuse of not having enough time, uh, to prepare for this
election, uh, would show a lack of concern of our most basic right
and inability to perform, uh, your basic job of — of government
responsibility. Any of these concerns should have been not
surprising to this council as of today but should have already started
planning back in November when we had those 600 plus votes not
counted on the day of the election. So, approval of this agreement
would be the disservice to the citizens of the city. And I'm asking
you to deny this request. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Tammy?
City Clerk: I'd like to next call Ms. Cindy Qualtire to the podium.
Ms. Qualtire: Good evening. My name is Qualtire. I live at 350 Majestic Cove.
And I want to thank the, um, city council members, my friends and
neighbors that are here tonight. My public statement is about the
agenda item concerning Fulton County managing city of Milton
elections. I am adamantly opposed to having Fulton County engage
in our elections in any way. The company hired to assist with Fulton
County staffing elections is Happy Faces. Recently, Happy Faces
had their contract renewed by Fulton County. Happy Faces is a
partisan organization with ties to Stacy Abrams.
I had my vote taken from me during the presidential election. I hold
a valid voter registration card. But after I voted, I checked the
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Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
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Secretary of State web page and I no longer appear as a registered
voter. When I called the fraud line, I was told I got caught up in the
glitch that night of the election. That is completely unacceptable.
How many others had their vote taken from them and don't even
know it? What about the people at the Milton Library who had their
votes taken from them? The city of Milton needs to manage and staff
their own elections and resources to ensure the election process
integrity.
Didn't we become a city to manage our own affairs? The buck stops
here at the Milton City Council, not the Fulton County Board of
Elections. I urge each councilmember to provide each citizen in the
city of Fulton an election with fairness and integrity and not pass the
buck to Fulton County. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy?
City Clerk: Next, I'd like to call Mr. Brandon Beach to the podium.
Mr. Beach: Brandon Beach, 3100 Briarfield. Mayor and Council, thank you all
for your service. Thank you for what you do. Thank you for allowing
me to represent you in the senate. I just wanted to come — I'm not
trying to, uh, ask you to do either way but I would just like to point
out a few facts. Uh, this year, we had 80 election bills come before
the general assembly. We had problems in this last election. But
when you look at this election, it didn't just start in Fulton County
here. I've been a resident of Fulton County for 27 years. And on
their best day, Fulton County elections is incompetent.
They do not know how to run an election. Uh, we wait until 2:00 in
the morning to get results when — where there's two city council
races and a bond referendum and that's unacceptable. Um, I will tell
you, and it won't help you for this election because this election is
this year, uh, Burt Jones and I are sponsoring a bill, Senate Bill 233,
that will allow counties and municipalities to do their own elections
and not use the dominion machines and go give them the option of
a paper ballot. So, I would just ask you to maybe look at that in the
future if you want to do some kind of task force to look at how you
could take elections into your own hands.
One, from a cost savings but more importantly, to make sure that
you get it right because you can do it better than Fulton County.
Thank you very much for what you do.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy, do we have any more?
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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City Clerk: I just have two more, Mayor, that I'll read into the record.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay.
City Clerk:. The first one is going to be from Ms. Kathleen Kenworthy. She's at
3505 Peacock Road. Um, she does not want to authorize Fulton
County to run the Milton City elections. Our final election comment
is from Mary Mayer. She's at 16070 Henderson Road. And she is in
opposition of the election.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. And is that all our public comment?
City Clerk: That's all.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I'll close the hearing and then, open it back up for any
questions to Ken or staff from Council. Do I have any? Carol?
CM Cookerly: Um, okay, so I heard, Lisa, that it was doable. But then, um,
Brandon, it sounded like a bill needed to be passed. Where are we
for this November?
Mr. Beach: That bill will not help out with this.
CM Cookerly: Right.
Mr. Beach: Because we don't go back in session until January. We're in the
second year of a biennial. And we can pass it next year for future
elections to give you those opportunities as a municipality. But it
will not — I didn't know tonight that this was the November
elections. I thought this was for the 2022 elections. But —
CM Cookerly: But right, the question is whether we can have the opportunity
without the bill.
Mr. Beach: You have to use the dominion machines.
CM Cookerly: So, we could still — we could still manage our own election but it
would be with the dominion machines.
Mr. Beach: Right.
Mayor Lockwood: Correct.
CM Cookerly: And then, after this bill, if it passes, we can manage our own
elections without the dominion machines. Got it.
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Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
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Mr. Beach: That's what our bill will be. Yes.
CM Cookerly: And then, do we have the wherewithal to pull it together for this
November?
Mr. Beach: Uh, you do not.
CM Cookerly: No, I'm asking our —
Mr. Jarrard: Right. I mean, obviously, we'll have to defer to the city manager
but I do think you've got — it looks to me like you probably got
qualifying starting in August. Um, it's going to be a challenge for
the election superintendent to pull off an election by November.
Mayor Lockwood: Uh, yeah, I would say — first off, I pretty much, in general, agree
with all the public comment on this. Um, I'd be willing to think
probably the majority of the Council feels the same way. My biggest
concern is time constraint. And for — for this, we have about three
months, I think, before this election starts. But even if that's the case,
I certainly would support, um, and I've talked to our city attorney
and our city manager who said they're willing to see what it would
take and — and, uh, all that if the council wants to go forward with
that in the future.
So, I would, certainly, recommend, um, you know, even if we go
forward with this contract one more time for this new members
election that, uh, we would — I would like to direct, if Council agrees,
our staff to look in and work with the citizens that have spoken and
others that, uh — um, and — and also Fulton County that, uh, to move
forward in a different direction next year. But, uh, that's my opinion
on that. Paul?
CM Moore: Um, thanks, Joe. I — I would echo your comments. I'm in full support
of a thorough review to make sure that we restore, um, election
integrity, um, at all — at all levels and, uh, um, I think that it — that
it's time for change. Fulton County has disappointed us forever. And
I think it's, uh, appropriate to pick another path as soon as one is
available to us. I pose this, um, question to, um, Council as well as
the city manager. At this point, this evening, I'm assuming you made
measure of what we have before us. And is it your recommendation
because of your measure that we go forward currently with the plan
with the opportunity in future elections to make that change?
Or are you — do you have a confidence that we can be nimble enough
to accommodate the request or change by the community this
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
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evening?
Mr. Krokof£ That's a big question. Um, I don't know what it takes to run a
municipal election. But if it's the direction of the Council, I will do
everything in my power to make it happen.
Mayor Lockwood: The value in — uh, uh, is there enough timeline for us to take into
consideration the expressed wishes of the community this evening,
the express wishes of some of the members of Council tonight to —
can we defer this for until our next meeting? Is — is a couple of
weeks enough time to make measure? Or are we already behind the
eight ball?
Mr. Jarrard: Well, I think it is going to be difficult — I think it is going to be
difficult to turn, uh, this quickly and pull off this municipal election
by using your own municipal superintendent. I think a better
approach for the Council would be to set in place the wheels to do
your own elections for the 2022 election cycle. But, again, I'm — I'm
your attorney. I'm not your manager. And if that — if that can be
done quicker, uh, that's fine. There's a lot of scrutiny on elections,
obviously, in all quarters. And best intentions notwithstanding, we
don't want to mess one up worse.
Mayor Lockwood: And — and — and, again, I'll — I'll reiterate. I'm, certainly, 100% in
support of this. But, you know, my concern is right now, we're
behind the eight ball. Um, I know the county is. But that doesn't
surprise anyone. Um, but, uh, uh, without a plan — without a firm
plan to vote on also tonight, I'd be concerned about that. Peyton?
CM Jamison: Uh, Mayor, I mean, we did become the city for local — um, more —
more local control. And I fully support it for 2022 for sure. I just
want to make sure we get it right. I mean, the last thing I want to do
is — we have qualifying in less than 30 days. And the last thing I
want to do is mess up an municipal election and then, all of a sudden,
we're on the front page of the paper. So, I think it's important that
we get it done right. I'm fully in support of more — more local
control. And I fully support it.
CM Cookerly: Can I ask one more question?
Mayor Lockwood: Carol?
CM Cookerly: Ken, can we do a hybrid whereas if we keep it intact just to get
through this municipal election, can we have extra oversight of our
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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folks, um, who may tag onto the process so that we have more
confidence that things are done correctly?
Mr. Jarrard: In — in theory, that would be possible. Are you talking about sort of
like poll watchers and etc.?
CM Cookerly: Yeah.
Mr. Jarrard: Yeah. But I mean, I — I will concede that that's going to involve a
degree of working with Fulton County and the Board of Elections.
And I'm not sure it's going to be obtainable because what I'm
hearing is wanted and desired is truly local control over these
elections. I fully get that. And I tend to think that once you — sort of
a binary decision. Once you go that way, that's the way we need to
go completely and sort — sort of distance ourselves entirely from
Fulton County. I think that's the objective that's being discussed
here. And that's what it sounds to me like the Council — where the
Council wants to go and just wants to do it carefully and judicially
is what I'm hearing.
CM Bentley: I just have a comment. I had a conversation with Bob Ellis today
about the importance of our citizens that are here and have concerns
of being, um, involved in the elections. And I think he is moving
forward. And I offered any support I could give and I know this
council could give for you all that are here and feel strongly about
this to become involved at any level. So, I'm happy to, um, bring
Bob, you know, in to do that. He's fully vested in that.
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah. I will also reiterate. I had the same conversation with — with
Bob, too. Joe?
CM Longoria: Yeah. I mean, obviously, it's, uh — it's interesting to understand the
complexities of — of what happened in 2020. I don't know, um, uh.
We need to be careful in terms of how we interpret — interpret the
detail of all of that. But I would agree with everybody that I've never
felt like we got great service from Fulton County when it came to
running our elections. I've run for office three times and I won all
three times. So, some of me says that they did a great job. But aside
from that, these kinds of things, you never know exactly how much
time, energy, and effort it takes to get them implemented.
And so, the only thing that I would say is we ought to really take a
look and see if there is something that can be done this year because
I would hate to start down this road and realize in January, oh, we
could have gotten that done for the last year and then, have missed
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
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the opportunity. So, the only thing —
Mayor Lockwood: [Inaudible] [00:48:03].
CM Longoria: -- I would have to say — the only thing I wanted to say was, you
know, if we could, actually, take a look at, you know, what might
be involved and see if there's a chance. But, uh, know that we need
to get the ball rolling for 2022 regardless, so.
Mayor Lockwood: I agree. Um, okay, I think Councilmember Mohrig wanted to say
something.
City Clerk: Correct, yes. He'd like to make a comment.
CM Mohrig: Okay, thanks. Uh, I'd echo what, um, Joe Longoria just said. I think
we need to take a look at it before we say we can't do it and — and
see, I guess, if — if Council agrees with this, my suggestion is let's
take a look at it not — let's not just approve this tonight. I think we've
got people, uh, in our community that have been involved with votes
in the past that would be willing to jump in and take a look at it,
maybe work with your staff. And then, let's come back with an
assessment to say what are all the — can we, actually, do this this
year. So, I — I would say before we just say hey, we can't do it, it's
too short, let's make an assessment of what it would take to do it.
And the second item is I noticed when I read the contract, we have
a rate in there that is set just for municipal elections. This election
we also are going to have a countywide election on the TSPLOST,
a county election or vote countywide. So, they would have to stand
up the election, even if we didn't have the municipal election. I
guess what I'd ask staff to do in the meantime is, actually, go back
and talk to Fulton County because I don't think we should have our
— our citizens bear the full costs as if we're just running a municipal
election. They would have to staff part of this just for the TSPLOST.
So, those are the two comments that I have.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Peyton?
CM Jamison: I've just got one question. So, when is the drop dead — dead —
deadline for this?
Mr. Jarrard: What I would tell you, Councilmember Jamison, is if we're going to
go the route to see if we can pull of a municipal election in 2021 by
November then, we need to set up some special called meetings of
this. And staff needs to be given an all hands on deck because we've
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 23 of 155
got no time. Was your question about when do we have to let Fulton
County know?
CM Jamison: Well, that was my — I was — when is the — that was my follow up.
When is that?
Mr. Jarrard: Well, what I'm hearing right now is there's two issues. l.)
Councilmember Mohrig is concerned about the negotiated rate in
the IGA. That — that's simply a business deal. But we need to go
back to the Fulton County Board of Elections and say we don't like
your price tag. You've got a countywide election anyway. Don't
make us pay this amount. Make us pay something less than that.
They may say no. All right. But the other issue I'm hearing is — is
we want to look at discarding this deal all together and doing it
ourselves. That's another deal. That's another — that's an issue of a
different degree.
So, I'm simply suggesting to you what is the drop dead date. We
probably could get away with not signing the IGA for one more
council meeting if that's — if that's the concern. But if we're talking
about hiring a municipal election superintendent otherwise doing
our own election that may necessitate some special called meetings
of the council.
CM Longoria: So, if we deferred — if we deferred the decision until our next regular
meeting, which would be the first meeting of August, is that past a
deadline for Fulton County?
Mayor Lockwood: Tammy, do you know?
City Clerk: Well, qualifying [inaudible] [00:51:38] again 8/17. So, we — we
will be under — under the gun on the timeline.
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah. I don't know the exact answer. I do know in conversations
that with Fulton County, of course, no surprise, they were behind
the ball as it is right now. Um, and if anybody went to watch their
meeting, you could tell that. Um, and I do know they're wanting the
answer ASAP. Every day, they're calling to know if we've — you
know, if we've passed this or not. So, I don't know if that's — you
know, if they're just pushing or not. But, uh, um, it doesn't sound
like, just in conversations that, you know, hey, you can have another
month or whatever.
But, uh, I don't know the answer to that.
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
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CM Jamison: Well, my — my only issue I'm having here is we — we defer it and
we go through the motion and maybe we can see if we can make it
work. Um, I want to know that timeframe is to where Fulton County
says oh, too late. And now, all of a sudden, we don't have all of our
ducks in a row.
Mr. Jarrard: It's a problem. That — that can be knowable. I mean, we can pick up
the phone and call them tomorrow and say what is your drop date
where you absolutely will not conduct our election. And we can
know that. And if it's the day after tomorrow, we can then hold a
special called meeting and come in and approve this thing. So, I
mean, this is - this is probably doable. I'm simply suggesting the
comments I'm hearing we're sort of at a crossroads then. We're
either negotiating under this IGA or we're throwing this IGA away.
CM Moore: We've been down the negotiation route before with Fulton County.
CM Cookerly: Yeah. I — I don't think that's Job 1. I think Job 1 is for you all to
decide whether it's doable. And I would think at your expertise
level, you could perhaps give us some feedback. And — and I realize,
you know, it's kind of like whack -a -mole. There are so many things
that staff has that we're on deadlines. This is incredibly important.
And I just — I think it's very interesting and — and I'm hopeful but
also want to be realistic. But I just think if — if you all could do what
you think is necessary to see if it's truly doable, it does have to be a
win for us though. We — we can't mess this up first time up.
I mean, we — we cannot get this wrong.
CM Longoria: So, the date of — the date of — that qualifying starts is when again?
CM Jamison: 8/17 I think she said.
City Clerk: 8/17. August 17 through August 19.
CM Mohrig: Just a — a quick — a quick clarification, Tammy, isn't qualification —
isn't that locally handled? That, basically, is going to tell us who is
going to be on the ballot. But that doesn't involve Fulton County.
That would be a separate thing that we do as a city. And then, we
feed that to whoever is going to administer the — the election.
City Clerk: That is correct, Councilmember Mohrig.
CM Mohrig: Okay.
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Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
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CM Longoria: But I think we need to get somebody engaged to run the election
before that happens.
City Clerk: Correct.
CM Mohrig: Oh, well, yeah. And I think, again, that's where I'd — I'd ask staff if
the council agrees with it, I'm in favor of waiting at least until — put
it off and defer until next meeting — council meeting so we could,
actually, take a look at it and see what all is involved and is it even
possible to do effectively.
CM Jamison: Yeah. I think if we can take some quick action to, uh, make that
assessment, Steve, and — and, uh, Ken, sign me up. I'm happy to be
available for those meetings.
CM Mohrig: I would also.
CM Cookerly: So, may I make a motion we defer this?
CM Moore: That's my — are we deferring it to the next meet — or is there a special
called meeting?
CM Cookerly: Or a special called or —
CM Mohrig: No.
Mr. Krokoff. We'll — we'll — we'll get on with Fulton County tomorrow, find out
what the drop date dead is. I'll inform you all and if we can, we'll
go from there.
CM Cookerly: Okay.
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah. That's my only concern. We don't know what the — the
answer is going to be yet before we make this decision. But to — to
Steve's point, you know, maybe the decision — you got — you have
until next meeting. But I would doubt it so we'll probably need to
have a special called —
CM Longoria: So, let's table this and then, whatever the next meeting is we can
pick it up?
Mr. Jarrard: I was going to ask Councilmember Cookerly. I think the — the right
call is is to defer it to the next regular meeting with the
understanding that it may be on a sooner special called agenda, uh,
if — if — if warranted just to make sure the citizens understand there
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 26 of 155
is some flexibility in that hard date.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Then, I guess we'll find —
CM Mohrig: That works.
Mayor Lockwood: -- the answer as to whether we may have to come back and, you
know, make a call to approve this or not if we're able to if — if Fulton
County —
CM Cookerly: And where — what's the date of the next special — I mean, our — our
next regular one?
City Clerk: August 2.
CM Cookerly: August 2? Okay. Are you ready?
CM Longoria: We're going to use the language the next meeting of council.
City Clerk: Which is August — August 2, yeah.
Mr. Jarrard: Or special meeting.
CM Cookerly: Okay. Mayor and Council, I move that we defer consideration of
ordinance of the City Council authorized Fulton County to conduct
the 2021 election for our next regularly scheduled meeting on
August 2 or whether we have a special called meeting. That is
Agenda Item No. 21-200.
CM Jamison: Second.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I have a motion as read from Councilmember Cookerly, uh,
with a second from Councilmember Jamison. All in favor, please
say aye?
Councilmembers: Aye.
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Cookerly moved to defer Agenda Item No.
21-200 to the next City Council Meeting (8/02/2021) unless a Special Called
Meeting is required for this item. Councilmember Jamison seconded the motion.
The motion passed (7-0).
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Mayor Lockwood: Any opposed? That's unanimous. All right. Thank you. Okay.
Tonight, we don't have any items under reports and presentations.
The first presentation — or any public hearing. So, we'll move on to
our zoning agenda. Um, Tammy, if you'll please read the zoning
rules and then, sound the first item.
City Clerk: Thank you, Mayor. When the Mayor and City Council consider a
zoning agenda, those items include rezoning petitions,
modifications of zoning, use permits, and associate concurrent
variances in addition to ordinances, resolutions, and text
amendments. I would like to acquaint you with some of the rules
and procedures for this meeting, which includes a zoning agenda.
The applicant and all those speaking in support of an application will
be allowed a total of 10 minutes to present the petition. The
opposition will also be allowed a total of 10 minutes to present its
position.
If time remains, the opposition will be allowed to rebut. The
applicant may choose to save some time for rebuttal following the
presentation by the opposition. Since the burden of proof is upon the
applicant, the applicant will be allowed to make closing remarks
provided time remains within the allotted time. Those speak — called
to speak will be taken in the order that speaker cards were received
by the city clerk prior to beginning of tonight's meeting. All
speakers will identify themselves by name, address, and
organization if applicable before beginning their presentation.
The Planning Commission has heard the rezoning agenda items and
the recommendations have been forward to the Mayor and City
Council for consideration and disposition. The applicant shall not
submit material to the Council during this meeting unless requested
to do so. All material that you wish to be reviewed by the Council
in consideration of your application should have already been
submitted to the Community Development Department and is
included in the normal distribution of packages to the Council.
When an opponent of a rezoning action has made within two years
immediately preceding the filing of the rezoning action being
opposed can paying contributions aggregating $250.00 or more to a
local government official of the local government, which will
consider the application, it shall be the duty of the opponent to file
a disclosure with the governing authority of the respective local
government at least five days prior to Planning Commission
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 27 of 155
ZONING AGENDA
Mayor Lockwood: Any opposed? That's unanimous. All right. Thank you. Okay.
Tonight, we don't have any items under reports and presentations.
The first presentation — or any public hearing. So, we'll move on to
our zoning agenda. Um, Tammy, if you'll please read the zoning
rules and then, sound the first item.
City Clerk: Thank you, Mayor. When the Mayor and City Council consider a
zoning agenda, those items include rezoning petitions,
modifications of zoning, use permits, and associate concurrent
variances in addition to ordinances, resolutions, and text
amendments. I would like to acquaint you with some of the rules
and procedures for this meeting, which includes a zoning agenda.
The applicant and all those speaking in support of an application will
be allowed a total of 10 minutes to present the petition. The
opposition will also be allowed a total of 10 minutes to present its
position.
If time remains, the opposition will be allowed to rebut. The
applicant may choose to save some time for rebuttal following the
presentation by the opposition. Since the burden of proof is upon the
applicant, the applicant will be allowed to make closing remarks
provided time remains within the allotted time. Those speak — called
to speak will be taken in the order that speaker cards were received
by the city clerk prior to beginning of tonight's meeting. All
speakers will identify themselves by name, address, and
organization if applicable before beginning their presentation.
The Planning Commission has heard the rezoning agenda items and
the recommendations have been forward to the Mayor and City
Council for consideration and disposition. The applicant shall not
submit material to the Council during this meeting unless requested
to do so. All material that you wish to be reviewed by the Council
in consideration of your application should have already been
submitted to the Community Development Department and is
included in the normal distribution of packages to the Council.
When an opponent of a rezoning action has made within two years
immediately preceding the filing of the rezoning action being
opposed can paying contributions aggregating $250.00 or more to a
local government official of the local government, which will
consider the application, it shall be the duty of the opponent to file
a disclosure with the governing authority of the respective local
government at least five days prior to Planning Commission
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Monday, July 19, 2021
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meeting. A violation of relevant statute — state statute constitutes a
misdemeanor.
Therefore, if you have contributed $250.00 or more to a council
member and you have not filed a disclosure prior to the Planning
Commission meeting, the city attorney strongly suggests that you
have someone else speak for your point of view. Our first zoning
item this evening is consideration of U21-OINC21-03 is at 2105
Bethany Way containing multiple parcels for a total of 18.07 acres
by the PFAJ Revocable Trust dated 2/17/2019 to request a use
permit for agricultural related activities. It's Section 64-1797 and a
two-part concurrent variance.
The first, to allow the existing parking areas with pavilion, horse
arenas, and driveways within the 100 foot activity setback is Section
64-1797D. The second to allow the structures housing animals to be
located 100 feet off of a property - I'm sorry. One hundred feet of a
property line. It's Section 64-1797E. It is Agenda Item No. 21-160.
Ms. Robyn MacDonald.
Ms. MacDonald: Okay. We'll try again. So, good evening, Mayor and City Council.
So, um, I'm here to present staff's, uh, recommendations for this
item. Um, as our Madam City Clerk has already, um, read into the
record, it is an application by the PFAJ Revocable Trust dated
2/7/19. And, um, the applicant is represented by Ellen Smith of
Parker, Poe, and Bernstein. Um, as stated as well, it's 18.027 acres.
It includes multiple parcels and the existing uses contain a single
family residence, equestrian facility, winery, and other accessory
structures.
Again, uh, a request for a two part concurrent variance and we'll get
into that as we go through, uh, the presentation. Uh, this is a location
map. You all know where it is. It's on the, uh, southwest quadrant
of Bethany Way and Hopewell Road. And as I said before, uh, it
contains multiple parcels. Uh, this is the incredibly exciting zoning
map, um, of everything around it and itself is zoned AGI, so. Um,
this is the future land use map. Um, this beige color is AEE,
Agricultural Equestrian and Estate Residential. Uh, this is the
original site plan that was submitted January 25, 2021. And then,
um, subsequently on May 25, the applicant, uh, submitted a revised
site plan.
Um, and as we go through, um, I can talk about it more specifically.
So, again, it is zoned AGI totaling 18.027 acres. And, uh, just to
note, the applicant recently purchased 13760 Hopewell Road, uh, in
1
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which the city of Milton will be constructing a portion of the new
roundabout at Hopewell Road and Bethany Bend. And that parcel
is, uh, within this, uh, site plan that was before you. Um, again, it,
uh, contains a single family residence with a detached garage, an
additional garage with a residence, a small cemetery, swimming
pool, small wood pavilion used for entertaining, various barns, two
uncovered horse arenas, vineyards, and other smaller accessory
structures, um, on the property.
Uh, the Painted Horse Winery currently operates on the site, which
is allowed by right within the AGI zoning district. There is a tasting
room currently located within the basement of the house, um, as well
as areas on the lawn behind the house to sit and listen to background
music. There are vineyards located on the property as well. Uh,
based on the applicant's, uh, letter of intent, Ms. Pamela Jackson
and her family acquired the first tracks of the property in 1991. In
1996, equine barns were built and horses were moved in. And in
2003, the farm at Pamelot, Inc., was formally incorporated.
According to the applicant, starting in 1997, the farm started hosting
a variety of uses and events, including equine breeding, boarding,
and training, animal husbandry, an annual Easter egg hunt, ticketed
live music events, and various corporate events and weddings at the
property, including using valet services as needed. Ms. Jackson
states that these uses began in 2002 and continuously since then.
Um, further, the applicant states that the farm has hosted summer
camp as a weeklong day camp for children, birthday parties, and
other Boys and Girls Scout types of events.
There have been a variety of ancillary uses to the farm including
various fruit tree and apiary agricultural uses historically for more
than 20 years. In 2018, according to Ms. Jackson, she planted her
first vineyards. And in 2019, the farm became licensed as the city's
and Fulton County's first farm winery. The applicant states that an
additional 4 acres of vineyards are being added this year. During the
summer and fall of 2020, the city received various complaints
regarding an increased number of visitors to the site, issues with off
premise parking, and loud music coming from the property. The city
asked to meet with Ms. Jackson and her legal counsel to discuss their
programming on the property.
The city, including the community development director, zoning
manager, and city attorney met with Ms. Jackson and Ms. Smith, her
legal counsel, three times total in November and December of 2020.
At that time, the applicant asserted that the activities that she was
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Monday, July 19, 2021
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holding were uses that were "grandfathered" or potentially legally
nonconforming uses and that she did not need use permits to bring
the variety of uses in compliance with the city's zoning ordinance.
As stated in the applicant's letter of intent for these subsequent
requests or applications, these applications are being filed in good
faith by Ms. Jackson to further resolution of disputes between Ms.
Jackson and the city regarding permitted and potentially legally
nonconforming uses of the property. These are being submitted
without waiver by Ms. Jackson of her rights, claims, interests, or
defenses with respect to prior ongoing or future events. Uses or
operations at or — or on the property and without admission by owner
of the need for such permits or variances. On April 21, um, 2021,
the applicant submitted a revised set of proposed conditions uses for
the agricultural related activities.
So, let me just go back a little bit. Um, after those meetings, uh, the
applicant and, um — had agreed to go ahead and submit, um, three
special use permits, uh, two of which are before you tonight. The
agricultural related activities and the rural event facility. At your last
meeting on June 7, you all, uh, withdrew, uh, per the applicant's
request, uh, the event, uh — event indoor/outdoor, uh, use permit.
Um, at the June 28 meeting — uh, so anyways, uh, at the June 28
meeting with the community and city staff, the applicant provided
building sketches, plans for temporary tasting room.
So, let me go back again. So, at the, um, June 7 meeting, I think that
you all discussed that you were willing to defer the item, uh, to this
date of July 19 to allow further discussion between the applicant and
the community, um, with city staff, uh, facilitating that process. So,
um, then, we get to June 28, which was the meeting that, uh, was
planned based upon, uh, those discussions on June 7. Um, and at that
meeting, the applicant provided, uh, building sketches/plans, uh, for
a temporary tasting room for one of the existing barns on the
property in order to close the existing tasting room located within
the basement of the house.
So, um, back, uh, the public involvement throughout this process.
Um, the CZIM meeting, community zoning information meeting,
was held on March 23 and the applicant was present, um, for this
meeting here at Milton City Hall and via Zoom. There were
approximately, um, eight members of the community who signed
the attendance sheet. There appeared to be more in attendance.
There were various, uh, issues that were raised.
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Among them were traffic caused by the various current events and
concern over the speed of existing traffic on Bethany Way, noise
coming from music at the winery impacting enjoyment of nearby
property owners, parking off site at the Bethany Oaks Subdivision
pool area, concerned with people leaving the venue intoxicated. Do
not mind the children related events like birthday parties, painting
horses, day camps, and equestrian related businesses. Um, the next
meeting, um, in the process was the design review board on April
13.
And the, uh, following comments were made, uh, by that board, uh,
stating the majority of members expressed supporting the existing
uses on the property, such as the winery, equestrian related uses,
children's activities but not to expand the uses as requested. Um,
part of the process of the use permit, um, is for the applicant to hold
its own public participation meeting, um, at, um — and staff is not
part of that. Um, they did hold it, um, on, uh, April 19 at their site
on Bethany Way. And there were 16 people in attendance that
signed the attendance sheet.
Their concerns were the following. Noise primarily during ticketed
live events, traffic congestion, off street parking at Bethany Oaks
Subdivision swimming pool. The response from the applicant was
indicated on the public participation report that we received, um, in
April 21 stating measure noise levels at events, propose conditions
to onsite parking, mitigate noise including additional limits on
allowable, um, decibels, hours of operation, frequency of events,
and numbers of ticketed attendees. Request on social media through
parking attendants and off duty police for onsite parking. Attendees
not to park offsite and coordinate with Bethany Oaks HOA.
So, on April 28, 2021, um, the City of Milton Planning Commission
recommended approval conditional of this, uh, use permit for, uh,
the agricultural related, uh, uh, events, um, and the two part
concurrent variance with the following conditions. There shall be no
more than a total of 25 attendees per day Monday through Friday
and no more than a total of 50 attendees on Saturday and Sunday for
camps, birthday parties, and educational events. And the next, uh,
condition they recommended was maximum continuous levels of 60
dba and a maximum peak sound level of 75 dba at property lines.
Music associated with the activities should only be allowed to be
acoustical. And as I referenced before on June 7, you all as the
Mayor and City Council, uh, deferred the item, um, to tonight. And
with a — a vote of five to two to allow the applicant to meet with the
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interested parties and city staff to discuss possible resolution of the
above requested use permits and associated concurrent variances.
Also, at the June 7 meeting, you all, um, voted to withdraw U21-
03VC2104 for the events indoor/outdoor in a vote of five to two.
So, on June 28, 2021, citizen appointed members of the community,
the applicant and her attorney and various city staff, including the
city attorney, participated in a meeting to work out various issues of
the requested use permit and associated farm winery at city hall.
Several outstanding issues were established by the city attorney after
a healthy discussion was held at the meeting. The applicant agreed
to address these issues for a possible future response from the
community. The applicant and her attorney submitted a response
with a supplement and amendment to applications, proposed
conditions, um, on July 8, 2021 to the city.
After a review of the responses and requests, the community
representatives did not anticipate an agreement with the applicant's
proposed conditions. With that, um, uh, I'm going to go on through
with the city staff comments on the requested use permit. The city
arborist states the canopy coverage calculations and any specimen
tree recompense will be calculated when they submit for the land
disturbance permit. The proposed parking locations do appear to
involve tree removal but appears not to be to be any specimen trees
involved. Based on the size of the parcel prior to a combination plat,
the canopy coverage requirement will be 25%.
This is based on any parcels that are 3 acres or larger, uh, that was,
uh, within the tree canopy, uh, ordinance. The development engineer
states storm water runoff from all new impervious surfaces created
by the construction of new buildings, graveled parking areas, and
miscellaneous structures may be managed by storm water facilities
located either within the parcel boundaries or shared facility offsite.
Uh, the fire marshal reviewed, um, the site plan. At that point in
time, he, um, reviewed the original one with a 12,000 square foot
structure. Now, um, it is being proposed as 8,000 square foot for the
wine tasting room and the production of the wine.
And he had several different, um, comments including hydrant
required within 100 feet of remote FDC location. There must be a
hydrant within 600 feet of the proposed structure, show existing and
proposed, if needed, hydrants, flow test required at LDP. Fire access
road shall extend to 150 feet of all portions of the structure. ADA
accessibility is required. Gravel drive, um, minimum width is 24
foot. Uh, 20 to 24 is okay with fire lane signage every 50 feet and
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on both sides of the road. Uh, gate width 15 foot minimum with
knob switch access.
Auto turn apparatus from Bethany Bend to proposed structure show
accessible spaces in close proximity to proposed structure.
Incorporate a Fire Department turnaround since the new entrance
does not appear to fully connect with Bethany Way entrance —
entrance. Plan subject to an in depth review at the time of application
of the LDP. So, now, it's time for me to take a little break before I
start coughing. In regards to transportation, site improvements,
including driveway locations, fencing, and storm water pond are to
be coordinated with the underway, uh, Hopewell Road at Bethany
Bend Way intersection improvement project.
The director of public works may determine that a traffic study will
be required based on traffic generated by the site impacts, the
operations of Bethany Way or Hopewell Road. In regards to the
environmental site analysis, uh, the report was completed on the site.
There's a stream on the property, which identifies the appropriate
state and city buffers. Further, there are no flood plains, steep slopes,
archeological/historical sites, endangered vegetation or wildlife on
the site. The applicant has not submitted a tree survey but will be
required to meet the tree canopy ordinance at the time of LDP.
So, now, we're going to move into, uh, the use permit considerations
for this specific request. Um, the zoning ordinance requires that all
use permits, um, in the interest, uh, review certain items. And so,
we're going to go through those, um, eight or so items that are
required to be reviewed. The first one is whether the proposed use
is consistent with the land use or economic development plans
adopted by the Mayor and City Council. The proposed development
is within the agricultural equestrian estate residential land use
category on the city of Milton 2035 comprehensive plan map
contained in the plan update 2016.
The proposed use permit for agricultural related activities is
permitted in AGI. Although the proposed use permit is consistent
with the land use plan but when considering it concurrently with the
already by use of the farm winery and the equestrian related activity
such as riding lessons and boarding of horses as well as a request of
a rural event facility for a maximum of 110 days Monday through
Saturday, the proposed agricultural activities use permit is not
consistent with the following plan objectives. We will seek
opportunity to provide pleasant, accessible, public gathering places
and parks throughout the community.
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We will encourage development that is sensitive to the overall
setting of the community and will contribute to our community
sense of place. 2.) Is compatibility with land uses and zoning
districts in the vicinity of the property for which the use permit is
proposed. Um, so, basically, just looking around what is around the
existing, um, proposed, uh, development. To the north and northeast
are large lots developed with single family residences as well as
equestrian related facilities. Staff notes that a festival event
indoor/outdoor was approved at 13895 Hopewell Road to be used as
a wedding facility in 2014 but has not operated in that capacity.
To the east are scattered single family residences and the Bethany
Oaks Subdivision zoned AGI and north part subdivision. To the
south are large lots developed with single family residences and
equestrian related facilities. To the southwest is Cooper Sandy
Subdivision zoned AGI developed with single family residences.
To the west are large lots developed with single family residences
and equestrian related facilities zoned AGI.
Based on these surrounding uses, which include single family
residences, adjacent and nearby, the proposed agricultural related
activities use permit is not compatible with surrounding land uses
since it would operate concurrently with the by right uses of the farm
winery and the equestrian related activities, including riding lessons,
boarding of horses, as well as the request of a rural event facility for
a maximum of 100 attendees per event every day of the week. The
applicant has included a list of issue uses that they agree that shall
not occur on the property, which include exotic animals, kennels, or
no overnight, uh, camps or events.
These will be included in a set of conditions if the Mayor and City
Council choose to approve the request. 3.) Um, the proposed use
does not appear — does appear to violate ordinances and regulations
governing land development. And, uh, the proposed use effect on
the traffic flow, vehicular and pedestrian, along adjoining streets is
impacted by not only the proposed use but the other by right
activities of the farm winery. Equestrian related activities, including
riding lessons, boarding of horses, as well as the request of a rural
event facility for a maximum of 100 attendees per event every day
of the week.
All of these activities, collectively, will cause a burden on the
adjacent and nearby streets at various times and days of the week.
The location and number of off street parking spaces. The locations
are scattered around the approximate 18 acres. There are 12 spaces
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near the western portion of the site, an additional 6 spaces to the
north of the 12. Based on aerials, the six spaces appear to be where
trees would be cut based on the overall tree canopy coverage. It
would not compact — impact the overall site if they were located
there.
In addition, there are 37 spaces located on the north, central, and
eastern portion of the site of which portions of these spaces are
located within the required 100 foot setback for activity areas, which
includes parking. It appears that there is sufficient room to relocate
the spaces that are within the 100 foot setback as required in Section
64-1797(2)D. Staff notes that the agricultural related activities use
permit does not have a specific off street parking requirement. But
staff will use the same requirement as a rural event facility use
permit, which requires one space for 2.5 attendees.
The applicant has agreed, uh, to the Planning Commission's
recommended condition that the maximum number of attendees
may be 50 on Saturday and Sundays and, therefore, 20 parking
spaces will be required. In addition, there are two other use — there
are only one other use permit, uh, being considered as well as the
existing winery, which may require that parking be provided for
these other uses concurrently. The by right activities, such as the
farm winery that concurrent — that currently operates during the
following days and times, Thursdays 1:00 to 6:00 p.m., Friday and
Saturday 1:00 to 8:00 p.m., and Sunday 1:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.
And the Pamelot Farm that operates riding lessons and boarding
requires sufficient parking for their attendees. In addition, there is
one additional use permit being requested that if approved may
operate concurrently during the above activities, which requires
additional parking and would be a burden on the site. Lastly, based
on the submitted site plan, it is difficult to determine where attendees
can park, especially in those instances when several events may
occur at the same time. The amount and location of open space.
Although the site provides open space, since there is approximately
18 acres, including a stream that cuts through it and provides a
required 75 foot buffer on either side of the creek, as well as
pastures, vineyards, and other open spaces, the site is not large
enough in size to accommodate the proposed use as well as the other
uses by right mentioned and, um, the requested use permit for
overall event facility and not impact adjacent and nearby properties
in a negative manner.
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7.) The existing vegetation that is located on the property and, in
most places, located along or near its exterior property lines is not
sufficient to ameliorate noise, light, and activity from the proposed
use as well as collectively the other uses by right mentioned in the
requested use permit for a rural event facility. 8.) Hours and — sorry.
Hours and manner of operation. The applicant has proposed the
following days, times, and operations. Sunday through Saturday
8:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. for the agriculture related activities.
Although these times are less than the allowed per the standards of
the use permit, staff will recommend that a further reduction in hours
of operation occur on Sundays, which should be 10:00 a.m. to 7:00
p.m. on Sundays if the Mayor and City Council chooses to approve
the request. Outdoor lighting. The applicant has not indicated any
additional lighting on the site, except if it is required for life safety
and will comply with the night sky ordinance. Ingress and egress to
the property. There are three existing curb cuts on the property along
Bethany Way. The most western curb cut is located within the 100
foot activity area setback.
A future curb cut will be built by the city at the time that the new
roundabout is completed at Hopewell Road and Bethany Bend. As
mentioned above, when considering not only the request for the
agriculture related activities as well as the by right use of the farm
winery and equestrian related uses and other requested use permit
for rural event facility, the existing traffic on Bethany Way and
Hopewell Road may be negatively impacted depending on the
activities occurring at various times and days of the week of the site
- on the site.
Based on the evaluation of the above use permit consideration, staff
recommends denial of U21-01 for agricultural related activities.
Um, in regards to the site plan considerations, um, it is the intent of
this division to allow certain agriculture related activities with the
use permit in compliance with the development standards below to
preserve the nature of agricultural areas. Such areas shall include but
not be limited to petting zoo, educational tours, dude ranches,
picnicking, and pay fishing.
So, this is, um, a chart that outlines all the required standards for,
uh, this particular use permit. And on the left are the development
standards. And on the right are whether the, uh, uh, applicant meets
those requirements. And as you can see under D and E, um, no, they
do not and, therefore, would require a concurrent variance. So, the
first, uh, requested concurrent variance is to allow the existing
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parking areas, wood pavilion, horse arenas, and driveways within
the 100 foot activity setback. The site plan indicates, um, existing
driveways, parking spaces, barns, portions of horse arenas, and
small fenced in areas primarily along the eastern portion of the site
that are associated with equestrian uses.
Staff recommends denial of Part 1 of VC21-03, uh, to allow the
existing structures, uh, to remain as shown on the revised site plan
received by the Community Development Department on May 25,
2021, based on staff's recommendation that the proposed use permit
for agriculture related activities be denied. The second concurrent
variances, uh, for all structures, housing and animal, shall be setback
a minimum of 100 feet from all property lines. The site plan
indicates structures housing animals within the minimum 100 foot
setback on this site plan. They are small in size and located within
the eastern portion of the property.
Again, staff recommends denial of VC21-03 Part 2 to allow the
existing structures housing animals, uh, within the 100 foot setback
to remain as shown on the revised site plan, um, by the Community
Development Department on May 25, 2021, based on staff's
recommendation that the proposed use permit for agriculture related
activities be denied. The applicant submitted a revised set of
proposed condition uses for, uh, this use permit on April 21 as
outlined below. I won't go through each and every one of them but,
um, many of them have been discussed, uh, throughout this report.
Uh, the proposed agriculture related activities use permit is
inconsistent with the city of Milton comprehensive plan update 2016
and objectives. In addition, the proposed agriculture related
activities use permit is not compatible with surrounding land uses,
since it would operate concurrently with the by right uses of the farm
winery and the equestrian related activities, including riding lessons,
boarding of horses, as well as the request of a rural event facility use
permit or maximum of 100 attendees per event every day of the
week.
Therefore, staff recommends that U21-02 be denied. In addition,
staff recommends that VC21-03 Parts 1 and 2 be denied. If the
Mayor and City Council choose to approve the requested use permit
and concurrent variances, staff has provided a set of recommended
conditions below. First, to the owner's agreement to restrict the use
of the subject property as follows. Agriculture related activities
excluding exotic animals, kennels, and overnight camps or events
on 18.027 acres. And the owner's, um, agreement to abide to the
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following substantial compliance for the site plan received by the
Community Development Department on May 25.
Uh, to the owner's agreement of the following use permits — uh, use
requirements, I'm sorry, days and hours of the operation shall be the
following. Monday through Saturday 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m., Sunday
10:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. There shall be no more than a total of 25
attendees per day, Monday through Friday, and no more than a total
of 50 attendees on Saturday and Sunday for camps, birthday parties,
and educational events. Limited farm animal petting, primarily
associated with other events, no more than once per week for a limit
of three hours of the barnyard experience.
And D, maximum continuous levels of 50 dba to maximum peak
sound level 55 dba at property lines. For the owner's agreement to
the following site development considerations. Provide adequate
temporary bathroom facilities, including handicap accessible unit,
which time permit - until which time permanent bathroom facilities
can be provided. Said facility shall be located at least 100 feet from
any property line and out of view from Bethany Way or Hopewell
Road. Trash receptacles shall be located at least 100 feet from any
property line.
5.) To the owner's agreement to abide to the following requirements,
dedications, and improvements. A) Access to the site and frontage
improvement shall be subject to the approval of the city of Milton
Department of Public Works prior to the issuance of the business
license, land disturbance permits, subdivision plat, or certificate of
occupancy, whichever comes first. Entrances and frontage
improvement shall conform to Chapter 48 Street, Sidewalks, and
Other Public Places and Chapter 64 Zoning of the City of Milton
Code of Ordinances.
B) If at such time the director of public works determines the traffic
generated by the site impacts the operations of Bethany Way or
Hopewell Road, he or she may require the owner to conduct a traffic
study to determine if the development warrants any additional
improvements at no cost to the city. If the improvements are
determined to be warranted, owner shall not install those — owner
shall install those at no cost to the city. And lastly, a storm water
management concept plan shall be submitted and improved by the
Milton Public Works Department prior to submission of land
disturbance application if required.
And then, um, separately if you so choose to approve, uh, the
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concurrent variance, it would be A) to allow the existing parking
areas, wood pavilion, horse arenas, and driveways within 100 foot
activity setback, Part 1, and allow the structures housing animals to
be located within the 100 — within 100 feet of a property line. And
that's Part 2. And with that, um, that's the conclusion of this, uh,
staff report. And so, I am available for any questions that you might
have. And I'll be happy to go back to the staff — I mean, to the site
plan if that might be helpful as well.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I'll start out. And if there's any particular questions for Robyn
right now and then, we'll hear from public comment after that. But
Laura?
CM Bentley: Just a quick question, Robyn. Your staff report you considered the
entire, um — the rural, um, agricultural activities, the winery, and the
rural event facility when you —
Ms. MacDonald: As well as the equestrian related.
CM Bentley: Okay. So, you — you looked at all the activities. But we're hearing
this first public hearing is for the agricultural activities use permit.
Ms. MacDonald: Yes, correct.
CM Bentley: Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that your recommendation
was based on everything —
Ms. MacDonald: Correct. It was comprehensive, yes.
CM Bentley: -- converging onto the — okay. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Anybody else have any questions at this point? Um, then, uh, we'll
open up. Um, obviously, we've got public comment. Um, and as —
as usual, um, Mayor and Council are, uh, certainly open and want to
let everybody have an — an opportunity to speak and — and hear
everything that you have to say. I would just ask with — with, uh,
this and I'm sure there's going to be a lot. So, if everybody would
be respectful of their time and if there is somebody that speaks
before you and, um, you know, has the same — same input, if you'd
just, uh, kind of piggyback on that.
But, uh, just be respectful of the time. But that being said, while our
typical rules, uh, only allow about 10 minutes on each side and a lot
of jurisdictions, ask our city attorney, stick to that, um, we certainly
have always, uh, had a practice of letting everyone that, uh, wants
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to speak to have an opportunity to speak. But I — I say all that and
just everybody to be, uh — uh, you know, uh, respectful of — of — of
— of the time. So, um, anyways, our first public comment. Would
you please call that, Tammy?
City Clerk: Uh, I'd like, uh, Ms. Pamela Jackson.
Ms. Jackson: Thank you. For the record, my name is Pamela Jackson. I live at
2105 Bethany Way. First, I want to thank all of you for the time,
thought, and effort that you have given this situation. I especially
want to thank those of you that came out last week to tour the farm
and winery and see for yourselves what we really are doing and
What, um, we're really about over there. That meant a great deal to
me. Thank you. I'm not going to take a lot of time to go over points
of these applications. This has been going on for a long time. And
you know what they are. What I want to share is about my farm and
my winery and that it is a passion that runs deep within me.
It makes me happy and it brings me joy and it brings joy to so many
other people in our community. Through the years, we have been a
haven for children to grow in the agricultural world. Many started
with us at the age of 4 and are in their 20's now and are still with us
at the farm. We employ several special needs people and I have
watched their lives change dramatically at the farm. We are a
working farm and exemplify everything agricultural but we are so
much more than that. We are a place that has supported the people
of this community through some very hard times. Most of you know
the devastating circumstances I had to face four years ago and know
about the events that led me to start the farm winery.
Aside from my children and David, nothing means more to me than
my farm. Nothing. But I have to be able to financially sustain it and
it has to make financial sense. With respect to my neighbors, I have
heard them. I withdrew the third application, which was what was
most disturbing to them. It was that application that also made the
most revenue for my farm., I continue to respect them and I have
tried very hard to work with them on finding a place in the middle
where we can co -exist peacefully and I can still operate my business
in a manner that will make the money necessary to financially
sustain it.
Then, after all of that, the city, which has fully supported me by
recommending approval of all of the applications suddenly switched
their position to denial even after I withdrew the third application. I
have lived in this area for over 50 years now. My grandchildren who
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also live here are the fifth generation of my family in this
community. I now feel like my city has turned their back on me. I
understand the concerns that have been raised by some people but
there are ripple effects and unintended consequences in things. I
have been transparent since the beginning of this.
I want to continue to be transparent. I have now spoken with two
developers, one of which is interested in putting high density
housing on my property. As you know, my property is a large plot
encompassing the corner of both Bethany Way and Hopewell Road
right at the new roundabout. It is highly desired by developers. I
don't share that as a threat. I share this because of where I am in my
life. Since the last city council meeting, David and I have spent a lot
of time thinking about our future and how we want to live out our
remaining years. I am nearly 60 years old. David is 63. Together, we
have 10 children. All of them are grown, independent, and on their
own.
We are past the empty nester stage. We are in the next stage of our
lives. I have absolutely no mortgage on any of my property. And I
have found out that I can sell it for at least $15 million, maybe more.
For me to stay here and maintain the farm, it has to make financial
sense. It has to be able to sustain itself financially. If we are
struggling to make ends meet because I cannot run the farm in a
manner necessary to bring in the revenue to support it, why would
we stay? With $15 million plus dollars, we could live anywhere we
wanted and have one hell of a wine cellar.
Though what my real desire is is to maintain my farm as a true
working farm for generations to come. My children are committed
to maintaining it as a farm. However, David and I are in a place in
our lives where we don't want to just pour money into something
that has no way of sustaining itself because of the restrictions placed
on it. Mr. Garrett, right now, you have a beautiful vineyard in your
backyard. Without your support, you will have other people's
houses in your backyard and density —
Mr. Jarrard: Mr. Mayor, very — very respectfully, the comments need to be
directed to the Council.
Ms. Jackson: Okay. Also with the Canouses, right now, they have a, um — acres
of trees — acres of tree buffers and pasture land filled with horses in
their backyard. Without their support, they will have someone else's
swimming pool in their backyard. With respect, I have heard all of
you and I have tried very hard to work with all of you. There is a
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ripple effect that happens. This has been a long and difficult process.
I have been personally attacked. My integrity has been questioned
by people who don't know me. I have received obscene anonymous
threats in my mailbox by cowards. Mayor and Councilmembers, I
come to you with gratitude for all the time you have given this.
I know it is a hard decision but really, it shouldn't be. Every one of
you ran on a platform of keeping Milton rural, promoting
agriculture, and maintaining the farms. It is my hope to keep
operating a thriving farm and winery. It is my family's desire to help
preserve precious green space, retain Milton's equestrian
populations, and support agriculture and community education. And
I need the support of my city to do this. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Please, uh, hold your applause until the - after everyone
has spoken.
Ms. Smith: Good evening, Mr. Mayor and City Council Members. My name is
Ellen Smith. I'm an attorney with Parker Poe and I have the pleasure
of representing, uh, the applicant before you this evening. Um, you
have heard a lot. And first, I should say thank you, uh, and I echo
Ms. Jackson saying thank you. Uh, you have spent a lot of time, uh,
considering not only winery related matters and everything else over
the past year but this application that's before you. Um, I also way
to say thank you to staff and the city attorney. We have met and
we've been meeting, uh, and talking about this.
This is not an easy, uh, problem that you have before you. What you
have is a situation where the city code doesn't match the uses on
property that have been made on this property for a long time. And
if we're talking about specifically agriculturally related activities for
this application that includes horseback riding with birthday parties.
So, it's been the city's interpretation as soon as someone gets off a
horse, that's where the equestrian use of the property ends. If they
eat a piece of birthday cake, that's where birthday party begins.
And that was the rationale for applying for the agricultural, uh,
related activities. We went to the city. We said here is the list of uses
that we have on property. Tell us what you think we need. We
divided them up into use permit applications. And that's what you
received. Um, with respect to staff, uh, you know, we disagree with
those interpretations. Okay. But to get through this process to allow,
particularly with this set of uses, those uses to continue, we filed the
application. Uh, with respect to Robyn, her report that you've heard,
doesn't include the limitations that we've proposed most recently on
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July 8.
It doesn't include and it contemplates that there is going to be an
addition to all of these uses. And so, there is going to be a stack of
parking required and a stack of hours of operation. And our goal in
proposing to you on July 8 that we consolidate the applications into
one application was so from the city's enforcement standpoint, you
would know exactly how many people were going to be on site at
what time and for what use. And with respect, I would highly
encourage you to consider that. Um, I know we're going to run out
of time. But I — I would be remiss if I didn't say this. Uh, I submitted
to you affidavits this afternoon.
All of the people who provided those affidavits are here tonight,
including — or available by phone, um, on Zoom, or You Tube I
think it's on now, um, including the farm director. It provided a lot
of details in terms of how many children come for — for lessons,
birthday parties, what days of the week, what times of the day. And
we're happy to go through all of that in detail. Similarly, with
respect to parking, you don't want your code enforcement officers
to come onto a property and say, "Okay, you can park here if you
are riding and you can park here if you're going to the winery and
you can park here if you're going somewhere else."
The goal was to provide a comprehensive limiting set of conditions
but also to allow these applications to move forward. I — we
respectfully request that you approve this use permit application.
We, uh, had Planning Commission unanimous recommendation of
approval after, I don't know, two hours' worth of robust public
comment and hearing, uh, and discussion. We had a list of
conditions that the applicant agreed to. And we respectfully request
you approve this application. Or if you want to hold it, hear the next
one, and make a comprehensive decision, we would request that as
well.
We're happy to answer any questions you may have.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Do we have, um, the next public comment in support?
City Clerk: We do. I'd like to call, um, Ms. Judy Birds.
Ms. Burds: Judy Burds, 1165 Breen Drive here in Milton. It's been well
established that the farm of Pamelot has been a long — long operating
equine farm here in Milton. And most recently, the Painted Horse
Farm Winery was licensed both here locally with the state and
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federal and, as a result, is governed by both federal, state, and local
laws. This caused me to look into some of these laws, especially
some of the perplexity I saw because what you were trying to permit
here was already — already permitted by rate in the state of Georgia,
specifically, regarding educational and entertaining tours.
The George Law 5770 allows under it's agritourism educational and
entertaining tours to be conducted on agricultural projects — projects.
The Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts, the tours, state — state by right.
Georgia Law 5103, Sections 20 through 26 encourage the
recreational use of agricultural private land. Specifically, they call
out fishing, petting zoos, picnicking, naturestudies, which I think
extends to photography. Georgia Law, of course, that you're
familiar with more with the winery 3621.1 C Subsection B allows a
tasting room on the property. So, state law allows a lot by right of
what they are and have been doing and are proposing to do but you
seek to try to permit.
You know the history. You — I watched as you permitted them as a
farm winery. I also watched as you revised the alcohol chapter to
incorporate farm wineries. I call your attention to Section 4-85F3
that specifically states that a farm winery's alcohol permit extends
to any wedding facilities that are on site. A reasonable person should
assume that you intended that there would be a wedding facility
when you granted that alcohol permit. With the withdrawal of the
concert, I'm a little confused as to whether or not they're, actually,
asking for a noise variance.
Um, they already have the right by right under Section 20-660 of
Milton Code to operate between 50 and 55 decibels until 11:00 at
night. Furthermore, Section 20-66E of the code also says that no
permit shall be given if you so choose that allows operation above
70 peak decibels, no permit. You violated that before. I'm also
confounded by staff's previous recommendation to approve these
permits and a change of its considerations in support of denial. What
changed even after the Planning Commission supported this? We all
know that Milton Code is not perfect. There is nothing in there about
parking on farm wineries.
There is nothing that says this is what you have to have, how much
you have to have. A lot of other uses but not farm wineries. The
other thing that I think is a little problematic is that Milton does not
have the bright line that some of the surrounding municipalities have
in defining what an event is. It does call out that a concert is an event.
Um, they have withdrawn the request for a concert. So, the other
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uses they have do not clearly, in the definitions that are in the — in
Milton's Code talk about and qualify as an event.
And so, I've — what I am recommending since they have by right the
ability to operate these items under Milton Law, under state law, and
are federally licensed that the city withdraw pursuit of these permits
and let them operate. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy, if you'll please call the next public in support.
City Clerk: I'd like to invite Kevin Crow to the podium please.
Mr. Crow: Kevin Crow, 1153 Breen Drive, Milton, Georgia. Um, since we're
limited on time, I won't go through my points I was going to make
here, um, to be fair to other, um, people in attendance. But I'm here
after reading the June 10 Milton Herald article about the Painted
Horse Winery and was amazed at the quotes from that article from
the city council. Um, I'll just kind of highlight it. Uh, you, basically,
said you were disappointed with the Save the Farm campaign but
you were supportive of the Save Matilda's campaign when that was
going on. The article stated that 12 homeowners around the property
spoke against these permits.
But during Matilda's, there were 40 Milton residents around
Matilda's who spoke against that. That was enough to support a
denial. Per the article, the city council said, "The applicant has
engaged in disinformation campaign and compromised public
discourse." Um, however, during Matilda's, uh, application, um,
current member of the city council, uh, showed active social media
campaign support for Matilda's and tried to tie it to Seven Acre
Restaurant in the public mind and that's called polluting the public
discourse.
Per the article, you stated that you were upset about the Painted
Horse Winery social media posts but you were perfectly okay with
the, uh, Matilda's applicants publicly deriding Milton residents and
their social media posts. Not a word from this city council about
that. You stated the applicant is loophole hunting but you were
perfectly okay with shoving a square peg in a round hole. You're,
um, characterization of Matilda's, not mine. When that was the — uh,
applicant was seeking the most special use permit variances in the
history of this city.
It's ironic to hear that the noise level of 55 decibels at the winery is
too much when we in the Milton community begged for twice that
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sound level for Matilda's and you said, "No. That's not — that's
unreasonable. We want to make it three times higher." You also said
that, uh, people were operating at a very high density level at this
location. But you were okay with approving up to three times the —
that same density at Matilda's. Basically, what I'm getting at here is
that it appears the decisions are being made more for personal
relationships rather than relative facts.
And a local business woman is being treated 100% different than
prior applicants who got more than they originally asked for but for
— but those were for long term friends of the city. As a taxpayer, I
advise you to approve these variances and these permit requests
because I think if you keep going down this road, the city taxpayers
are going to have to pay for a lawsuit or a settlement due to your
obvious and easily documented inequitable treatment of Ms.
Jackson's small business versus other entities belonging to
campaign friends. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Again, I'd ask you to please hold the applause. Um, can you please
call the next speaker?
City Clerk: Next, I'd like to ask Stacy Jackson to come to the podium. Okay.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay, next.
City Clerk: Next, David Jackson.
Mr. Jackson: I'm David Jackson. My wife Stacy and I live at 2055 Bethany Way.
We are the house immediately to the west of the winery. We've been
there 10 years and all of these birthday parties and weddings have
been going on for 10 years. It's never been an issue for us. Um, the
winery, I — I don't know, it's been going on for a year or so and, to
be honest, it's never been an issue for us. Um, we've, actually, met
more neighbors in the past year at the winery than we have in the 10
years prior. So, we appreciate the winery being there. It's kind of a
gathering place for the city of Milton, um, for our immediate
neighbors especially.
And we appreciate what she's doing there. Um, kids birthday
parties, we hear kids' birthday parties in the neighborhood directly
behind me more in Cooper Sandy more than I hear birthday parties
at the winery. Just because of the location of where they do all this
stuff, it's — it's far from where all the residences are. So, I don't
understand why there needs to be a permit. It's never been an issue
in the past. And the biggest complaint that I think we've heard
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through the planning process was traffic. And to be honest, there
hasn't been an issue with traffic either. I mean, we've been there for
10 years. There is more traffic cutting through Bethany Way to get
to schools in the morning.
City Clerk: One minute.
Mr. Jackson: And the biggest problem is turning left onto Hopewell from Bethany
Way. If you can fix that, there's not going to be any traffic on
Bethany Way for because of the winery. So, we appreciate you
hearing us but as far as my wife and I are concerned, it hasn't been
an issue. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy, what's — what's the time elapsed so far?
City Clerk: So, there's 38 seconds left in this first 10 minutes for the in support
of.
Mayor Lockwood: Um, and I'm assuming you've got several more.
City Clerk: I do. I have at least 10 more.
Mayor Lockwood: I'm going to go ahead and just — and not that we have to use it but,
uh, recommend that we add 30 minutes. Um, and then, obviously,
that would go to both sides. But, you know, it doesn't mean we have
to use all 30 minutes but, um —
City Clerk: Mayor, can I clarify? An additional 30 minutes or an extra 20?
Mayor Lockwood: An additional 30. Well, an additional I'm going to say 30, um, as
long as Council is okay with that.
City Clerk: Okay. I have to make sure we have —
Mayor Lockwood: And, hopefully, we won't have to go back for that. But, so I'll need
a motion.
CM Longoria: Mayor, I move that we add an additional 30 minutes as just
recommended.
CM Bentley: Second.
Mayor Lockwood: And to clarify that's to both sides, for and, uh, against. Okay. All in
favor, please say aye.
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Councilmembers: Aye.
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Longoria moved to add an additional 30
minutes to the Public Hearing for Agenda Item No. 21-160. Councilmember
Bentley seconded the motion. The motion passed (7-0).
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you.
City Clerk: May I just get a — I'm sorry, Mayor.
Mayor Lockwood: I'm sorry. Councilmember Longoria, who seconded it?
CM Moore: We all did I think.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Councilmember Bentley seconded. We get that. Again, I'm
doing that in — in respect to everybody here no matter what side you
are. If you — if you've shown up here tonight, I certainly want you
to have the opportunity to speak but just ask that, uh, everybody
respect the time. Okay. You'll call the next people.
City Clerk: Thank you, Mayor. I next would like to invite, and my apologies if
I pronounce this incorrectly, Dave Hene. Doug, I'm sorry, Doug.
Mr. Hene: See, I'm, uh — thank you so much for having me and allowing us all
to speak and extending the time. My name is Doug Hene. I live at
1994 — my wife and 1, we live at 1994 Bethany Way, um, across the
street from David who just spoke kind of cattycorner from, uh, the
Painted Horse. And we've lived there — well, we've owned that
property for 14 years. I, actually, went to Milton High School. I've
been here my whole life. I'm going to be here the rest of my life.
Uh, let me start by saying, uh, the same thing I said to Councilman
Bentley.
I think it's pretty awful that this seems to be something that's
causing neighbors to line up on opposite sides of the aisle without
having had a conversation with each other or with the folks at the
Painted Horse. Uh, Tony Rich and I spoke and we can agree to
disagree. We can respect each other as people and still have a
relationship. I hope that, uh, this isn't something that neighbors get
so heated about that they can't just agree to disagree and still be
good with each other. Uh, as the Rabbi said earlier to kick us off and
as a Christian, I completely agree, we can all work through this
process with respect and dignity.
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And I hope that that's the case and that there are no hard feelings
with all the folks in the room or with any of you when all this is
over. Um, I think that took longer than I expected so I'll read
quicker. Uh, at first, I was against this, too, as the fear, um, all the
rumors out there was that they were going to put an amphitheater
across the street and I was totally against that. I did not want the next
Verizon or Ameris Bank or whatever it is to be put there. Uh, that's
not that we're asking. They've, actually, pared down their request
as we've heard tonight, uh, to something that is not as onerous.
Uh, it's not negative to our neighbor. There seems to be a lot of
confusion as to what the real issue is. There was originally three
requests. It was kiddy parties, adult parties, and concert events. And
the Planning Commission meeting that was just talked about earlier
where I think it was, actually, supported by staff, um, the initial part
of the meeting for kiddy parties took two hours and forty-five
minutes because we spent two hours and forty-five minutes talking
about free beer and barbeque and noise and stuff that didn't even
apply to kiddy parties because the most of the people complaining
about the problem didn't really understand what the problem is.
The problem was No. 3, the big concerts, which has since been
withdrawn. So, now we're left with kiddy parties and ancillary
music for the winery and weddings, which are pretty small
weddings. And as David Jackson said earlier who lives directly next
door, it's not been a problem in 10 years. The real issues are noise
and traffic. So, let's talk about this. So, noise. We've — we've heard
large concert, um, again, that's off the table so I'm not even
concerned about that.
What we're really talking about is noise for really small weddings
where it's not — they're not — it's not a whole bunch of people. And
we're talking about noise for the ancillary music for the winery,
which the last time Lindsey and I went, we decided, you know what,
let's — let's walk there along Bethany Way. It was — there was traffic
for sure, but let's — let's walk it and see when we, actually, hear the
music from the winery. We got halfway between my house and,
again, if you look at that map, proximity wise, other than Stacy and
David, we — we're — and the folks directly across the street, we're
one of the next closest houses.
My house is closer in proximity to where they, actually, have the
music than anybody in Cooper Sandy. We walked halfway up
Bethany Way from my house to — to the winery before we could
even hear anything. We were almost right there and that's at their
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property line. It's — to me, that's not a problem. Um, it's not — not
that big a deal. So, the traffic, um, I've — I've been to this — to this
building a few times. The first time I came here was about traffic on
my street because people fly up and down my street all the time.
There have been wrecks and really bad wrecks. And those wrecks
are always — not always, mostly, drivers who are speeding.
And — and — and it's been pretty devastating some of those wrecks.
It's not a couple out on a date to a winery. So, to say that the traffic
is so bad, there's not a ton of cars either. There's just — there's just
not. And, again, I live — I have the worst turn onto Bethany Way
from anyone else. I live on the inside curve. My left hand turn is
blind on both sides. It's awful. Thursday, Friday, Saturday nights,
Sundays, there's a cop that I can see from my driveway on the street
because of the Painted Horse. What does that do? That causes
everybody to slow down. I don't have people flying by. When my
16 -year-old takes a left and everyone is going slower that matters to
me.
Again, I live right there. I want that slower. Having — having, uh, the
cops out there does that. Uh, this other concern about there being
businesses on Bethany Way. There's always been rural businesses.
The Farm at Pamelot was one, Pleasant Hills Farm was one. Those
provided for the land that kept it from becoming neighborhoods in
the past. Finally, the Hay Good General Store, which is right in front
of David Jackson's house, the old brick structure that everyone in
the city thought was so cool they put a sign in front of until a speeder
knocked down the sign and brings me back to my original point of
people flying up and down the street.
So, I'm not opposed to the Painted Horse having live ancillary music
during winery hours. I'm not opposed to them having small
weddings with the people limitations that they have expressed. I
absolutely want those in there. But, again, I don't want a ton of folks
there. I don't want live concerts. I don't believe that's what's being
requested. I'm in support because they aren't breaking any laws.
They're not being obnoxious or a nuisance or doing anything
negative for our area. And I don't like the idea of limiting our
freedoms just because we don't like it or we disagree. Thank you for
your time.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you.
City Clerk: I'd like to call Ms. Christine Milo to the podium please.
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Ms. Milo: I'm Christine Milo at 14391 Club Circle. Um, I am somebody who
has been to the winery before. I have no affiliations with them. Um,
but I just want to say I haven't been to these other meetings before,
for a city that prides itself on its independence and supports its locals
so much, I'm appalled that the locals are, essentially, trying to shut
a locally owned and run business down, a business that supports
other local businesses. If you don't know, they purchase foods and
goods from other surrounding businesses in Alpharetta. It's a
business that creates jobs and a business that helps our local
economy thrive.
I'm truthfully ashamed at some of my local community members,
including this council for this action against this local business.
Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy, if you'll please call the next speaker.
City Clerk: Mariah Mirchandani. I'm sorry? Okay. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Call the next speaker.
City Clerk: Can I — and Mayor, can I please just have clarification? Bailey Stein
and Tori McKinley, you did not indicate if you were in support or
in opposition? So, I would like to call then Bailey to the podium
please.
Ms. Stey: Hi. I'm Bailey Stey, 1045 Pine Grove Drive. Um, I'm, actually, the
tasting room manager at, uh, the Painted Horse Winery. Uh, I have
worked parties on both sides for the equestrian birthday parties of
all ages. Um, small, small children like small, small children to I just
worked a 65 -year-old birthday party the other day. They come, they
like to sit and look at the beauty that Painted Horse is. I don't know
if any of you have been there but it's fantastically gorgeous. Um,
they sit, they hang out. They might have a glass of wine. They look
at — they pet the animals and they hang about.
Um, it's not overly outrageous, not loud, not crazy. Um, but it is
beautiful and that's kind of the best part about working there. I have
lived in Alpharetta and Milton my entire life. Um, I have grown up
here. I was born at Northside Hospital, Atlanta all the way. Um, and
I have seen so much destruction throughout my life here, especially
recently. Um, a lot of green space that I have loved my whole live
has been taken away. Um, and I come to the Painted Horse every
day and am so thankful that I get to see that that place is. I also get
to see the people walk in and see the beauty on their faces.
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They come in absolutely astonished that this exists this close to a
city. Um, they come and they just want to have a good time and look
at how gorgeous this city is. Um, I'm a person that wants to keep
that going. Um, working for Pamela, she also wants to keep that
going. We love this city, um, and we hope that you guys can support
that. Thank you. And I also wanted to, um, on that note of everybody
being here, we have a lot of support here. If anybody could stand up
that is in support of us just so we kind of see who you are.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Thank you.
Ms. Stey: That says a lot. Um, all of these people are almost all friends of mine,
um, who want to support Pamela. And I think that that should say a
lot. Thanks, guys.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Tammy, if please call the next speaker.
City Clerk: Tori McKinley.
Ms. McKinley: Hi, there. My name is Tori McKinley. I live at 13085 Morris Road
here in Milton. Uh, I wanted to thank you, first of all, for giving me
a chance to speak. I'm the assistant tasting — uh, tasting room
manager at Painted Horse Winery. Um, I sought out Milton as a city
for a place to do something better for myself. Um, living in the city
of Atlanta during a global pandemic wasn't a great place to be. And
low and behold, here I find this beautiful horse farm and winery in
the middle of Milton that's outdoors that can accommodate people
and their families while we're all kind of forced inside keeping that,
you know, social aspect going on.
And kudos to a business owner who can, actually, thrive in such an
environment like that and build something for herself. Uh, you
know, earlier as we were talking, um, the point that on the agenda
tonight about the election, you said that you really appreciated some
spirited people talking about upholding integrity. I can tell you after
working 15 years in hospitality, there are a handful of owners that
have the integrity level of Pamela Jackson. The fact that she has
dotted every I and crossed every T that she's needed to to be
neighborly, um, she embodies the idea of loving thy neighbor even
though her name was kind of drug through the mud on this, uh, from
what I can understand.
Uh, she is constantly there not only for us as staff but embodies that
Georgia southern hospitality that I've worked in for so long by
opening her backyard to people who, after all the building in
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Alpharetta, don't have much of one. It's really nice to have that open
green space that everyone can get together at. Um, in terms of the
different addendums that had to happen, I know John, the police
officer out there I, actually, him from working off duty out front, his
parents live just down the street. They weren't for it either but then,
they came and visited and they saw it and they pet the animals and
they spent some time around the horses and they had a glass of wine
And now, they love it. Generally, if you can seek to understand first,
uh, I promise you you'll fall in love with the place. I would hate to
see, you know, much like Bailey said, uh, another area that is
overdeveloped. And, again, kudos to someone who has made their
memories for so long in the city of Milton, uh, in this area that wants
to preserve that, uh, for future generations. Uh, her daughter, Juliet
Johnson, runs a horse farm. She's director of farm management.
She's also my boss. The horse riding lessons there have had a 2.5 -
year -old get on a horse for the first time just, "Wee, horsey." You
know, um, up to, as Bailey mentioned, older people coming out and
never getting on a horse before.
Our director of operations, I had to put her on my horse the first
couple of weeks there. So, the type of memories I'm making there
are memories for people coming out to have a glass of wine and see
the farm. Granted, it's for their kids that are running around because
maybe they don't have a backyard of their own. And, uh, I would
just really like us to consider to allow these birthday parties, these
get togethers, these functions to be able to continue and, hopefully,
expand that. To be able to get married in your backyard in Milton
would be a pretty awesome thing.
Um, but I appreciate the time for you letting me speak tonight. And
I — I hope that we're able to move forward and continue to have
some good times here in the city of Milton. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. All right. Tammy, if you'd please call the next speaker.
City Clerk: The next one I will read into the record. It's from Annaleigh
Jackson. She's at 2105 Bethany Way. And she wanted to, for the
record, show that she was in support of the farm — this — this item. I
also have another one from Mary Mayer at 16070 Henderson Road
in Milton. She wanted, for the record, for her to know that we are —
that she is in favor of granting permits for events at the Painted
Horse Winery. And we also have another one to read for the record
from Kyle Reynolds at 2095 Bethany Way. And he is in support of
the farm winery. That concludes the support on this item. I have
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more support for the next item in that public comment.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. So, now, we'll allow those to speak that —
City Clerk: In the opposition?
Mayor Lockwood: -- in opposition.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I'd like to invite Ms. Kasey Sturm to the podium please.
Ms. Sturm: Good evening, Councilmembers. My name is Kasey Sturm. I'm
with the law firm Wiseman PC. That's 3500 Lennox Road, Atlanta,
Georgia 3031 — 30326. 1 have the pleasure of representing Erin and
Joseph Canouse. Um, unfortunately, they could not be here this
evening due to a pre-existing conflict. So, when we were here last,
they indicated that they had a conflict with the rescheduling. They
along with many others of the impacted community have not been
able to attend. Um, Mr. and Mrs. Canouse own and reside on
property that's in the Lake at Cooper Sandy neighborhood.
The property is located at 800 Cooper Sandy Cove. They reside
there with their young children, um, and extended family. They
bought the property in this area based on the fact that this was a
residential community, large scale, high value residential
community and that, um, the area supported kind of the family
values that go along with that. In looking at the property, they also
bought this based on the fact that the anticipated use for the property
and the comprehensive long term use for this property also
highlighted those consistent uses. A continued focus on large, high
value residential communities and a real family oriented value.
They have experienced extensive interruption with the use and
enjoyment of their property based on activities that have been
conducted and carried out at the Painted Horse Winery. Their
property is cattycorner to that property and they have experienced
excessive noise what has woken up their young children. They have
not been able to engage in family activities at their property. And I
won't go into it. I know you've heard from them before and you've
heard from others. But it has been an extensive interruption and a
nuisance to their use and enjoyment of their property. I recognize
that you all do not have an easy task before you.
Um, and I think we all recognized that last time we were here as
well. I want to say that I was encouraged by the last meeting of this
body. Um, there was very thoughtful consideration on both sides of
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the equation to the issues involved here. And I was very encouraged
to hear this council, despite requests for you all to make a decision
at that June 7 meeting to deny these applications. The opportunity
that was extended to the applicant to meet with the impacted
community. Um, not unlike how I talk to my children, you have the
opportunity and the ability to change the outcome.
And one of the remarks I remember closely when we left here is a
comment by the public that said but how are we going to ensure this
happens. And one of the councilmembers said, "Because it
behooves the applicant to make sure that the communications
happen." I was encouraged by that. I was discouraged by what next
happened. I expected — fully expected that the applicant would
immediately reach out to the impacted community. I was
discouraged to find that it was the city that initiated
communications. I was discouraged by the process of those
communications.
I was discouraged to find that the applicant did not appear to be
willing or interested in engaging in meaningful discussion on the
issues that so dearly impact their neighboring community. This is an
interesting case from a zoning perspective. Often times, residents
come before you and they are forced to project what is likely to
occur if a use is allowed. This instance is different. And that is
because the applicant was carrying on these uses without the ability
or authority to do so. And the impact has already been realized. It is
a nuisance. It is an inconvenience. It is a burden on the surrounding
community.
It is a detriment to their use and enjoyment of their properties. In
looking at the uses, I want to note for the record it has already been
well documented both in testimony and comments that there is a
discrepancy in what is projected as historic uses of this property. I
will not go through that again but I think the record shows that there
is a disconnect between what is presented as a historic use of this
property and what long term residents of this community, 20 and 30
years, recognize as having occurred on that property. The intensity
of use, when we get down to it, as in other zoning issues, is a
location, location, location.
The intensity of the use being proposed for this location is
incompatible. It does not coincide with your surrounding properties.
It does not coincide with your current or projected uses for this area.
So, it is an unfortunate aspect but it is one that was recognized and
the applicant was well aware of had they paid attention to the uses.
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I think one of the things that needs to be considered is that when we
talk about a legal nonconforming use 1.) it had to occur and it had
to be legal when it occurred. And legal nonconforming uses,
typically, are also not authorized to be expanded.
When we seek to expand a legal nonconforming use to the extent it
is that, we are required to bring it into compliance with current laws.
And what seems to be happening here is that there is a recognition
that we are moving from what historically may have been a more
agriculture, equestrian use of this property to what is being
purported as a more events use under a concept of a winery. And it
appears that maybe, at one point in time, -it was understood to be a
boutique winery. We simply question is that winery, actually,
meeting the requirements that sustain it as a primary use of this
property? We don't see the evidence for that.
We also don't believe that there is evidence that this use supports
the activities that are being — occurring in that context meaning that
farm wineries in Georgia do have regulations on them. It doesn't
mean that once you're designated a farm winery you have no use
regulations. They have regulations. They have certain annual
production requirements they're supposed to be meeting. And based
on those production requirements, we have authorization for things
such as tasting rooms. It does not appear, from our research into this,
that we believe those requirements are being met.
We also have grave concerns about transparency as far as what uses
are being promoted in front of you to obtain agricultural use as well
as what uses are presented to other bodies such as tax commissioners
and other entities that regulate the property as far as the primary use
of the project. So, it seems to be, um, a disconnect in what the
applicant contents based on what they're trying to achieve. We
would ask that based on the recent recommendation by the staff for
denial, we ask that this board take that staff recommendation and
deny the application. And part of that, we recognize that there is a
difficult task ahead of you in how do we isolate out different uses.
In that regard, I would say, again, it's been very clear that in this
process, these use permits cannot be considered in isolation. To do
so ignores what is going on, which is that the primary use of this
property is no longer what it's being presented as. And that if we try
to separate out the different uses, we have to be entirely clear about
what those specific uses, actually, entail. So, as written, these use
permits were broad enough that all of these uses presumably or
perceivably, depending on how you interpret it, could be authorized
1
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under any one of them. So, I would encourage you to consider them
together and to support the staff's recommendation of denial.
In that regard, I would also suggest that the variances be considered
in the same light and that those be denied as well. Um, thank you for
your time. I think it's important that you hear from the community
impacted so I am going to step away and, again, just thank you for
the opportunity to speak.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy, if you'd please call the next speaker.
City Clerk: I'd like to call Mr. Bill Garrett to the podium.
Mr. Garrett: Ladies and gentlemen of the Council, I've lived there for 46 years,
44 years. I'm telling my age now.
Mayor Lockwood: Mr. Garrett, if you don't — if you don't mind just for the record.
Mr. Garrett: I'm sorry 13450 Hopewell Road right next door to, uh, the Jacksons.
They adjoin my property. Um, first off, I want to say this. I have
been there since Mr. and Mrs. Jackson bought the property. I have
not observed anything that was disturbing or anything that was out
of line as far as all of their activities has been concerned of what all
she's claimed that they have. The things that she's claiming that
they've been doing, if they've been doing it, I haven't been disturbed
at all. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it. And what that
boils down to, in my opinion, is this. AGI regulations and
authorized uses as they stand is all she needs.
The only thing that has happened that causes me to be here with this
thing is and it started happening about I'd say March or April maybe.
I started hearing a lot of loud music. I started observing I'd say 100
automobiles moving in and out of that property down there and
watching big crowds coming in and out. Um, the noise level started
up. Uh, when I looked into it, I found out that Ms. Jackson had hired
or went into a contract with some music company. And this music
company, they had already built the provision or a bandstand up
there. And there was a — a bandstand there. And they were putting
on shows.
And these people were coming and I guess they're paying — paying
tickets or buying tickets to get in there. And so, what it really, in my
opinion, boils down to in this whole thing, if we boil it all down and
put it in a nutshell, Ms. Jackson is trying to convert this farmland or
I should say agricultural area into a commercial operation of a — an
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entertainment venue. And this — she's willing to run this thing on a
show basis. And the only other thing that I'm going to point out to
you is she point — she's — I saw it when I was up there last, uh,
meeting that we had here, I saw a, um, uh, plat. And she's got an
8,000 foot house or building that's right outside my back door.
Now, I don't know how much — how many grapes she's growing.
But the only grapes I've seen is probably about an acre and a half or
maybe two acres that's right outside my back door. Now, whether
she's got another vineyard up on the other hill, I haven't seen it. But
I know this and it doesn't take an MIT graduate to figure it out, she's
not — she's not producing enough grapes to put into a big so-called
winery that she's wanting to build over there. And the only possible
use that that building can be for would be more parties and more,
uh, she's calling it drink — uh, tasting and this sort of thing.
But I also understand that she's having a — a caterer come in there. I
think it's `cue or something like that that's bringing food and also
alcoholic beverages in. Now, I don't — that — I guess they got the —
the, uh, permit for it. But this is what she's doing. And what she's
doing as part of the agricultural part of growing grapes and this sort
of thing, there's nothing wrong with that. She hasn't disturbed
anybody with that. But when she comes in and she starts to try
changing this into a musical and entertainment venue and it's been
described in the last several weeks as bringing Buckhead up into
Milton County — uh, the city of Milton.
And that's exactly what she's trying to do. Yes. What she talked
about here, they — she's needing to make money. She's here to make
money. She don't care anything about her neighbors. We have had,
uh, groups get together several times here in this building. And she's
sat in one or two of the meetings and she don't say anything. We've
tried to work with — tried to come up with something as a solution
to work things out. And I've always — I've always felt like if I could
work something out on the basis as far as agreement, that's better
than any kind of court situation, which I've dealt with for 50 years.
And the neighbors tried to reach her to work something out. She
didn't make anything meaningful. No meaningful, uh, opposition or
anything there. So, what the — my position is this and I'm asking you
to look at it. Your staff has recommended denial on this whole thing.
And that's exactly what should be done here is to deny this thing.
She can still continue doing what she says she's been doing all these
years and she's saying she's wanting — uh, what is it, the grandpa,
bringing in the grandfather clause. I can't think like I used to. I'm
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not as quick as I used to be so you'll just have to deal with me a little
bit.
But she's talking about, uh, uh, grandfathered. That's what she says
she's been doing. Well, let her keep on doing like she's been doing.
She hasn't disturbed anybody but since March or April when she
starts throwing these entertaining situations in. That's what's got to
go. And this thing of a big building as far as winery, she don't need
that. Let — let her produce enough grapes to need something like that
and then, maybe come before you. We'll talk about that two or three
years from now. I'll ask you at this particular point with no uncertain
terms, deny the petition.
Let her keep doing what she's been doing under the grandfather
clause. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you Tammy, if you would please call the next speaker.
City Clerk: Mr. William Stampfl.
Mr. Stampfl: Mr. Mayor, Council, Bill Stampfl, 13820 Bethany Oaks Point,
Milton, Georgia, resident of Bethany Oaks for 25 years. Also served
as president of Homeowner Association pro tem so I've dealt with
situations like this within our, um — within our own neighborhood
for — for quite some time. Um, I've also seen Milton change
dramatically over 25 years. All the traffic, all the, you know, hustle
and bustle, right, teaching girls how to drive in — in this traffic on
these roads. Um, and since I've last spoke in front of the council,
nothing has changed. The traffic is still there. The noise is still there.
Came home from dinner the other night about 8:00 with my wife,
stopped at the corner of Hopewell and Bethany, heard the music.
Right. Went out on the back — you know, the back deck, heard the
music. Walked the neighborhood, heard the music. So, that
continues. The traffic is going to get worse, right. We're building
the — the roundabout there. That's starting next month as I've seen.
Right. I think it's going to get bad as well. I mean, I — you see the
cars coming out of the — out of the Painted Horse every day, right.
They're stuck there, right. They're trying to go either right, left, or
straight. The people who are trying to go straight, it's — it's a
nightmare.
It's just going to get worse with the roundabout construction
happening. So, you know, and then, finally, you know, the Uber and
Lyft drivers. They continue to park in our neighborhood. We see
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them — I see them all the time and I — I run them off. I say, "Guys,
you can't park here." First of all, there's a no soliciting sign, right.
Second of all, they're — you know, they shouldn't be there, right.
And, you know, so the end of the day, the bottom line is, you know,
recommendations been to deny, please deny. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy, if you'd please call the next speaker.
City Clerk: Mr. Tony Rich.
Mr. Rich: Good evening. Uh, Tony Rich, 1960 Bethany Way. Thanks for your
time tonight. Um, standing in front of this podium to talk about the
Painted Horse Winery is becoming too familiar. Um, we all have
better, certainly, more enjoyable things to do with our time. And
today is my mom's 801 birthday and I'd rather be at home having
dinner with her. But instead, I'm here, again, to talk about this
winery. Um, and the reason I'm doing that is because we have to
stand up for our homes. We have to stand up for our families. We
have to stand up for our neighborhood. And we have to do the very
best we can to protect our property values and our rural small town,
uh, way of life.
We've all seen the misleading social media pieces that the Painted
Horse Winery has, uh, been spreading around on social media. It's
called Save Our Farm, Save the Farm. Um, it has been so full of
misleading information suggesting that the neighbors, uh, and the
city want to see this farm fail. And that's just simply not true. Um, I
think we all know that's not true. I don't want to see this farm fail. I
would very much like to see this farm succeed. Um, but we want to
see it stay as a real farm, uh, and frankly, not turned into a weekend
drinking spot and a private event facility. Um, for 30 years, I found
out Pam has lived on this farm.
Um, it's known all over town as a great place to keep and ride
horses, for kids to take riding lessons from her daughter, Juliet, and
to have kids' birthday parties and horse camps. Um, and frankly,
those are all great activities that seem to have been lost in the shuffle
as this winery has continued to get out of hand. Uh, Pam has taken
this nice horse farm and completely distorted it with this winery,
which is very unfortunate. Uh, it started out small and harmless
enough. Uh, when we first heard about it, my wife and I thought it
was a very, very interesting idea and we looked forward to
supporting it.
Um, my understanding was they were going to plant a few vines,
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make some wine, offer a few tastings. But quickly, uh, in the early
months of 2020, it evolved into live, amplified music, selling wine
by the glass, uh, and large crowds, which created, uh, problems with
traffic that I think we've all dealt with. That's when it all started.
There is no place in our neighborhood for an events and drinking
facility that invites up to 100 people to come in every single
weekend. Um, that's a threat to our safety, to our property values,
and to our peace and quiet that we all signed up for. It's bad for our
neighborhood.
And if it's allowed to happen, it's a very bad precedent for the city
of Milton. Uh, if Pam wants to save the farm, um, how about keeping
it as a farm, um, which is where it all started? How about focusing
on what has already made Pamelot a successful farm and stop
cannibalizing the horse business for the drinking business? Uh,
focus on horses. Focus on kids. If they want to grow grapes, make a
little wine, and offer some tastings, fine. But stop bringing large
crowds of people in every weekend with live, amplified music. It's
just not necessary.
I respectfully request that our city council unanimously reject any
and all uses that allow this farm to develop and operate as an event
center and a drinking establishment in our residential area. Uh, for
what it's worth, um, my wife, Sarah, and I fully support everything
that Pamelot is doing with horses, uh, and hope that this council can
figure out a way for them to continue doing what they've done for
several decades without allowing this facility to turn into a
commercial, uh, establishment, which we don't need. Thanks for
your time. Very much appreciate it.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Tammy, next speaker please.
City Clerk: I'll call Mr. John Peeples to the podium.
Mr. Peeples: I'm John Peeples. I live at 1835 Bethany Way. Um, my wife, Liz,
and I have been there for 36 years. Um, I'm going to be very brief
and just reiterate what Tony said — uh, Tony Rich said. Um, I'm in
support of the agricultural activities. That's exactly what AGI is
supposed to be. That's what the neighborhood is supposed to be. But
the — if you have to have a police officer directing traffic and we
can't sit on our back deck and enjoy our own glass of wine then, uh,
without hearing music that maybe we didn't choose, um, that —
that's — we're not in support of that. Thank you for your time very
much.
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Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Thank you. Next speaker please.
City Clerk: Mr. Jason Joseph.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay.
City Clerk: Mr. Rick Steingald — Stengard. My apologies.
Mr. Stengard: Good evening. Uh, Rick Stengard, 2600 Bethany Creek Court.
Thanks for having us. Thanks for what you guys do. I'm sure you
want to hear more about this, right. I'll simply say I agree with most
of the deny speakers. AGI use, my sister went to camps there, great
facility for the city. Concert venue, drinking establishment, we got
downtown Alpharetta. Send them over there. Maybe downtown
Crabapple but that's good enough. Please keep the traffic and the
noise down. We are outside the initial notify zone.
I can hear that music at night. I don't know how the folks close by
can't but I can hear it at night. I've gone over there to see that there
was an event running. It was their music. I appreciate you guys.
Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Next speaker please.
City Clerk: Uh, Mayor, I would like to read this one into the record. It is from
Theodore Cox at 13860 Bethany Oaks Point. There are 58 homes at
Bethany Oaks Subdivision. In a typical year, perhaps five are sold.
We know this market is difficult but in the past three months, four
of the nine homes closest to the one we have listed and sold
including the home closest to the winery just this month. I — bear
with me. I introduced myself to the new owner and asked if he knew
about the — this evening. He said he didn't and seemed surprised the
selling homeowner kept it a secret. You should ask yourself why.
And that concludes the opposition for this specific agenda item.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. And I will close the public hearing part.
CM Moore: I'm — I'm sorry. The one that you didn't speak, can you confirm the
name?
Mayor Lockwood: Mr. Joseph.
City Clerk: Joseph, Jason Joseph.
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CM Moore: Is it Jason Joseph?
City Clerk: That's what the card says, Jason Joseph.
CM Moore: Okay. Thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: So, now I will open it back up to Council for any comments,
questions to staff. Um, obviously, you can ask the applicant if you
have any questions for the applicant, so. Anybody?
CM Cookerly: Well, I — I do.
Mayor Lockwood: Carol?
CM Cookerly: Some water first. Only state that I understand your passion. Um,
your energy is, certainly, admirable. And I don't think that anybody
appreciates a horse farm more than I do, um, with the exception of
perhaps some other council members. But I'm not sure that we hit
the nail on the head with why we're in this position. Issue in short,
I believe, is what was presented by the applicant regarding the farm
winery does not reflect the reality of operations of Painted Horse
Winery.
On May 6, 2019, you were asked, Ms. Jackson, what is the business
going to look like. And the response was, "As far as the winery was,
for what we are talking about here, first off, I'm a private estate and
I'm going to stay a private estate. My doors are not going to be open
9:00 to 5:00 where anybody can walk in. We will arrange wine
tastings with my master wine maker. Then, people can sign up for it
on a Thursday evening. You have to sign up and that's it. I'm not
going to be open 9:00 to 5:00. This is my home. This is where I
live."
"I understand your concern and don't want to shot myself in the foot
here but it's when we get to the other special use one that I think you
all need to come out and look at it because I do have other larger
events. That is where the issue is going to be, not with the wine
tasting. But that's not a part of this. I'm trying to clarify that is not
a part of the winery. That is part of the farm where the horses are.
They are two separate things. And the special events is going to be
for the farm where the horses are and that acreage, not for the
winery. There will not be any traffic change as far as the winery
goes."
But the reality is events and alcohol have co -mingled across the
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property. And even Georgia regulations said wineries can be — says
that, um, wineries must be confined to a tasting room. Ironically, my
best friend from Buck Head who lives in Buck Head, was invited
two Saturdays ago to an evening at Painted Horse Winery. I was
unaware of that. She said nice things about the event. She also said
there were some 100 people on the lawn with other people walking
the property enjoying wine. Again, the issue, in short, is what we
approved that evening a year ago was an alcohol permit for a wine
tasting event at a new Georgia winery.
We did not approve an alcohol permit or a bar for an expansive
attendance in this kind of a venue. It wasn't on the radar. It was not
what was presented. And I think before we get into discussing this
tonight as a council, it's important to revisit what our expectations
were because we have other parties that we have to be responsive to
because they had no expectations and probably didn't even know
about all of this. But I — I submit this respectfully that we have
responded at that time to what we were told it would be. And it has
not been that. And therein lies the problem for me. And I have some
suggestions but I will yield the floor to my colleagues.
Mayor Lockwood: Thank you. Laura?
CM Bentley: Um, I did spend a lot of time looking back at what — what we did
back in 2019. And I do want to, um, express my appreciation for the
invitation to come and see the — the winery and, um, the farm. This
is really complicated. And, um, it was helpful for me to see. Um,
this is not a situation that the council or the city has brought on itself.
It is a — it is a choice of introducing another use, which was the
winery. Um, we — when we approved the consumption on premises,
it was a very defined boundary. Uh, there were pictures of it. And
so, um, as I watched what we agreed to, um, I had to go back.
And I know that I envisioned a — a tasting room with tastings and
people deciding to buy your wine. And that is exactly what I support.
I support this ag use. Those grape vines are beautiful. And it's — the
setting with the farm is — is wonderful, too. But what we have is a
wine bar. And — and that was very clear to me when I visited on
Thursday. Yes, there's other great things going on. But as we all
know, whoever is in horses, alcohol is far more profitable. So, you
have the right to grow grapes and manufacture wines. However, this
council has, um, issued a consumption on premises permit.
And I would ask our city attorney and our manager, um, to discuss
the limitations of the consumption on premises permit that we
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agreed to. Um, I — I feel certain and after reading some legal
descriptions that the premises is defined as a definite closed or
petitioned location wherein alcoholic beverages are sold in the
immediate adjacent area. So, it —
Mr. Jarrard: Councilmember — Councilmember Bentley, that's — that's the way
the on premises consumption license reads in the code is that the
footprint for the use of the alcohol — the consumption of the alcohol
are to occur in a discrete premise being some sort of a structure as
well as the areas immediately adjacent to them. That is true.
CM Bentley: So, thank you for that. Um, so, the proposed use permit for the
agricultural related activities, I support that. It's consistent with our
land use plan. I think it's consistent with this council's vision. And
it's, certainly, consistent with your neighbors. Everyone — I have not
heard anyone have an issue with your agricultural activities.
However, when we are considering the concurrent uses of the farm
winery, the tasting room with consumption on premises, conditions
must provide separation and — and intensity limits to ensure the
health, safety, and welfare of consumers and the adjacent property
owners because we've just done something different than what you
have said that you've done for years and I know that.
I've seen the balloons on the mailbox for 15 years. And no one has
an issue with that. But now, this council is faced with trying to allow
you to continue to be agricultural with the introduction of alcohol.
And that's difficult. The single greatest variable here is the alcohol.
And I, um — I think that this council is willing to roll up our sleeves
and figure out a way to allow your agricultural activities to continue
as well as a farm winery. That is what we've heard from the
community and that's what I support.
Mayor Lockwood: Joe?
CM Longoria: Robyn, I've got a couple of questions. Um, so, right now, what
activity, um, that isn't already available by right as an AGI property
is being asked for in, uh, this request?
Ms. MacDonald: In this specific agricultural related —
CM Longoria: In U21-01 NC21-03.
Ms. MacDonald: Um, so, it would be, uh, the birthday parties, um, the camps, um,
like the summer camps, horse camps.
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CM Longoria: So, that activity isn't available by right?
Ms. MacDonald: Not in — no, because this is a use permit to allow it. So —
CM Longoria: I understand. But we've heard from a bunch of people that this is
activity that's been ongoing for some time.
Ms. MacDonald: And I cannot —
Mr. Jarrard: We have — we've also heard, I think, that — that there's a
disagreement over this and there is, uh, between the owner and, I
think, city staff. So,I mean, I — I — I agree with you that we have
heard that.
CM Longoria: I understand that. I just wanted to get the facts out that just because
there's been an inappropriate use of property or a flexing of the
zoning allowances doesn't mean that it's right. The fact that I've
been doing something wrong forever doesn't make it right. It
doesn't create allowable use just because we've been doing it for a
while.
Mr. Jarrard
Ms. MacDonald
I — I concur. I agree.
That's correct.
CM Longoria: Okay. So, the permit for the first item that we're talking about is to,
Actually, allow those activities that have been ongoing or
purportedly ongoing for some time.
Ms. MacDonald: That's correct.
CM Longoria: Okay. If we were to approve that use but not to, um — well, let me
reword this. The two variances, how are they important to the use
permit itself?
Ms. MacDonald: Um, I believe they're both very important to it because they're part
of the development standards of the use permit. So, they are needed.
CM Longoria: Right. So, let's just say if the 100, uh, foot setback activity, the Item
No. 1 was not granted, does that take away the ability for the events
to occur or for the activity to occur as described?
Ms. MacDonald: In my opinion, it would because many of the — if not all the accesses
cross through that activity area. And much of the parking does. So,
um, that might be used for that use.
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CM Longoria: Okay. This is the reason I'm asking this question because we're not
talking about building new parking areas, are we? Is this the existing
parking areas that would have the problems?
Ms. MacDonald: Correct. So, let me — yeah. Let me go to my, uh, site plan and I can
— give me a second. Okay. Uh, make it bigger. Um, so, here we have,
um, the orange is the property line, uh, of the property. So, it cuts
out the corner here. So, that's the orange. The 100 foot setback that
activity setback, as well as it happens to be that barns are supposed
to be 100 feet away as well, that's depicted here. Um, those are a
yellow with a red line. The yellow sometimes doesn't come but here.
It's the largest setback or demarcation here. So, that's 100 foot. So,
the blue is depicting driveways and entrances and parking — existing
parking spaces that are within that 100 foot activity area.
Okay. So, speaking to the first variance of the activity area so we
have parking and we have driveways. Um, and one could say that
even certain buildings, not knowing exactly what, um, their business
model is, where — where do the birthday parties, actually, occur, I'm
not sure about that. That's, um — but let's say if they occur, um,
around some of these barns or covered or fenced areas then, that
would be within the activity area. Um, so, that explains the activities
that are currently occurring within that setback.
CM Longoria: Okay. For the second item, the — the animal structures, are those the
pink boxes there?
Ms. MacDonald: Um, within — they are the pink. Not all of them. This is the house.
CM Longoria: Right, right.
Ms. MacDonald: This is a barn. But within the 100 foot, yes.
CM Longoria: No, the ones that are part of the variance.
Ms. MacDonald: Right. They are — they are the second part of the variance.
CM Longoria: So, I'm not asking you this question. I'm telling the council my
understanding is that what we're seeking to consider in this first item
is to provide those activities that we think, rumor has it, have
historically been taking place on the property and allowing some
variances to let the existing structure serve the purpose that it's
always served. Okay? This doesn't cover — none of this approval
would cover, um, any kind of event facility. So, it doesn't make it a
concert venue. It doesn't create those activities unless I misread the
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— the substance of this. So — so, I want to make sure we get to the —
the piece of this that gets to be what I think is controversial.
To me, the existing option to allow them to continue what they've
historically done, as we've heard from people both those in
opposition as well as those in support that activity isn't the activity
that's problematic. So, I wanted to find — find out if people were in
agreement with that or if people had problems with that kind of a
statement.
Mayor Lockwood: Paul?
CM Moore: Uh, Councilmember Longoria, I would like to respond to part of
that. I am in agreement with you that the activities that have been
happening on the property, historically, for the equestrian related
activities are probably appropriate. There's — except for — for one
that I'll address in a moment. If you — what — what's also not
addressed in the setback is also the fact that part of the riding ring,
at least one of them is in the 100 foot setback also if I'm not
mistaken.
Ms. MacDonald: Correct, yes. It's —
CM Moore: So, there are a couple of things that have to be considered in addition
to the parking, the housing of the animals. There's also the riding
ring that has to be considered. Those activities have gone on for a
long time. The birthday parties, um, probably have gone on without
issue. Those are the kinds of things I probably can support. But when
you layer on the other things that you've alluded to, that's when I
begin to take issue with some of the way things have to be blended.
I wasn't on council at the time the alcohol permit was granted. I went
back and watched that meeting very carefully.
What I watched, at one point, was Ms. Jackson take control of the
cursor so she could show where the wine related activities were
going to take place. And she stated there was going to be a clear line
of demarcation between the two facilities and that the events and
activities were not going to be co -mingled. She was not asking for
events for the winery. She was asking for events for the equestrian.
She was not going to be — parking was not going to be any different.
The traffic was not going to be any different. And yet, what we've
heard is there is a significant difference in traffic. There's a
significant difference in parking.
The parking is — for the winery is now blending into the, um,
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previously equestrian used parking.
CM Longoria: Right.
CM Moore: When you begin to layer on some of these other activities, I had the
good fortune of visiting as well last Thursday and went with an open
mind to see the kinds of things that both individually or collectively
these two, um, businesses would present. One of the things that, um,
struck me both good and bad was, um, something quite wonderful
in one way but very problematic in another. The part that was
wonderful in one way, and Ms. Jackson pointed out very proudly,
was a young man who was now part of her operation who was a
special needs individual.
And he is, apparently, blossoming in his role. I'm trying not to get
emotional about this but I — I also have a special needs niece who
has benefit — benefited tremendously from what's called
hippotherapy. When you introduce these children to large animals
where they have a chance to groom them, pet them, care for them.
And my — my niece also has blossomed as a result of that. So, that
part of the experience was wonderful. But where I became very
troubled by it was, this young man who appeared to be very much
in control of the significant animal was walking it from one part of
the farm winery — one part of the — the total space to another.
He was probably moving it from an activity area to a stall through
the parking area. That's where I became extremely alarmed because
you've got — on that particular day, there were probably a dozen
people or so, maybe more, who were enjoying glasses of wine out
in the winery portion. Well, actually, an extended winery portion
outside of what I would have been — outside of what I understood
the tasting room and the immediate proximity to the tasting room,
there was wine tasting or wine consumption going on well beyond
that.
But you then take that person who has been consuming wine in the
hot afternoon sun who is now about to enter a multi -ton vehicle who
may also engage with that same individual who appears to be very
much in control of the animal but you're now introducing a
motorized vehicle, an unpredictable large animal, a young man who
appears to be performing at a very high level of his required skills.
But I think it's a recipe for disaster. And that's where the two began
to come apart for me. I'll have more comments to make, I think, as
the evening goes on. But I would just propose to you that it's not as
simple as what was going on before when you begin to blend those
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two uses of that area.
CM Longoria: So, you're — you're concerned about safety is what you're saying?
CM Moore: After this particular demonstration, yes.
CM Longoria: Okay. I'm — I'm just looking to — because the council is going to
make decisions that either are going to allow the citizen to operate
her facility the way she claims she has been but do it legally, okay.
Or we're going to deny her that right. So, the second piece of the
business —
CM Moore: Not necessarily. Maybe offer conditions by which she might be able
to operate differently than she's doing today but still allow some of
those activities but just differently than she's operating today.
CM Longoria: Well, my point is that we're either going to say yes, you can do what
you've always done or you can't. By giving conditions that she
hasn't stated, we're saying no, you can't but you could if you did
this. Okay? So — so, I would agree with you. Um, the second piece
of business we'll get to in a second. But my inclination was to offer
up a motion to allow use. But if there's still discussion that needs to
take place on where we are in terms of just allowing existing use to
continue then, let's have that discussion.
CM Moore: I think there are lots of ways. It's — it's my objective tonight to find
a way to allow the historical use that are not a nuisance to continue.
It's a healthy equestrian, active farm in that way.
CM Longoria: So, what needs to change?
CM Moore: Well, I'll — I'll get there. I'm also interested in allowing a farm
winery that by right can take place.
CM Longoria: I don't want to talk about a farm winery because this is about
agricultural uses.
CM Moore: I agree with you. But it has to be considered when the applicant is
blending the two operations in areas that she had said, in order to
secure the permit, were not going to take place.
CM Longoria: Well, we can deal with that later because —
CM Moore: No, you can't.
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CM Longoria: Oh, the heck we can't. We gave her her permit.
CM Moore: You can't — can't —
CM Longoria: If she's outside of the proper operating conditions for her alcohol
permit based on what she told us and what we decided was going to
be applicable, we can take that away from her.
CM Moore: Bingo. And — and based on the current activity — and based on the
current activities that should happen. But I'm looking for a way to
make it work where we can provide some potential conditions where
both can take place and both can be successful.
Mayor Lockwood: You guys let each other speak [inaudible] [02:56:59].
CM Moore: I'm done. I'm done.
CM Longoria: Yeah. Well, I — I think people understand where we're sitting.
CM Jamison: I — I — I guess my question is, I'm kind of going to Councilmember
Longoria's point is how can we mix by right uses restrictions into
something — into a use permit that we're seeing today. Like I think
to your point, I think we're all in agreement on the ag uses, what
she's continuing to be doing because, Robyn, if you bring up that
map, I mean, if we deny those variances, we practically — she has to
rebuild. She has to like demolish her buildings that she's had for
years. So, I — I think they're — I think they're — I think we have two
separate issues here. And I — I think the first one we know how to
address.
It's the second one we don't know how to address.
CM Mohrig: Could I say something?
Mayor Lockwood: Hold on one second. Let Rick. Go ahead, Rick.
CM Mohrig: Okay. Um, where — where I kind of come down on this is listening
to the neighbors, listening to the owner, looking at — at what's gone
on, I think the — the farm and the existing uses that have gone on for
years from an equestrian standpoint have added value and are in line
with — with a lot of the things that we need to do or we'd like to — to
see go on within Milton. And I think I'm okay with — with trying to
condition and make — make something work. What — what hasn't
been there is she didn't have a by right. And I think that's where we
need to be clear from a definition.
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She didn't have a by right use to do some of these — these activities
that have been taken on. What we're considering is do we — which
of those or all of those do we — we allow? And I think we've heard
from the neighbors. Most of them, in fact, are — they're just fine with
what's gone on in the past. It's only what has happened since the
winery, since we passed that. And I agree. Looking back and I was
part of that meeting, what was presented to us is not what's been
happening as far as — as some of the things that have become a
nuisance from the neighbors' viewpoint. But as far as the equestrian
things, um, I don't have a problem with that.
And even — even trying to correct some of the — you know, bring in
line the nonconforming places that have played a part of this, I think
that's something we need to consider because I — I agree. If you just
Say no you can't — you got to move these buildings then, we're,
basically, changing something that has gone on for a long period of
time. I think the issue comes with the new activities that have been
going on. The amplified music, the ability — the — the, uh, wine
consumption not in the wine tasting room, which we originally
talked about. You know, we've heard different terms like the wine
tasting room lawn.
I — I don't know what that is. The — what we approved was not a
general facility for people to — to drink wine all over the property.
That was not the intent when it was presented to us. So, something
has been going on differently than what we approved. So, I think
tonight, we're considering how do we bring and allow, um, Ms.
Jackson to have the activities that she's been doing for years that,
actually, are a good, positive part. I think most people would support
within the community. But I think we do have to talk about what has
been causing the — the issue and what do we need to do to bring
things in line with what our expectation was and what we originally
approved.
Mayor Lockwood: Joe?
CM Longoria: Yeah. So, Robyn, do we have, um, documentation in the, um, meat
of this, uh, request that includes coverage of hours of operation and
includes coverage of maximum number of people allowed to attend,
that includes all of those things? And I think you provided sort of as
bullet items in your presentation but I didn't want to make too many
assumptions about what was or wasn't part of the, um, actual request
itself.
Ms. MacDonald: So, let me, um, see. That wasn't it. So, there are a set of, uh,
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conditions that are, um, part of your packet. I recommend that you
look at the, um, actual ordinance as they're numbered correctly. But
they're the same as what's at the end of the staff report. Um, and
they are what I reviewed.
CM Longoria: Okay.
Ms. MacDonald: Um, in this — in the, uh — in my presentation. So, first, it would be
the agriculture related activities, um, based on, you know, the list of
items that I talked about in the beginning. But also said that it's not
all inclusive. So, it's, um — and then, it would be, um, uh,
coordinating with the site plan, the revision on May 25 that was
submitted. And here are, um, the days and hours of operations.
These are based on, um, the applicant's request. Monday through
Saturday 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. —
CM Longoria: Okay.
Ms. MacDonald: -- Sunday 10:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. They originally asked until 8:00
p.m. And it was my, um — and I believe the city, uh, Planning
Commission, they agreed — they agreed with the 7:00 p.m.
reduction. And then, during the discussion and deliberation during,
uh, the Planning Commission, they made a, uh, reduction of the
number of the number of attendees. Um, and so, uh, the applicant
agreed to those. And, therefore, on 3B, that's it. There shall be no
more than a total of 25 attendees per day Monday through Friday
and no more than a total of 50 attendees on Saturday and Sunday for
camps, birthday parties, and educational events.
And then, um, speaking to — uh, this is what the applicant asked for.
Limited farm animal petting primarily associated with other events
no more than once per week for a limit of three hours, the barnyard
experience.
CM Longoria: Okay.
Ms. MacDonald: Okay? And then, lastly, um, a maximum continuous sound level of
50 dba with a maximum peak sound level of 55.
CM Longoria: Right.
Ms. MacDonald: I believe their request was a little bit higher than that. Um, but this
was, uh, based on staff's recommendation and what, uh, the
Planning Commission, uh, recommended.
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CM Longoria: Okay. So, can you tell me what changes occurred to the request and
to the — you know, what the applicant was asking for that caused our
opinion to change or staff's opinion to change on it being a good
thing and accepting it or it not being a good thing and — and
proposing denial?
Ms. MacDonald: So, from the staff's recommendation at Planning Commission then,
as a — it continued on, you mean, the change?
CM Longoria: Yeah, yeah.
Ms. MacDonald: So, basically, uh, looking at — at — not just looking at it individually
because I think that's what I was doing the first time around. And
then, I think as you, um — you live with it, you talk about it, you kind
of work through things deliberately, um, then, we found as staff that
as you put those different layers, you have the agricultural related
activities, you have the already existing equestrian, which are by
right, the boarding, the horseback riding, the lessons, um, then, you
also have the farm winery. Um, and then, at the time, um, as well as
the, uh, rural event facility. And then, those items that we'll speak
to later.
Um, obviously, the applicant, um, you know, they had, uh, requested
to withdraw the last one for the end of the outdoor event, which
would be the concerts. But still, even once you take away that last
use permit, you still have multiple different uses occurring on the
property.
CM Longoria: Right.
Ms. MacDonald: And so, that was, uh, the reasoning, uh, throughout the report why,
um, staff recommended denial.
CM Longoria: So — so, the bottom line is you — you start to consider how — the
blended activity. You know, it's the, um, intensity of use when you
combine all the things that were ongoing at the property that you
started — the staff had started to have concerns of that's really what
changed. So, rather than look at this in a vacuum as what it is, you
included it in the bigger context. Is that fair?
Ms. MacDonald: Correct, yes.
CM Longoria: Okay.
CM Bentley: And I have a comment along those same lines and for the very same
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reason. Um, that's why when I look at supporting the agricultural
activities, I have to consider the winery in — in those conditions. Um,
that would be the only way that I could support the agricultural
activities. Yes, they've occurred for years but there wasn't a winery
there. And there wasn't, more importantly, consumption on
premises. So, that — that has changed everything. And I think that I
can find my way. Um, you know, there was a lot of good material in
your staff report. Uh, legal counsel has given us a lot of good
information.
I think we can condition the agricultural activities, uh, separate that
— um, separate it from the winery activities and I'm prepared to do
that tonight.
Mayor Lockwood: I apologize, Carol. You — you were next.
CM Cookerly: I'm sorry. I'm — I'm just — let me see if — if this is logical. I think
we're all in agreement we want the farm to thrive. I don't think that's
ever been an issue. But I think we ought to skip over to the winery
for a moment because that has been like the genesis of where things
changed and that change has conflated the uses and — and therein
lies the problem. So, I'd ask our legal counsel, Mr. Jarrard, this
applicant — is the applicant, uh, business — farm winery business, is
that supposed to be confined to a tasting room?
Mr. Jarrard: Well, I'm trying to figure out if you're talking about as far as the —
the — the — the actual layout of the site or from the use. But my
thought is is that the farm winery connotes with it the production of
the grapes, the manufacture of the grapes into the wine. You've got
the consumption on the premise, the tasting, uh, and the packaged
sales. So, to me, that is all of those together, uh, come out of the
notion of the farm winery. As far as the location, uh, I believe what
I said to Councilmember Bentley earlier was the locational aspect of
this, at least the way I read our farm — farm winery code is that their
premise, on premise consumption, is a very specific, defined term.
And that premise includes, I believe, a structure and I believe that
the premise can include consumption, uh, within those areas
immediately contiguous to that premise. That's the way I — I view
our code.
CM Cookerly: And as you view our code or Georgia's code, whichever —
Mr. Jarrard: They — they do work together, yes, ma'am.
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CM Cookerly: Okay. So, is that consumption then on the lawn or walking around
taking a tour? Or is it confined to a structure?
Mr. Jarrard: I think in a perfect regulatory environment, it would be mostly
curtailed to the physical location where the — the alcohol is
purchased.
CM Cookerly: Okay.
Mr. Jarrard: Like — just like, uh, any other, uh — think of any other on, um,
premise consumption location. Uh, unless it's in a specific perhaps
mixed use retail where that's specifically allowed, if you get your
alcohol in a restaurant, uh, and then, you begin to walk away from
the restaurant and continue to consume, most of us would believe
that would be illegal.
CM Cookerly: Okay. Well, when you consider consumption in one spot and you
consider number of patrons, etc., we start to whittle away with issues
on the other side, which is being the setback, safety, etc., etc. So, it
really all gets down to what's happening with the winery. You
know, what — what does that look like? What does that operation
look like in — in the future. And I think if we — we put structure
around that, it's amenable to all parties or most all parties then, we'll
be able to easily deal with the farm side, which is consistent with the
growth and — and what we'd like to see on the farm side.
Mayor Lockwood: Paul?
CM Moore: Yeah. I — I think that that's a really important point that you just
made, Councilmember Cookerly, that — that the kinds of operations
that come along with the production of the wine in various — um,
what — what we've not talked about yet is the fact that there is a
commercial component of this to, actually, generate some of the
additional wine. On the — the tour that I took the other day, one of
the lines of questions I went down was what is the yield of the
winery going to be? And, um, Ms. Jackson shared that she had to
start over with the vineyards that she planted because according to
the University of Georgia folks that are helping, um, the first winery
was not done correctly.
So, she had to start over. So, at — at this point, there's a couple of
years before you're going to get the first yield from the first
plantings. So, it looks like a majority of the commercial or the wine
production is going to have to come from, uh, grapes or concentrate
or whatever from other locations. So, there's deliveries, um, you
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know, the movement of those barrels. There's a forklift on the site.
Um, and then, my — my — my discussion went further about what
will the likely yield be. And the — the gentleman who I think was
one of the wine makers shared that the likely total production this
year will be about, um, I think he said 48 barrels.
And I asked what the winery yield will be from production on the
property. And I asked when it was at full planting, which I think was
going to be around 6 acres, which is several years in the future. Um,
so, do — get the picture of 48 barrels, none of which can be produced
from current yield from the property, all of which has to come from
ingredients from somewhere else. That has to be — that's deliveries
and movement of large 50 gallon barrels that have, you know,
significant weight and whatever. So, there's a commercial aspect to
that. At the peak of what the gentleman shared with me was that the
peak yield from the 6 or so acres that will, ultimately, be planted will
be 12 barrels.
And their maximum capacity approximately every year will be
about 48. So, you're talking about 36 barrels still coming into the
equation that will be from outside resources, outside supplies.
There's a commercial aspect to this that has to be taken into
consideration. So, there's trucks coming in, forklift being moved,
uh, throughout the property to — to move those things. So, I think
there's a commercial aspect that should not be able to be blended
with the equestrian activities that are, historically, been non-event.
So, I think that you — again, I'll go back to the safety issue.
You have to make sure that the winery aspect that has to do with
different kind of activity that brings the different kind of safety
concerns is separated from the equestrian activity. So, I think you
can do that.
CM Cookerly: So, if all of that that you just mentioned was over by the house —
CM Moore: Yes.
CM Cookerly: -- where currently — then, you'd be good with that.
CM Moore: That's where I want it to go. Yeah. I think that — that there is ample
space currently dedicated per the permit to accomplish all of those
winery activities, including parking and receiving of the, um,
supplies separate and apart from the activities for the equestrian,
which goes back to the original line that Ms. Jackson showed on that
May of 2019 meeting where she said, "This is where the winery
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activities will be. This is where the equestrian activities will be."
CM Cookerly: Okay. So, but I'm curious about, uh, and anybody can respond, there
was a projected 10 attendees with the — the wine maker who they
would have a tasting. Now, we're at 100 people out on the lawn. So,
you know, this is — this is the crux of it. What is — what is the take
on quantity and structure of that?
CM Longoria: Well, what I'm worried about right now is that we're taking
independent variables and we're making them dependent on one
another. So, what language are you seeking to add, Paul, or do you
think would clarify your concerns in terms of this first request?
Because carving out buildings and saying that this equestrian — um,
I'm sorry, agricultural activity can only occur in these zones, I don't
- I don't know how we're going to put that in there.
CM Moore: Well, I — I do because Ms. Jackson has already said that 100% of
her equestrian activities can take place in an area separate and apart
from what we know — what she that night said was going to be the
Winery area.
CM Longoria: No, no, no. That's — that's not — I'm sorry. Maybe I
miscommunicated. This request is trying to make legal use that
historically has been occurring but was nonconforming. Okay. So,
what she's doing is she's taking the available uses for AGI and she's
just tacking on these. There's not too many places that I know of
where we say AGI property allowable uses include this but only in
this area or only at this intensity or only, you know — there aren't
many restrictions tied what we say legal use is or by right use. And
so, how are we going to work this in so that it makes sense in that
context?
Mayor Lockwood: Can I make an — a statement and this is an observation and I,
certainly, appreciate what everybody is saying and respect it. But
kind of going back to where you were going, Joe, let's face it. From
all the activities in the past or however many years, I haven't really
heard many complaints about that. I haven't really heard many
complaints about the — you know, the — the farm winery. The — the
real thing and I — I venture to say 99.9% of feedback that I've got
from anybody is, you know, large crowds, amplified music,
concerts, things like that.
Um, so, you know, again, I think we need to keep that in — in mind
what people, you know, are — are unhappy about and — and what
people are happy about. So, um, and again, I — I assume you're
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trying to pare it down. But overall picture, that's kind of where I'm
looking at.
CM Moore: Let me clarify though. I'm not trying to pare down anything with —
that the — the applicant has already suggested that she couldn't
operate under. She suggested, in the May meeting of 2019, that she
could operate her equestrian activities over here and her wine
activities over here. What's happened since that permit was granted,
she's blended the activities. So, you can't — you can't offer up the
equestrian part — or the equestrian, um, variances without taking into
consideration there has to be an extraction of a liberty that was taken
by the applicant to blend those two activities. I'm — all I'm asking is
that she go back to what she suggested she could originally operate
under.
That would take the parking for the winery out of the equestrian
activities. It's one of my biggest concerns.
CM Longoria: Okay. So — so, you have an idea of how you're going to craft
language that says that?
CM Moore: I do.
CM Longoria: Okay. Do you want to offer that up? Do we want to change — because
I want to vote on something right now because it makes the most
sense to me that we go ahead and approve this. I'm ready to approve
it with the two caveats that are included here but it sounds like you
want to add something. So, what do you want to add?
CM Moore: I want to add some things that I believe will bring it more in concert,
no pun intended, with what the community has suggested are their
biggest concerns.
CM Longoria: Okay. So, would you allow me to make a motion and then, we can
tack —
CM Moore: Not yet.
CM Longoria: Well, we can tack on — I think there's the things that you think are
needed to make that happen.
CM Moore: I think there's more discussion required before we get there.
CM Longoria: Okay.
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CM Moore: A formal motion. You're entitled to make a motion at any time you
like.
CM Longoria: No, I understand. I'm not trying to, you know, dig a hole and fill it
back up again. So, let's keep. going.
CM Cookerly: I think that in reference to the applicant, we just need to go through
a couple more layers.
Mayor Lockwood: ' Well, and I — I would say, too, and Ken, you guide me, but I think
in all fairness to the applicant, the applicant is here that you can ask
specific questions if you have specific items to — to get at least, you
know, respectfully get feedback on that.
CM Longoria: My thing is that if they stopped being a winery tomorrow, this permit
needs to cover what they're doing day to day. And this permit can't
have language about a winery in it because the winery is not
connected to this permit.
CM Moore: But as soon as you grant that variance that allows her to continue
those activities —
CM Longoria: Mm-hmm.
CM Moore: -- based on her current activities that happen every day right now.
she'll be in violation of the use of her permit.
CM Longoria: Why is that?
CM Moore: She's taking farm — she's taking her wine activities onto the area
that's not approved for wine activities.
CM Longoria: I'm a little bit confused on that but —
Mayor Lockwood: Well, I'd like to — I'd like — you know, dig more into it. And if staff
or — or legal has got any input on it, too, make sure we're clear on
that.
Mr. Jarrard: Well, I'll — I'll take a stab at it. The only —the thing I'm thinking is
is sort of a — a variation of what we're already discussed before with
respect to consumption being on the premise. I don't know if that's
what, Councilmember Moore, you were getting at. But, again, let
me just reiterate. Farm winery connotes to me the manufacturing,
the growing, uh, and then, the sales. Okay. So, it's sort of the three
big categories. I'm not talking about that in my analysis. I'm talking
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about your alcohol license. That's what's limited to the premise. So,
I just wanted to clarify that.
So, if we're talking about where on the property you do stuff, I'm
not taking about our zoning code. I'm talking about our alcohol
licensure where, you know, the city has robust regulatory authority
there. And, of course, we can change the rules with respect to our
alcohol code every year.
CM Bentley: So, I — I have a comment on that. I — I do have a problem if we grant
agricultural activities with the cross — cross concurrent uses. Okay.
So, I — I don't want to see children's birthday parties, uh, going on
in a barn where there is alcohol. I — I don't think that's responsible.
So, that's why I do feel like we have to separate these two by right
uses. I mean, there's a farm winery now and there's — we're — we're
wanting to support this — these agricultural activities. So —
Mr. Jarrard: I think what I'm hearing is — let's — let's assume there was not the
by right of the farm winery there. The Council would probably be
okay with this item with the variances it if just allowed to continue
the existing activities before the farm winery is — is introduced? Is
that correct? But now that the farm winery is introduced there, you
don't want to mix them.
CM Bentley: Right. Because what — what — what we saw in our visit, uh, were
people carrying, you know, wine around over in a direction going
towards, you know, where, you know, it's —
CM Longoria: Are — are you concerned about safety, too, Laura? Is that what
you're expressing?
CM Bentley: Absolutely.
CM Longoria: Okay.
CM Bentley: Absolutely. I don't know anyone that would insure a barn where
alcohol is part of the business plan. I mean, it's — it's — so, the
consumption on premises is the root of this issue.
CM Moore: So, we approved the consumption on premises.
CM Bentley: But it was contained.
CM Cookerly: But we approved it by the house where the farm winery is.
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CM Longoria: Okay.
CM Cookerly: And therein is our issue. It is supposed to be there.
CM Longoria: Okay. So, the solution to that problem is to, um, take away their —
their license to serve alcohol. The solution isn't to deny the permit
request for the — the — the business that they save they've been doing
forever and a day.
CM Cookerly: Joe, I think the issue is to try to find an opportunity for them to co-
exist in — in a manner in which they can make a living and — and,
you know, let's —
CM Longoria: So, look. The Council gives direction to our staff on how to manage
the city's business. It can't be part of our job on every single permit
to request to review the safety standards of a business. That has to
be inherent in the business itself. I don't know how to make wine.
But if somebody is a wine maker, they have to understand how to
operate a farm and how to safely allow the production of that wine
to occur. If they don't do that, they won't be in business for long.
Okay?
So — so, when a permit comes up for a farm to operate as a farm
winery, I can't sort of get into the details of their business and say
you need to do this for safety, you need to do that for safety because
they need to understand that themselves.
CM Cookerly: No. Last year, when these things were said about what operations
could be, you voted on it based on expectations.
CM Longoria: I agree.
CM Cookerly: If you had heard that there would be 100 people and this and that
and da -da, you probably would have said whoa.
CM Longoria: I agree. And that's why I'm saying —
CM Cookerly: So, you would have been voting on safety.
CM Longoria: No, no.
CM Cookerly: You would have been voting on these things so —
CM Longoria: No. No, no, no.
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CM Cookerly: I — I don't understand where you're going.
CM Longoria: That's why — so — where we're going is we're trying to conflate the
alcohol license with the agricultural use right now.
CM Cookerly: All right.
CM Longoria: And I don't want to do that.
CM Bentley: Well, I do.
CM Moore: Me, too.
CM Longoria: Well, but hold it. Then, we need to get an item on the agenda that
says review the Painted Horse's alcohol permit. That's what we
need.
CM Bentley: I think some of us have been saying that.
CM Longoria: Well — well, why isn't it on the agenda?
CM Cookerly: But the — but the point of tonight is to see if we can strike a balance.
CM Longoria: No, no. The point of tonight is either to approve or not allow the use
that they're asking for. The use that is documented as being
historical.
CM Cookerly: But you're looking at one piece of it.
CM Longoria: I can't connect everything together because otherwise, we'll never
get anywhere.
CM Moore: But you have to like — go back to the — the safety element for a
second.
CM Jamison: I just have a question for Ken. So, and if you can't answer this, you
can't answer this. But I think you see the predicament that we're in
here. And how do you put what the city says on their presentation,
which — which is a by right with the winery and all that stuff, how
do you restrict that under a use permit for AG equestrian uses?
Mr. Jarrard: Well, it's going to be, you know, an all else fails resort to the law.
So, what I would tend to say is this. A use permit is a use that is
allowed under the zoning designation but it's conditional. In other
words, it's something that might be appropriate but it's going to take
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the City Council making a specific determination that this use is
appropriate under these conditions. And that's what we're here
about this evening. We're not really here about the farm winery
because that's as of right use. They — they can already do that. We're
here to decide whether these other uses are appropriate with that —
those as of right uses allowed.
So, that's sort of the framework by which the Council needs to
approach this is to decide — and for instance, based upon what I've
been hearing, I'm just — if you all want to know my — my thoughts
what I'm hearing is —
Mayor Lockwood: Absolutely.
Mr. Jarrard: -- what I'm hearing is based upon the — the as of right uses, this
conditional use is inappropriate because you believe the intensity of
the use is too high based upon the as of right use. And so, therefore,
you think the conditional use is probably inappropriate. That's what
I'm hearing you all say. I mean, I don't mean to make your mind up
for you. This is up to you. But that's the way I — that's the analytical
framework I would approach it is — is okay, they've asked for
something extra, something additional, uh, over and above the as of
— I — I get it that they say they've been doing it a long time. But we
— I think we've already hoed that ground arguing —
CM Longoria: Right, correct. I agree.
Mr. Jarrard: It doesn't mean that — that I agree with that or the city agrees with
that. But whatever they can do without a conditional use permit,
they're going to continue doing in some variety. And perhaps that
may get regulated further. But I'm not sure the use permits as
requested are a fit based upon the discussion I'm here because we
believe the — the uses are too intense as it is based upon the traffic
and the noise and the congestion, etc. That's — again, that's just me.
That's — that's the way I hear it.
CM Jamison: I understand where you're going. I understand where you're going.
Mayor Lockwood: Paul?
CM Moore: I would — I would add to that, Ken, that we — staff's recommendation
this evening was, basically, to deny all these things because of
intensity of use. That's — that's a pretty bold, powerful statement
that we're being asked to consider is that staff's recommendation
after consideration of all of these characteristics of what we're
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seeing both in use by right and use by permit is too intense. And
they're suggesting that we deny everything. What I'm hearing from
Council this evening is — or several of us is that we're trying to find
a way to modify the intensity where we can allow all those things to
co -exist with possibly some additional conditions.
We've heard the neighborhood — the neighbors talk about intensity
of use. We know that the applicant has acknowledged the intensity
of use because they've put police cars there to control traffic. We've
heard the members whose — members of the community who spoke
in favor of the winery talk about the traffic concerns as well
acknowledging that they were in support of the winery and the
equestrian but concerned about traffic and volume and the blue
lights and — and those kinds of things. So, I — I think there's a way.
Um, Councilmember Bentley and I had talked about some potential
conditions by which might be acceptable to Council.
And I would encourage, at some point, Councilman Bentley —
Councilperson Bentley share those for consideration.
CM Longoria: So, just real quick, the intensity of use issue is, obviously, there.
That's — that's why we're in this discussion, right. But the intensity
of use is not connected with the activity that's part of this permit. In
other words, the — the noise level is supposed to be 55 decibels max,
50 sustainable. The maximum number of people has to be, you
know, 75 at this time and 100 at this time. So — so, this isn't
sponsoring the intensity of use. The intensity of use is coming from
somewhere else. Okay.
CM Moore: But the intensity of use from somewhere else is flowing into those
activities and it affects the safety, the welfare, and the —
CM Longoria: So, we need to go do something about whatever that is.
CM Moore: We do.
CM Longoria: Okay.
CM Moore: I believe that there is a blending that's necessary of conditions to
make this work.
CM Longoria: So, what you want to do —
CM Moore: Or you can approve the by right and the, um, variance requests for
the equestrian activity, the, um, uh, equestrian related activities and
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offer some conditions on the wine related activities, the
consumption on premises to make them co -exist in a safe and
healthy manner where both businesses can thrive.
Mayor Lockwood: Well, I would say if you've got some conditions you'd like to
discuss, feel free. Um, I would also say, you know, out of respect
and also any questions for the applicant, you know, to run some of
those by. But, uh — okay, so.
CM Moore: It might make sense to propose the conditions then and we'll see.
CM Bentley: Okay. Um, so, and this — this is information that has come from our
legal counsel and, um, Mrs. Smith, neighbors, um, uh, this is the,
um, U21-01 conditional use permit for agricultural activities to
include horse camps, summer and other school break camps,
agricultural farm, equine base educational activities, farm tour,
limited farm animal petting, birthday parties, children 14 and under.
These are separated. Interactive wine classes, wine making classes,
wine pairing classes, and the note that goes with those is within the
confines of the tasting room. Prohibited activities for profit. Horse
shows, zoo animals, exotic animals, kennel, overnight camps,
[inaudible] [03:32:53], live music, BYOB.
Alcohol sale consumption is restricted to the on premises defined
tasting room area. Conditions associated with the approval of U21-
01. Uh, there's a slight adjustment here. Hours of operation for ag
related activities 9:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. This is straight from the, um,
agreement at the Planning Commission limited to a total of 25
attendees per day Monday through Friday and 50 total attendees per
day on Saturday and Sunday. Sound maximum 45 dB at the property
lines. The 100 foot activity setback on all property lines.
Consumption on premises is, once again, limited to the tasting room
and adjacent outdoor patio area, whatever adjacent that is
determined to be.
Mr. Krokoff: Immediately adjacent.
CM Bentley: Immediately adjacent. The basement tasting room is to be closed,
correct, on 9/28/21? Is that right?
Mr. Krokoff: The end of September, I believe was in the letter. I don't remember
if it was the 28`}'.
CM Bentley: We're going to assume that, uh, because mixed use is prohibited in
AGI. The new tasting room must be subordinate to the primary
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residence, must be contained within the consumption on premises
permitted area, must consist of four walls, not open air, is subject to
the approval of the community development director to comply with
all city regulations. Alcohol consumption is restricted to the tasting
room and immediate adjacent area and is limited to 50 persons at
any one time during the tasting room hours. Background music
cannot exceed 45 dB at the property lines and must originate within
the confines of the immediately adjacent to the tasting room.
Background music for the tasting room area cannot be advertised or
offered as a free concert or otherwise promoted as the primary
reason to come to the tasting room. Retail consumption on premises,
tasting room hours Thursday 1:00 to 6:00 p.m., Friday and Saturday
1:00 to 8:00, Sunday 1:00 to 5:00. Winery visits operations and
production are 9:00 to 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday. All
parking for the tasting room must be contained in the area for which
the consumption on premises license was issued. And as far as the
variances for the agricultural activities, approved for the wood
pavilion.
The wood pavilion can only be used for approved agricultural
activities, not for wine tasting or consumption. Variance approved
for the equestrian riding arenas. The riding arenas are for equestrian
use only. Variance approved for the driveway. The driveway is to
be used only for the ingress and egress for equestrian patrons.
Variance approves to allow the structures housing animals. And
then, the final one, which, uh, is denied is to allow parking in the
100 foot activity setbacks, except for the ADA parking closest to
Bethany Way.
Mayor Lockwood: I'd just — first, I want to just clarify and make sure that this came
from legal or both?
CM Bentley: No, I just — yeah.
Mayor Lockwood: I'm — I'm assuming it's — it's facts that you've got pulled from each
one of the —
CM Bentley: Yes. Yeah. From staff report —
Mayor Lockwood: -- this document is not —
CM Bentley: No. So, those are — that's — as I look and this is just my motion —
Mayor Lockwood: These are suggestions.
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CM Bentley: Yeah. Those are my — that's my motion that I'm comfortable with
because when I look at the whole property and want to support the
agricultural use and the wine — and — and — and the winery but we
now have consumption on premises. And, I mean, that changes
everything as far as the activities are — are concerned. And that's —
that's nothing that we did. That is what the applicant has brought to
us to consider. So, separating just as staff did, first they separated
them and approved what we've gone through here tonight. Then,
they combined their concurrent uses and they denied it. So, these are
the conditions under which I'm comfortable approving the
agricultural activities.
CM Moore: Councilmember Bentley — Bentley, was that your motion that you
just shared?
Mayor Lockwood: I don't know that we've —
CM Jamison: I'm just asking.
Mayor Lockwood: -- have a motion or clarification.
CM Bentley: No. I — I — I — I read it. I mean, and I know that you're not prepared
to — I — I know that you all want to discuss it. But I can tell you I
gave that a lot of thought based on my, um, visit, based on my, um,
you know, being deeply involved with this situation for a year. You
know, visiting, hearing, being involved with the stakeholder group,
going to neighbors, trying to understand the situation. And I'll leave
it at that. And I think that we owe this, um, use permit more
discussion.
CM Jamison: I — I have a question that Ken is — uh, I agree with a lot of the stuff
that Laura says. You know, I agree with a lot of it. My question and
my issue is how is — because we've done zoning a long time. This is
the first time we've ever put restrictions on a city stance, a by right
use. How is any of this — how is some of that in — how is this
enforceable?
Mr. Jarrard: Well, it depends, obviously, if it's enforceable or if it's intended to
be enforceable based upon what the Council approves some of all of
it following some discussion. I think the mayor mentioned, at one
point, he might -- or at least there might be some interest in having
the applicant come up and address some of that or ask maybe some
specific questions related to that. As far as the enforceability of it,
um, you know, Councilmember Jamison, that remains to be seen. It
— it is, um, a lot of conditions pertaining to the as of right use. But I
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understand the purpose of it is because of the blending.
Uh, it's not lost on me and I do understand the reason for that. Um,
there are a couple of things, I'm hearing this new tonight, I'd like to
think about, uh, and as far as — as what I think the city's position
might be. But I — I understood it. I understand the objective of it and
the goal it's attempting to accomplish. Uh, and I think I'd like to
listen to a little more discussion, um, and see — and see where the
Council gets to on it.
Mayor Lockwood: Uh, yeah. And I — I — I certainly, you know, understand, too, where
you're coming from. Um, as Peyton said, we haven't done — done
anything like this in a long time. And I — I'm trying to think back if
we've ever had a situation like, typically, sometimes we may be to
where there's a couple of items and, you know, we might say —
somebody makes a motion and says well, if you would agree to
doing 75 foot buffer instead of a 50 blah, blah, blah and the rest of
it's as is. And you can as the applicant and they might say yeah, I
can live with that or I can't. But I think this is a lot of information to
digest that I'm assuming applicant hasn't even heard of.
CM Cookerly: But is it though? I mean, is it really that much to digest? Because if
you follow the Georgia regulation that it's a tasting room and you —
I'm going to go back to back. If you start with that, as I listened to
the motion of ingredients some of which I have not heard, if you're
in a tasting room and it's a certain size, it's agreeable to the city,
subordinate to the house then, you're going to have a certain number
of people, which is going to impact a certain number of parking. It's
going to be on that side of the property, which is where the alcohol
license is. The music was low the other day.
And — and Ms. Jackson asserts that that's typical for the wine side
of the business, not when she has special events, which are not on
the table. So, that would be confined to the tasting room. So, how
do those things not all check off? And — and — and that's where the
alcohol permit is so you're not on the agricultural side. So, they can
live happily ever after. Am I being too simplistic?
CM Longoria: Well, these modifications are only dealing with the way the situation
is today. Okay. If what we're trying to do is regulate by right use,
there's plenty of other by right uses that are available for AGl . What
happens if tomorrow, some of those become relevant? We can't do
anything about them. So, that's why we need to separate these things
into the right pieces. If we're trying to control alcohol then, it needs
to be associated with whatever vehicle grants an alcohol license. If
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we're trying to control kids' birthday parties then, it needs to be
associated with whatever thing is managing birthday parties. So, this
permit request is about agricultural use.
It's not about alcohol consumption. So, that's why I'm trying to
tease these pieces apart and say this use is okay, this use is to intense.
We thought that it would be okay last year when we granted it. But
now, in retrospect, we probably should have a little more control
here. So, we go back and we offer up those controls where they
belong, not tack them onto something somewhere else.
CM Cookerly: Councilmember Longoria, I respect your position but you're
backing some of us into a position of then wanting to forfeit the
alcohol license when that's not necessary. I mean —
CM Longoria: When you say forfeit the alcohol —
CM Cookerly: Well, get rid of the alcohol license and —
CM Longoria: No, no, no, no. I'm saying modifying it.
CM Cookerly: But you are. Huh?
CM Longoria: I'm saying modify it.
CM Cookerly: But — but I — I'm not sure that that's necessary to modify it. I mean,
I—
CM Longoria: You guys are saying it's necessary.
CM Bentley: No, no, no. No.
CM Cookerly: Not at all.
CM Bentley: We're — we're using land use here. We had a conversation when we
gave the — the alcohol permit, it was a box checking exercise. They
meet these requirements, correct? Okay. And then, we decided if
things became a nuisance or got out of hand, we would do — we
would put in controls with land use. Is this not — these special use
permits, is this not a land use discussion? It is. Thank you.
CM Cookerly: And — and by — by working it through that way, we're trying to find
co -existence.
Mayor Lockwood: Again, I think what's, you know — what I'm observing both on both
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sides and, I think, 90% of the people would agree, 99 whatever that
we've heard from and everybody's concerned, it's really boiled
down from it wasn't the existing uses. It wasn't a — a farm winery
per se. I know the other day, I was up in the mountains at our cabin
and I ran into the guy that owns Stonewall Vineyards and I started —
I said, "Hey, we love your place." He said, "Oh, thanks," and all
that. And I said, "But I got to tell you, you got me in a lot — a lot of
heat." He said, "What are you talking about?"
I said, "You know, we'd come over and we've sat there and done
some wine tastings, 30, 40 people there, maybe a guitar player
sipping some wine, looking at beauty," I said, "So, we passed on,
you know." But I said, "Unfortunately, then it's grown to concerts
and, you know, lots of cars and traffic and whatnot." And, again, I
think that's the crux of the problem. I don't think anyone has
complained about our very few that there is wine or wine tastings
there or the other activities. So, I understand, you know — I
understand your point, Joe. It's like let's look at this and I'm
guessing if this was in front of us and it wasn't the other issues, this
would probably pass in a heartbeat.
But then, we're not going to have — we don't really have the
opportunity to control the other stuff in a — in a — and it's something
the application is before us. So, you know, we're using this to blend
the two. So, you know, I kind of — go ahead, Peyton but then, I'll
ask, you know, Ken, too, if you have some — some direction and —
and also, I'll ask the question nobody else wants, you know, to the
applicant or — or Ellen, if she wants to speak to any of this stuff, too,
to, uh, you know, give input of what the applicant would say about
these.
CM Jamison: I just have a question for Ken because I think what — there's — there's
two sides here that we both understand. We both — all of us
understand the issues. And I think it's do we control it with the
alcohol permit or do we try to control it under this. And I legally
want to do the best thing to put the city forward and all the taxpayers,
um, in the right, you know — put that forward. So, how does the
alcohol licensing work? Um, I know we've been discussing that.
When was this approved? Is it up for renewal every year?
Mr. Jarrard: It is.
CM Jamison: And how does that renewal process work?
Mr. Jarrard: It's an annual renewal. And, uh, I think the law is fairly clear that,
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um, alcohol permits are a privilege, not a right. Uh, and that
governments, not just Milton, but every government has the right to
change rules with respect to alcohol and individuals that want to sell
and be purveyors of alcohol in your jurisdiction have to comply with
those rules. It really doesn't work — the — the whole grandfathering
issue doesn't really work with alcohol. So, it's a different — it's a
different sort of — of cause.
CM Jamison: So, it's every year it comes up.
Mr. Jarrard: Correct.
Mayor Lockwood: And, typically, we probably haven't changed, you know —just tweak
them every year. But you're saying there's an opportunity —
Mr. Jarrard: Some jurisdictions are different. Some jurisdictions are a perpetual
exercise of tweaking their alcohol code. Some — some don't, of
course. Milton just went through a fairly significant rewrite.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay.
CM Longoria: Yeah. But I'd just point out that if they're renewed every year, we
don't talk about them every year. So — so, there's a renewal process
that takes place with approval, um, implied in the original approval
from the Council.
Mr. Jarrard: To say approval is expedited.
CM Longoria: Yeah.
Mr. Jarrard: Okay.
Mayor Lockwood: But we did — we did, you know, this last time so we definitely talked
about that.
CM Moore: Yeah. But in — in — in consideration of that thought, have you had
any other complaints as significant as we've heard about this alcohol
permit from any other restaurant or entertainment —
CM Longoria: Well, that's a good question. That's a good question. Even — well,
let me answer the question. How many complaints prior to the
winery opening up as a — as a farm winery with these testing events
occurring, prior to that, how many complaints did we have on the
property?
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Mr. Krokoff. I'm not aware of any.
CM Longoria: Okay. After that, how many complaints have we had?
Mr. Krokoff: Well, you get some of them every weekend.
CM Longoria: So, 100, 500?
Mr. Krokoff: Not 500. Um, so if this has been going on a year and a half, I would
say 25 if I had to guess.
CM Longoria: Okay.
Mr. Krokoff: I don't know the exact number.
Mayor Lockwood: Well, we get some — we get emails and, you know, calls and all.
CM Longoria: I know. I know. Trust me, I — I understand. I read those emails.
Mr. Krokoff. I was talking about calls. I apologize.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Calls or official complaints, okay.
CM Moore: My point remains the same is we haven't had any reason to not
renew some other licenses in the past or permits in the past because
there weren't any complaints about it.
CM Longoria: Right.
CM Moore: So, this one has warranted review because there are additional
variances that are asked for to allow the operation to continue. There
were some activities that have been expressed concern about by the
neighbors where it's becoming a nuisance. I think those things are
appropriate for consideration in this — in this hearing. And if they
were to continue, they would be reviewed under the appropriate
procedure as to whether or not the permit would be renewed.
CM Longoria: Okay. Well, I know we've got another item for the same property
that is going to require equal amount of discussion. So, I'm going to
go ahead and make a motion to approve Agenda Item No. 21-160
with the conditions as documented by staff.
CM Jamison: I'll second that.
Mayor Lockwood: I have a motion for approval — for approval, uh, with the conditions
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staff has stated from Councilmember Longoria with a second from
Councilmember Jamison.
CM Longoria: And I would say that the reason I'm just basing it on what staff
submitted isn't with any disrespect for the work that's been done
and to try to understand what the complexities of the issue are. It has
to do with us putting things in the right bucket. And I really believe
that this permit needs to be considered on — for what it's asking and
not something that's outside of its domain.
CM Cookerly: So, before we do that, may I ask you a question?
CM Longoria: Yeah.
Mr. Krokoff: This is the discussion part.
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah, all right. So, we — we have a motion and second. And now,
we have discussion.
CM Longoria: Right.
CM Cookerly: So, how would you see control through the alcohol permit? What
would that look like to you?
CM Longoria: Well, first of all, the — the — the challenge that we're having is that
— is that we've got these sort of open air concerts that are occurring
because there is a wine tasting capability based on the farm winery's
operation as a tasting facility/quasi alcohol serving permit because
they're allowed to serve alcohol that's not their own that includes
wine and distilled spirits and beer.
CM Mohrig: No, I don't think — do we —
CM Longoria: Okay. I do take it back. Is this thing on?
CM Mohrig: Yeah. I don't think we have distilled spirits and — yeah.
CM Longoria: Oh.
Mr. Krokoff. It's just wine.
CM Longoria: It's just wine? Okay. Well, then it's just wine. So, but the point is —
the point is they didn't have that capability prior to us granting them
an alcohol license. The alcohol license is the catalyst that creates the
intensity of use, okay. So, if we take away the alcohol license or if
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we change the alcohol license parameters to operate within — under
the conditions that we think the intensity of use is controlled then,
we've solved that part of the problem.
CM Moore: By your motion, you have removed all the opportunity we have to
put some of those controls in place.
CM Longoria: Why is that?
CM Moore: Because you're not giving any consideration to the way —
CM Longoria: Well, the next — the next motion comes up —
CM Moore: -- the next one has nothing to do with on premise consumption.
CM Longoria: Neither does this one.
CM Moore: It does when they're blending where they're using the winery
activities when it's bled into the equestrian activity area. You've
missed that point from the beginning and you're still missing it.
CM Bentley: And it's the intensity. It's — it's the intensity on the property. So —
CM Jamison: But I think is, um — to Councilmember Longoria's point is to control
the intensity is to control it through the alcohol permitting process.
CM Cookerly: Can I ask what does that look like?
CM Jamison: I mean, so I — I think —
Mayor Lockwood: To that point, I'm going to ask, you know — ask staff to Ken —
CM Jamison: I — I think to put the city in a better legal standpoint moving forward,
I believe that is probably in the right direction. That's just my
opinion.
CM Cookerly: But you don't know whether that's doable.
Mayor Lockwood: Well, let me ask this question and I'm going to go back and — and
this is looking at it from a simple, you know, high level. Ken and —
and — and staff, please feel free. You know, if we looked at this or
the next — next item that we have and, again, it goes back to what I
said earlier that really, how can we control concerts, no concerts, no
amplified loud music and bring this back to where — what everybody
seems to be okay with? I know there's some give and take there. I'm
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sure — you know, obviously, that's going — you know, we'd love to
have more.
But I'm asking the question based on — on this item right here or the
next one, is there a way to do that to at least get rid of what 90% of
the complaints and issues are?
CM Moore: May I make a point before you answer that? In the process that were
presented, I think I can say this legally — in the process that we were
presented for an opportunity to address these, 'one of the suggestions
is that we entertain an omnibus solution. I think Councilmember
Bentley has presented an omnibus solution this evening. And now,
we're about to walk away from that because of a motion that does
not comprehend all of the considerations that we were asked
originally to consider both by the applicant and by staff and by our
own discussion. We're off — we're — we're — we're about to throw
away a really good opportunity for an omnibus solution.
Mayor Lockwood: And so you know, that's not what I said. I — I said where is the —
CM Moore: Yeah.
Mayor Lockwood: -- the room between this or the next one.
CM Moore: That's why I'm — I'm — I'm offering up for additional consideration
to your point, Joe. I'm — I'm building on what you're suggesting is
you're asking for how — how can we get there. And I'm suggesting
it was offered to us. An omnibus solution was a proper — a proper
consideration to get us there.
CM Cookerly: I want to read what our attorney said — Ken said last year on this
same night on May 6. "Mr. Mayor, if I may, we had a discussion
about this today and what might be part of the confusion is we were
thinking land use as opposed to permitting. And so, this is simply a
permit. You know, typically, alcohol permits are one of those things
we have a number of boxes to check and if they all — all the boxes
get — if all the boxes check, they get the permit. Land use is totally
different to the extent that this begins to take on the character of land
use, which is what has transpired. The Council is uncomfortable,
obviously. We have all sorts of tools to begin to rein that in and
tweak the allowable use out there."
That is the same discussion we had earlier. That's land use. That's
what this first one is about. And if — if you move away from that and
you start messing around with the alcohol permit, nobody knows
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what that looks like. And we don't want to jerk the alcohol permit.
These were relatively benign to try to have those co -exist.
CM Moore: And that conversation went further with an affirmation by
Bernadette who spoke that same evening on that same topic and
offered up those same land use considerations as controllable — as
controls for inappropriate use.
CM Longoria: So, is the list of things that Councilmember, um, Bentley read just
moments ago, is that the omnibus solution that you're referring to?
CM Moore: Yes.
CM Jamison: But I thought an omnibus solution was when both parties greed
beforehand.
CM Mohrig: No.
CM Moore: But in that effort to reach an omnibus solution between the
applicant, the, uh, neighbors, and the city, it became apparent by the
applicant's response that there was not a willingness to get to that
point. And the — and the community recognized it as well and said
they don't see any reason to continue the conversation because there
wasn't a solution available.
CM Longoria: So — so, I would agree that it's a list of items. We shouldn't call it
an omnibus solution.
CM Moore: Okay. I'll give that up, omnibus. But I think it's a comprehensive
way to look at all these things that we're being asked to consider.
Throw away the word omnibus.
CM Longoria: Okay. So, how long would it take us to vet the list? Because —
CM Bentley: We're still having a discussion on a motion.
Mayor Lockwood: Well, but I mean —
CM Longoria: Yeah. That's pertinent to the motion.
Mayor Lockwood: We can read down the list and the list could be, you know, you have
the right to tweak your motion, too, if — if —
CM Bentley: But your motion was to approve — to approve.
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CM Longoria: Yeah. Well, okay. I'll stop talking then.
CM Cookerly: Do you want to withdraw so that we can continue discussing?
CM Longoria: No. Nope, I just as soon vote on it.
CM Cookerly: Okay.
CM Mohrig: If I can say something. I guess the question is, Joe, what you
approved, I'd have to go back and look at all the conditions because
staff — staff suggested denial. We're suggesting approval with
conditions. Does it capture all the stuff that — that Laura had kind of
detailed? Because the details are where we get in trouble. If we don't
detail it, we get what we've had — what we've had happening
because we did spell out what we wanted or what we thought was
going to happen. That's not the way the business has been run.
That's why we're here with this discussion.
CM Longoria: The list that was read was over and above what staff already had
documented.
CM Bentley: And — and, certainly, understand your discomfort with — I mean, or
just wanting to, you know, go through and look at all of these
different components, which I'm willing to sit here all night and do.
But, um, you know, if — if the applicant is not willing to entertain
these conditions then, you know, that's something else that we just
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah. That's what I want to — I want to — I want to get to because,
again, like I said, you know, we've never had a situation like this
where I almost feel like, and all due respect to this, but if we just
made a motion with these and passed it, the applicant wouldn't even
know what we're — you know, what — what they've got, uh, decided
on. Um, you know, to — all right. So — so, we've got a — we've got a
motion to —
CM Moore: That is our right to do that.
Mayor Lockwood: What's that?
CM Moore: That is our right to do that.
Mayor Lockwood: I know but I'm just trying to — um, but then, does that just put the
city in a whole big legal — and the taxpayers and the citizens because
everything gets dug out, you know.
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CM Moore: To all those — to all those points —
Mayor Lockwood: So, to Joe to the motion, the second is on — it's on the table. I'll just
say I — I would have a hard time voting for it just as — as read. But,
you know, again, if it could — could — could take care of the problems
that what we've really been dealing with and what we've all heard
that people are unhappy with, I certainly, you know, could — could,
uh — could support it. But I don't know that we can get there, um. It
may not. But as — as we're sitting right now, just to give you my
opinion and —
CM Longoria: No, again, I — I haven't heard anybody say that the activity covered
by this request is activity that they don't want to see happen, okay.
No one had said that. In fact, we had people on both sides of the
discussion offer up — we have no problems with the agricultural use.
No problems whatsoever.
CM Moore: Joe, which part is hard for you to understand when you — when
we've said repeatedly that you can't consider that by itself when the
applicant is blending the activities from one part of the property to
the other? You cannot ignore that the applicant is using this area to
conduct activities that are inappropriate to be able to approve that
straight up. You have to look at all of it.
CM Longoria: When you're saying that they're inappropriate activities that implies
that they're somehow breaking a law or a rule.
CM Moore: They are. They are taking — they're extending the use of their winery
approvals for the use permit area to take their parking and activities
into the equestrian area. That's not approved. There's a very finite
area of the property that's approved for the alcohol permit.
CM Bentley: It wasn't what we talked about when we approved the alcohol
consumption.
CM Cookerly: It's not what was pledged to us.
CM Longoria: Uh, but hold it. Are — are they — did we put language in our approval
that is now not being followed?
CM Bentley: We did not because when we approved the consumption on premises
permit, we were told it was simply a — a — a box checking exercise
and that the day would come —
[Crosstalk]
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CM Cookerly: We were told a number of people and how it would be run. That's
what we based it on.
CM Longoria: Okay.
CM Cookerly: That's what we all nodded our heads.
CM Bentley: The day would come that we could condition —
CM Cookerly: . And this is that day, Joe.
CM Longoria: No, no, no. This is to my whole point. You're saying that what we
assumed was going to be true when we granted the alcohol license
turns out not to be true. And so, therefore, we can go back and walk
back on the alcohol license and say, "Hey, look, this is not what we
thought. You don't get an alcohol license to do that." Then, their
petition needs to become okay, well, if you don't like that can we do
this. And that's when we get to have more control and document in
very rigid language what parts of the property the alcohol permit
pertains to and how we isolate the traffic between the two.
CM Moore: By the way you've made your motion, you're not allowing us to say
to the applicant that you cannot continue to do the activities on the
equestrian area where these — where these variances are about to be
granted. And that's not appropriate.
CM Longoria: But I can take away their alcohol license whenever I think that
there's a problem.
CM Moore: Are you going to do that tonight?
CM Longoria: Well, do we need to do it tonight?
CM Moore: You're forcing me into that kind of a —
CM Longoria: Well, no, no, no. Really, Paul, do we need to do it tonight? Is it that
grave of a situation?
Mr. Krokoff: Let — let — let me —
Mr. Jarrard: We're not going to do that tonight.
Mr. Krokoff: No. Of course not, of course not.
Mr. Jarrard: We're going to have to follow a legislative process to modify the
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code. And the check — the box checking, that's true. But it's the box
that's checked is the key. And the box that gets checked is our code,
which you draft. My — my only purpose — my only point on the box
checking is is that any sort of a regulatory licensure like that, the
Council gets to set the terms of the license. And then, if the applicant
meets those terms, they get their license. But those terms can be —
can be permittable depending upon the sort of activity. So, I just
want to clarify that. And I know we were being just — having some
rhetorical discussion, but.
CM Cookerly: So, Joe, the way that this is written is if it's approved in this way
then, parking is allowed in the setbacks. That parking services the
farm winery. The parking is over on the equestrian side. We're
trying to use land use in a respectable way to come to terms with
what we were told that has not come to pass. It is — something very
different has come to pass.
CM Bentley: And we — we don't want to shut down the winery. I don't want to —
CM Cookerly: And it was told to us that land use is a perfectly acceptable way to
curtail activities if they're unacceptable. So, you can argue it all
night but why drive it to the alcohol permit? I mean, why drive it
that far?
CM Longoria: Well, to me, because it puts control in the right places. But by — the
idea behind this motion was to make lawful what already exists.
Okay. The parking is already in the buffer. Parking takes place there
already. Okay.
CM Cookerly: Is that fair?
CM Longoria: No. It's not fair.
CM Cookerly: Well, then why are you going to pass it?
CM Longoria: Because I heard the people that — that are next door to these
properties say, "Hey, look, we have no problem with that use. We
have no problem with what's going on there."
CM Cookerly: But you've heard other people say that they do.
CM Longoria: No, no, no. I've only heard people say that they have problems with
concerts and 500 people showing up on the property on a Friday
night.
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CM Moore: No. But if you also read all the emails from the community, it talks
about the parking and the ability to see it and the traffic. Those are
all winery related.
CM Cookerly: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Without —
Mayor Lockwood: And those are all numbers, too. Those are numbers.
CM Moore: It is. It's all about the numbers.
CM Cookerly: For the farm winery, you have 100 people.
CM Longoria: Can I suggest this —
CM Cookerly: That's parking in the setback, Joe.
Mayor Lockwood: Go ahead, Joe.
CM Longoria: Respect. It's starting to feel like it's everybody against Joe and Joe
is somehow irrational. So, I will either give up for a vote so that we
can just squash this right now — I don't want to withdraw my motion
but we can, certainly, squish it. And — and somebody else can
attempt to come up with a motion that we can vote on.
CM Jamison: One quick question and, Mayor, I apologize. When you were
talking, why did you say you couldn't support the motion on the
table? Did you say that or not?
Mayor Lockwood: I said I'd have a hard time as stated. If the motion could be amended
to where what I see is the biggest problem is the concerts and the
number, if we could limit the number of people. I — I personally
don't feel like I should get in the middle of somebody's business
and tell them, you know, you put product here, you don't do this. I
think even some of these folks said that's up to the business.
CM Jamison: How do we limit the number of — how do we limit the number of
people then?
Mayor Lockwood: Well, that's — to me, that's what — you know, and legally and — and
staff wise, if we could take the motion — I'm just telling you what I
would support. If you could take the motion and add a limit to where
there wasn't the concerns and the number, we'd have to limit the
number of —
CM Longoria: So, this permit doesn't allow for concerts beyond, what was it, 50
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people?
CM Bentley: Activities.
CM Jamison: Birthday parties. This is birthday parties. Kids' birthday parties 25
Monday through Thursday and like 50 —
CM Longoria: So — so the —
CM Moore: Don't go down this path. Don't start negotiating on the fly, guys.
CM Jamison: I'm not negotiating.
CM Longoria: I'm not — that's already in the documentation.
CM Moore: What is?
CM Longoria: The number of people that can show up for these events.
Mayor Lockwood: And I'm looking at between the two because I know that's the big
picture. But I understand where you're —
CM Jamison: So, Mayor, are you talking about —
Mayor Lockwood: And I don't know that how we tie that into that other —
CM Jamison: Are you talking about the amount of people for the equestrian uses?
I don't know.
Mayor Lockwood: No, no. Because, again, there've been — I haven't had any
complaints about that. The complaints are — are on the concerts.
CM Jamison: I agree. And so, I think where this — at least I think where Joe's
motion is — is going is we are going to be discussing this again for a
long time.
Mayor Lockwood: The next one.
CM Jamison: Or not on the next one but when the alcohol licensing comes up.
CM Bentley: But we don't see the alcohol license.
CM Jamison: We can modify our alcohol code.
CM Bentley: When? When? When does that happen?
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Mayor Lockwood: But I don't know when.
CM Mohrig: It — isn't the — isn't the issue — one — one of the issues that we have
right now —
City Manager: If you in turn decide that you want to change the regulations for the
alcohol license, you can instruct staff to do so. But you do not see
them year over year.
CM Moore: But you don't want to construct an alcohol license based on one
particular applicant. That'snot a good use of —
CM Mohrig: Is — isn't the issue with alcohol license —
[Crosstalk]
CM Longoria: Carol — sorry. She's gone — was that what we were told was going
to be the use and what is the actual use are two different things.
Therefore, we granted an alcohol license under a false presentation,
false premise. So, the — I mean, Steven, what happens when we think
somebody has gone sideways with what is allowable for their
license?
Mr. Krokoff: You have the ability to, uh, commence a revocation process.
CM Longoria: Okay.
Mr. Krokoff: Um, and that involves all the due process that is afforded normally
in — in that. And it involves a hearing and all that kind of stuff. Um,
if you feel that you have — we have either incorrectly granted one or
they're noncompliant with laws of the state of Georgia or the city of
Milton, um, it's — it's — it's a whole section on it. But it is, uh — it's
fairly involved.
CM Moore: What we're trying to do is not kill a winery business. We're offering
up some conditions that will allow a winery business to co -exist with
an equestrian business. I'd like to see that happen tonight.
CM Longoria: I'd like to see it happen, too. I'm not trying to kill the winery
business.
CM Jamison: I'm okay with some of that if — if we can legally do it. And that's
what my main — that's my [inaudible] [04:10:31].
CM Bentley: So, is it legal?
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Mayor Lockwood: Ken, is anything that was proposed in Councilmember Bentley's —
illegal?
\1 r..larrard: A couple thoughts. 1.) The — the omnibus solution was a product of
the last council meeting when we agreed to sit down with
stakeholders in the community, uh, and individuals from the — the
farm winery. And that was the basis by which the omnibus solution
began to get discussed. The blending of the concepts now of adding,
basically, to the use permit conditions on an as of right use, um, is
challenging. Uh, is it illegal, Councilmember Moore? I would need
to sit down and look at what has been read tonight, which I have not
had an opportunity to do. Um, I understand the thought process
behind it. I understand why it's been proposed.
Um, but I will also say that I don't know that the applicant — I mean,
for instance, what if the applicant says, "Listen, that's a deal killer.
I cannot run it with those volumes. I'm done." They may want to
say I'm just going to pull the use permit all together because the
price of admission is too high.
CM Moore: And is that —
Mr. Jarrard: If that's the conditions upon which you're going to let me have a use
permit to have a day camp then, I — then, I don't want to do it. I
mean, I'm just suggesting to you in real time, I can see that argument
being made.
CM Moore: That would be a decision made by the applicant.
Mr. Jarrard: Correct.
CM Moore: Not something that the — the Council forced. That's a decision that
they would have to make because if — what we're — what we've
done, at this point, is presented some conditions that we believe
would be appropriate to the applicant but not be so restrictive that
they can't conduct their — they can have a thriving business. Based
on the things that we've heard either from the applicant directly in
the course of our meetings, in the course of our tour the other day, I
don't believe that there's anything that Councilmember Bentley has
proposed, at this point, that would be egregious to the applicant
where the applicant would say, "I can't under any condition go
forward with my business that way."
Mr. Jarrard: You may be right.
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CM Moore: I would also offer up that the — the proposal that Councilmember
Bentley has made is also considerate of those concerns that she had
heard from the community and from conversations with Council that
we believe might be appropriate for that. So, I — I think that there is
merit to the serious consideration that Councilmember Bentley and
others have put into this — getting to this point where she could — she
could present that this evening.
Mayor Lockwood: Peyton, did you have —
CM Jamison: I was going to say maybe we should — can we ask Ms. Jackson to
come up and ask questions towards her?
Mayor Lockwood: Well, and that's -- [inaudible] [04:12:59] to say in all due respect
to that and I — I — I, you know, trust what you're saying, Paul, that
you feel that it's — it's, you know, not too restrictive. But as — as
Councilmember Bentley read off two pages of — I can't remember
all this. I'm assuming the applicant wouldn't know if we said we
passed it, may not know. So, I — that's why I would promote to at
least ask the questions and that way, you know when you're making
your motion or whoever is making their motion, you know, is this a
deal killer or not.
And you can still make the motion, still vote on it. But at least you'd
know what the ramifications are. But right now, we've got a motion
and a second on there.
[Crosstalk]
Mayor Lockwood: Councilmember Mohrig, if you'd like to make a comment?
CM Mohrig: Yeah. Can you hear me now?
City Clerk: Yes.
CM Mohrig: Okay. I — I think, at least my — my perspective is the issue is not the
alcohol license itself. It's where consumption is taking place. And
the issue is not the farm winery but the music and the number of
people that are coming and sitting all over the lawn and being invited
to have a glass of wine on different parts of the property. So, I think
what Councilperson Bentley was trying to do was to say okay, let's
redefine. We'll still — we — we're not changing the alcohol license.
We're just defining where the wine tasting room is, which is what
we originally made an assumption. We didn't put it into that motion
when we — when we granted, uh, the farm winery and the alcohol
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license.
We just assumed based upon what we were presented and we said,
"Okay, we're good with that." We didn't put the details in there.
That's why we're at this point because what we had originally saw
— saw presented to us, we all said, "Oh, that looks good." But that's
not what's been happening. So, the — the challenge here is how do
we boil it down to where we're — we're allowing the stuff that we
all agree that has been working well with her equestrian business
and the birthday parties and then, we tweak where the consumption
of the — the wine has been occurring.
Instead of having it be a — a — essentially like a venue or — or the
wine tasting room lawn, we go back to what we originally thought
we had approved and now, we define it. I think that's what we're
trying to do, aren't we, and to eliminate the issue of the amplified
music and — and the big crowds? I thought that's what we've been
hearing for that last, what, like four months from the neighbors.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I'm going to go ahead and — and, uh, ask for a vote. The
Domino's guy is going to be here in just a minute, so. Um, do we
have a motion —
CM Mohrig: Oh, now I'm — now, I'm jealous. I've got nothing to eat here.
CM Cookerly: Rick, can you hear what the Mayor is saying?
CM Mohrig: I heard him say that the Domino's guy is going to be here. And I'm
saying that's not — that's not good for Rick.
Mayor Lockwood: All right. Paul?
CM Moore: Just one quick last point before the vote. One of the things that the
applicant has proposed to us on a site plan that I have dated May 26
is that the future winery and tasting room structure will be smack
dab in the middle of what she originally portrayed to us would be
her equestrian area that would not be used at all for the winery use.
Just food for thought.
CM Longoria: Are we approving that as part of this motion?
CM Moore: No. No. I'm just offering it as another point of consideration that —
CM Longoria: Oh.
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CM Bentley: Well — well, yes. The —
CM Moore: -- that there is a blended use suggested right here by this — by this
land — by this site plan.
CM Cookerly: Yeah. If you erode land use control tonight, you throw that in
jeopardy coming our way.
CM Moore: And right now on this, I think it's — it's an 8,000 square foot winery
and tasting room that is not subordinate to the principle use of the
property — uh, the primary — primary parcel.
CM Jamison: So, does that motion affect that though?
CM Moore: Because it comes into play for this is going to be used in the
equestrian area that we're about to grant other uses for.
CM Jamison: And — and — and, you know, this is just so new that we're —
CM Moore: Right.
CM Jamison: --that I just — I —I-1—
CM
I—I—
CM Cookerly: It's not new.
CM Bentley: No, the site plan —
CM Moore: The site plan —
CM Jamison: Uh, no, putting restrictions — yeah, not talking about the site plan but
I'm talking about everything else. Putting restrictions on by right
uses within a user permit is very new.
Mayor Lockwood: To me, it is.
CM Moore: But hear me out on this one.
CM Jamison: Yeah. I — I understand what you're saying. I understand what you're
saying.
CM Moore: It's the site plan that's — that's being considered and it's — it's the
setbacks, you know, where these things can take place all being
proposed to us for equestrian activities.
CM Jamison: Which has been going on for —
1
11
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CM Moore: But except for this 8,000 square foot proposed structure. It's for a
winery.
CM Jamison: But we're not approving the building. The building is not —
CM Bentley: The site plan is in the recommended conditions from staff right here,
okay, 5A.
CM Jamison: So — so, we — so, let's just get this straight here. The, uh, motion on
the table from Councilmember Longoria says we approve this site
plan with that 8,000 square foot building?
Mayor Lockwood: No, no, is that correct?
CM Jamison: Is that true?
Mayor Lockwood: Confirm that.
CM Jamison: If that's — because if that's the case then —
CM Bentley: Substantial compliance with the site plan received by the
Community Development Department, correct? I mean, you looked
at this as a whole. Isn't that right?
Mr. Krokof£ That would be the applicant. They — they would have to comply with
the — with the site plan, generally, as it's put out there. But then, with
each — with each aspect of that site plan, they would still have to get
it approved by Community Development. Now, as to the size of that,
uh — and even location, by the way, of that, uh — of that potential
tasting room, that's going to be up to the interpretation of the
community development director.
Mayor Lockwood: A simple question. If the motion was changed to totally exclude that
off the site plan, would that affect that at all?
CM Jamison: Because I think the whole motion on — I think the whole motion on
the table is to approve what has been going on for X number of years
where no one had a problem with it. But if that's part of it —
CM Moore: But it includes the site plan.
CM Jamison: That's what I'm just saying. If that's a part of it, different.
Mayor Lockwood: Right. Or could that be taken out?
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CM Jamison: Yeah. Yeah.
Mayor Lockwood: All right. I'm going to ask, Ellen, do you have a comment on that?
I'm going to ask — I'll ask the question. Nobody else has.
Ms. Smith: Please, God, take it out. Um, yes, please. Uh, the purpose of showing
that building was not to get it approved. The purpose of showing
that building was because the winery is a permitted by right use and
to have transparency about what any proposed structure might look
like on site in the next foreseeable future. There is no plan to build
that building for any foreseeable future. Take it off. We're fine with
that.
CM Moore: Here's where my dilemma begins. So, that's the first step of a
negotiation with the applicant this evening that I'm trying to avoid
negotiation on the fly.
CM Bentley: Agree.
CM Moore: So, do I get to ask the applicant the same thing about are you willing
to agree to no winery parking in this area that we're about to approve
for what has been used historically as equestrian area when there is
winery parking taking place in what we're about to approve without
any additional conditions? I have a problem with that.
CM Cookerly: I agree.
CM Moore: Now, we're — now, we're back to blending the issues.
Mayor Lockwood: I have the same problem. We have two pages of changes we're going
to put on there and then, vote on it and the applicant doesn't even
know what they are. But that's fine. All right. I'm going to call this
vote.
CM Moore: Yeah.
Mayor Lockwood: All — we have a motion and — from, uh, Councilmember Longoria
seconded by Councilmember Jamison on approval of this — this
application with staff's recommendations. Any discussion?
CM Jamison: Well, my only comment is the staff's recommendations that site plan
is not included. I mean, as far as that building is not included as far
as, uh, uh, the — the approval, correct?
Mayor Lockwood: No.
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CM Moore: It is.
Mayor Lockwood: No, it is with this motion, correct?
CM Moore: Oh, yeah. I'm not going to —
Mayor Lockwood: No, no, no. That's — this — that's the motion. Now, I mean, if
somebody wants to amend it and — but whatever. But that's — so,
you called the motion. You have the —
CM Jamison: You called the motion.
CM Longoria: Okay. Okay. I called the motion. Let's go.
Mayor Lockwood: All in — all in favor, please say aye. Any opposed? Aye.
CM Mohrig: Nay.
CM Longoria: Okay. So, I'm going to make a motion that we approve Agenda Item
No. 21-160 with the removal of the, um, site plan that, uh, staff had
included.
Mayor Lockwood: Um —
CM Jamison: I will make a motion to approve Agenda Item No. 21-160 with the
removal of the 8,000 square foot building as was staff — staff's
recommendations.
Mayor Lockwood: I mean, I —
CM Longoria: I'll — I'll second that.
Mayor Lockwood: All right. So, I have a motion for approval minus the 8,000 square
foot building that's shown on there from Councilmember Jamison
and a second from Councilmember Longoria. I'll open it up for
discussion. Rick, do you have any?
CM Mohrig: Yeah. The question I've got is does that — does that solve the issue
of where consumption is occurring. And —
CM Longoria: The building doesn't exist.
CM Mohrig: Okay. That building — that future building doesn't exist. We still
have the issue of wine is being consumed today with a lot of people
not limited to the number of people that could be there and it's all
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over the property. It's out on the lawn. It's on the patio. It's not in a
confined place. Is everybody saying you're comfortable with that?
You don't think that's an issue?
Mayor Lockwood: I have a question for Ken on that point or staff. But per what we
passed, in your interpretation, that might not be an issue. Is that
correct?
Mr. Jarrard: What I can tell you is is if there is a concern with respect to
compliance with the alcohol license that can be addressed
independent of these proceedings.
Mayor Lockwood: I mean, it may be happening now. But what I'm saying is if you look
at our ordinance, it probably — it shouldn't be happening. Is that what
we're saying? So — so, that doesn't have to be in that motion. It
would just have to be, uh — we'd have to enforce it.
CM Moore: Is there a motion on the floor right now?
CM Jamison: Yeah. There is but, um —
CM Moore: I — I just would offer up I got an indication from applicant's counsel
that she might be willing to consider some of the conditions that we
read earlier. It might make this all —
[Crosstalk]
CM Jamison: So, let's — let's vote on this motion, fail it and then —
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. I mean, we can or you guys can withdraw it if you want.
CM Longoria: I can withdraw my second.
CM Jamison: I'll — I'll — I'll just — I'll withdraw my motion.
Mayor Lockwood: All right. Do we need to do anything for withdrawal or they just
need to say it?
Mr. Jarrard: The floor is — the floor is open, Mr. Mayor.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. So, what I will ask is that, um, the applicant or the applicant's
attorney, and I think, Paul, your suggestion to ask — allow her to —
CM Moore: Offer her thoughts on the — on the conditions that were presented.
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Mayor Lockwood: And I would ask, so we all know —
CM Moore: It's not necessarily a negotiation.
Mayor Lockwood: -- if you could read them out individually so — I mean, again, I don't
remember them.
CM Moore: Let's hear maybe a broad brush stroke first and see where we need
to go.
Ms. Smith: I — I think I took pretty copious notes, although I may have missed
something. My only, um — and — and thank you. My only question
— and I understand the concern about parking and access with the
blending of use. You have another permitted use, right, which is the
equestrian, um, facility that's operating with or without these
variances. So, the parking that is there within the 100 foot activity
center, um, serves — because it is closest to those barns, right. So,
just from a clarification, um, you would prefer for winery parking to
happen elsewhere on the other side of — of the residence or
somewhere else.
Mayor Lockwood: Yes.
Ms. Smith: But there was an exception maybe for handicapped.
CM Bentley: There — aren't there —
Ms. Smith: Could you just verify your —
CM Bentley: Aren't there a couple of handicap parking spaces that are —
Ms. Smith: There are.
CM Bentley: -- uh, located in the front, which is easy for them to get to and those
are in the activity setback, correct?
Ms. Smith: Um, actually, I don't think they are. I have to go back to look.
CM Bentley: Okay.
Ms. Smith: My — my question was your exception was handicapped could be
used for winery parking.
Mayor Lockwood: Yes.
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Ms. Smith: Um, the question —
CM Moore: The presentation of the handicapped spots as I see them on the site
plan and as they were pointed out to me on the day when I was on
the tour —
Ms. Smith: Correct.
CM Moore: -- was they were pretty much next to the winery already.
Ms. Smith:
They are.
CM Moore:
And so, those are okay because they're within the area that's been
permitted by the alcohol license.
Ms. Smith:
Okay.
CM Moore:
So, they're, in my mind, those are okay.
Ms. Smith:
I just wanted to clarify because I — I didn't know if I heard the full
part. Um, but also you do not want access to go down the hill in
between the barn and the — the closest adjacent property for winery
CM Moore:
For winery use parking.
Ms. Smith:
-- to be able to go out and exit on Hopewell. Is that —
CM Moore: All the winery use parking would be up on the winery area to the
west of the structure.
Ms. Smith: Okay. Um —
CM Moore: You — you portrayed the other day that there was ample parking for
what you expected a normal winery tasting room, uh —
Ms. Smith: That's correct.
CM Moore: -- occupancy would be.
Ms. Smith: That's correct.
CM Moore: That's what allowed me to think about that as acceptable parking. I
wouldn't have to be concerned about the safety issues with the
blending of the two businesses because it was portrayed to me that
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the winery parking with the numbers you were talking about could
all be contained primarily to the west and the additional handicapped
spots that are in the — would be in the north side that that would be
sufficient. And I can support that.
Ms. Smith: Um —
Mayor Lockwood: If — if you dare, would you mind coming to the —
Ms. Smith: It's okay. Uh, the only other question that I had and I — I wrote it
down, um, 50 people maximum for the tasting room —
CM Moore: At any given time.
Ms. Smith: -- at any given time. Uh, 45 decibels at the property lines and no live
music. Was that one of —
CM Moore: No. Live music must be contained either within the tasting room or
immediately adjacent to the tasting room.
Ms. Smith: Okay. I — I miswrote then.
CM Moore: Wine — basic music of any kind, live or otherwise.
Ms. Smith: Okay. I thought there was a specific prohibition against live music.
So, I was just trying to make sure I understood the limitations.
CM Moore: No. You can still have live music.
CM Mohrig: I think the — I think the prohibition had to do with —
CM Bentley: Okay. So, we — we — we did, um — that was associated with the
agricultural activities.
Ms. Smith: Yes.
CM Bentley: So, you know, trying to accommodate the background music —
Ms. Smith: Yes.
CM Bentley: -- if you have a guitar player that is — that's — that — I consider that
live. So, um, I guess, the prohibited activities related, and that's not
clear so I'm sorry about that that that would be —
CM Moore: One minute. Just — go back to the May meeting of 2019. One of the
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things that was said by Pam was that the activities would be on the
equestrian side of the —
Ms. Smith: Correct.
CM Moore: And then, it — for whatever circumstances, it morphed where some
of those activities were in the lawn and where the band stage is and
further beyond the tasting room and the immediate adjacent area to
the tasting room. So, I think the prohibition of live music for the
equestrian activities is intended to be no five music over there. But
live music where the tasting room is and immediately adjacent is
okay.
Ms. Smith: I just wanted to make sure I heard because I didn't catch that, um —
CM Moore: Good — good clarification.
Ms. Smith: Okay. Thank you.
CM Moore: So, Ellen, is that — that was the extent of your concern about the
conditions at this point. Basically, everything else that you heard —
and we could have Councilmember Bentley repeat them.
CM Bentley: Here. Um, I would give you this. And — and — in the spirit of trying
to accommodate the things that we heard when we were there, um —
no, you can — is that the one I gave you? Hang on.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. So, where are we?
CM Bentley: I just gave, uh, the applicant the list.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Okay. Just give them a minute to look at that.
CM Bentley: Do you want to keep it?
Ms. Smith: Um, no. Unfortunately, I think the — the parking and access, uh, Is
not acceptable, um, for the applicant. So, we appreciate it very
much.
Mayor Lockwood: All right. So, I think we're kind of back to where we were with or
without a motion. Um, or we can entertain another motion.
CM Cookerly: Well, without managing the parking then, we're not separating the
use. So, um, I would just ask having toured the property and seeing
the area over by the garage and the other building and on that side,
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are you sure you couldn't park over there for the winery?
Ms. Smith: Yes. Unfortunately, I think that's just, basically, reserved for at least
the part closest to the house, reserved for employees and residents.
Uh, with respect, I appreciate the concern that you raised. Um, there
hasn't been an issue with respect to safety. And if we have taken the
items — and we are more than happy to limit the number of people
and hours of operation of the tasting room and otherwise. And if we
have taken the number of people down substantially and withdrawn
the application, you know, for the concerts and agreed to prohibit
any number of other uses then, the safety factors are also mitigated
because you — you do not have — you all were there.
You do not have people partying it up. They're not drinking bottles
of wine while the equestrian uses are happening or while the summer
camps or others are using the equestrian activities.
CM Cookerly: With all due respect though, we were there at 2:00 something in the
afternoon —
Ms. Smith: Yes.
CM Cookerly: -- and my friend was there in the evening. There were 100 people.
So, those people though were parked —
Ms. Smith: And there were not equestrian events or children.
Mayor Lockwood: That would be my question. Is there — do you separate the times of
the events.
Ms. Smith: With children's activities happening during that same time.
Mayor Lockwood: I wouldn't think if there's a children birthday party at 2:00, you
wouldn't be having a big wine tasting at the same time.
CM Bentley: Their hours do overlap of the tasting — the consumption on premises
and the agricultural activities because those ag activities go from
9:00 to 5:00 and that's during your — you know, that's —that's during
the — the tasting room hours on, uh — they overlap on Thursday
through Sunday.
Ms. Smith: They do. And the tasting room hours end at 8:00-ish, I think. I
apologize. I don't have it in front of me.
CM Bentley: Yeah. No, that's right, yeah.
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Ms. Smith: Um, but we're also happy, again, if you limit the number of people.
And I think your conditions proposed 50 as opposed to 100. And if
you want to further condition that there won't be a child's birthday
party happening when more than 25 people are on site for the tasting
room or 15 people. I think that that mitigates the risk that you're
concerned with.
CM Moore: What is it about the parking — if you were to take — are you
suggesting that the area to the west is reserved for employee parking.
Couldn't you move the employee parking to the other area and make
that available to the — to the wine, uh, guests?
Ms. Smith: We could. I think that it comes down to a question of enforceability
as much as anything. So, if a city code enforcement officer is called
and if I'm a mother and I am, which I am, and I am having a birthday
party for my child and I have dropped my child off, arrived, be part
of the birthday party and I want to go get a glass of wine, where am
I supposed to park?
CM Moore: That's where we — we were going to go at one point about trying to
— we didn't go down the path of suggesting that you could not have,
um, two events occurring at the same time.
Ms. Smith: Right.
CM Moore: We didn't — we didn't want to limit that.
Ms. Smith: I think it's just — I think it's operationally a challenge and one that
has not presented — that the — the parking concerns and the traffic
concerns related to high intense use — combined use of the property.
We've agreed to limit and — and the omnibus solution — and — and I
will apologize. I'm distressed that you didn't see the letter from July
8 as a good faith willingness attempt to respond, um, because it —
CM Moore: That was not — that was the measure of the community, the — the
stakeholders.
Ms. Smith: So, it was an attempt to say that there are permitted by right uses,
farm winery use that has no limits on it right now from the city's
perspective. I'm not talking about the liquor license. I'm talking
about the farm winery use. It does not have a limit on the number of
people. The ag related activities has no parking requirements at all
under your code. So, we've provided more than enough parking but
we also have said we will submit to you that we will limit those
permitted by right uses and proposed conditions. And they may not
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have gone far enough. Um, but they were significantly, you know,
proposed after looking at the totality of uses on the property.
Mayor Lockwood: Let me ask a question, Paul, too, just on the parking because, again,
I see it not only as operational logistically would be tough but also
from enforcement to separate the two. To me, the magic of that is
the limited number of people. That is the safety issue and whatnot.
CM Jamison: Well, I'll say I'm pleasantly surprised from what I'm hearing.
CM Moore: I am, too. And I need to think about it for a minute but I want to —
I'm going to say some things out loud but I'm thinking that are still
a concern for me. One of the things that was important to me was a
clear separation of those two activities. Now, you suggested that
there isn't anything — that it hasn't been an issue.
Ms. Smith: On parking.
CM Moore: There hasn't been an issue on parking where there's been an incident
because of consumption and equestrian use.
Ms. Smith: And I don't disagree. I — I — I have not had the benefit of looking at
the May 19, 2019 or the May 26, 2019, or the limits on the alcohol
license. But from a location standpoint, we don't have any objection,
certainly, to limiting that use. I think the parking part of it is the
challenge.
CM Moore: So, you really — all right. So, the — the thing that's really, really
important to you is having the parking in the setback that's current
Ms. Smith: Is leaving the parking where it is.
CM Bentley: So, that's by the barn?
CM Moore: But that's — that's why I was concerned the other day about where,
you know, if somebody walks down from the winery to their — to
their big vehicle and you have this very nice young man walking the
horse, they were interacting. There was a chance for an incident
there that I can't overlook.
Ms. Smith: I — I think, with respect and Councilmember Longoria said it maybe
best, there is only so many things you can control on a piece of
property. And, uh, there is insurance. There are all those things. We
have very high concerns for safety, not only of our employees and
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staff but of patrons who attend. Um, I — I understand the concern. I
think that there is a different way to handle it than by having parking
separated in a manner that is going to be almost impossible for
anyone coming onsite to know or for the city to enforce.
CM Moore: Well, one of the things that crossed my mind in looking at the
parking solution would be that any equestrian related activity
attendee would enter off of Hopewell off of the roundabout. Any
wine related attendee or guest would enter off of Bethany Way. And
then, there is a clear separation. Employees can park wherever you
deem appropriate because they're not consuming alcohol. I
wouldn't be concerned about their wherewithal on the property —
Ms. Smith: Right.
CM Moore: -- because they're not consuming alcohol.
Ms. Smith: Right.
CM Moore: So, they could park on space available to the west of the homestead
or they could park in what is already graveled areas with sufficient
parking in the equestrian area, too, especially if you look at the fact
that the 8,000 square foot proposed building is not going to take
place. That's already graveled up there and there's ample parking
up there.
Ms. Smith: I — I understand the concern. I just think it's from an enforceability
and a — frankly, a traffic flow standpoint, I think you're creating a
potential for conflict more by having different — I could be wrong
about that.
CM Moore: You put a couple of cones up, you've already demonstrated you're
really good at putting fences up because there's a lot of them. So,
you separate the two uses. Now —
Ms. Smith: And the uses are separated by fence. The parking is not.
Mayor Lockwood: Let me ask a suggestion because there's a difference between
absolute and recommended.
CM Moore: Yeah.
Mayor Lockwood: And, again, even if — even if we legislate this, who is going to
enforce it? You know, somebody parked here or didn't. But there
could be recommendations where could we make a recommendation
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that you have signage saying, you know, wine tasting park on this
side, you know, other events — whatever. And 90% of the people
will follow it. Now, you know, if a mom pulls over here and let's
her kid off for this and then, walks over there, you can't. But would
that help that situation safety wise?
CM Moore: Yeah. I can — I could probably sign up for that. Um, I still — I still
am uncomfortable with what I personally witnessed. It wasn't an
incident but it was an opportunity for one. I know it was not intended
for it to present that. It was —
Ms. Smith: There's an opportunity any time we get in a car, Councilman.
CM Moore: Exactly. But I also appreciate your consideration of the limitation
by the head count. And that's a — that's a big deal. And I — I
recognize that we're asking you for a big deal on that versus what
has been there historically.
Ms. Smith: Yes.
CM Moore: Those are the things that were creating the intensity of use for the
neighbors that were so problematic. So, if some — some of that goes
away by head count limitations to not exceed 50 at any given time
on the winery side and I think it was 25 for any given party —
Ms. Smith: I think during the week, um, for agricultural related activities and 50
on the weekends.
CM Moore: Fifty on the weekends. Yeah. Maybe we're getting —
CM Cookerly: So, is that the — is that the cap? I mean, there's no other kinds of
parties or festivals or anything else that —
CM Bentley: We haven't gotten to the next permit. So — so —
CM Moore: So, there's no — there's no events in what Councilmember Bentley
has proposed.
CM Cookerly: But let me just say this about the equestrian program. I mean, it —
these horses are very acclimated to their job. And, um, they're —
they're around cars. They're around vehicles. It's really the driver's
side where they're not acclimated to the horses and that issue. So,
the — the risk is yours. And — and it's a big risk, you know, having
people come on the property that are — and if you're willing to
entertain that risk, I'm not sure that we can protect you from every
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risk. What we do need to do though is protect the people who are
sincerely concerned about property values, etc., reining in that
number, reducing traffic, reducing noise, etc., so that it is a benign
presence — presence in the neighborhood.
I think, you know, when we get feedback from people who are
vested in — in that number and what that number should be just like
we're getting feedback here, can we ask them does that work. I
mean, we're negotiating on behalf of people. I feel like we should
be able to ask them.
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah. Yeah. I don't — I think you'll have to make that —
CM Jamison: Again, this is the part I hate.
Mayor Lockwood: -- I think you'll have to make that judgment based on conversations,
input, meetings, and whatnot, you know.
CM Jamison: I'm not comfortable doing —
CM Cookerly: Okay. Well, I think the motion — okay, well then, your motion, I
think, takes that into consideration — I mean, your — your — what you
did. So, I'm going to assume that that —
CM Bentley: I have another question. So, just on this parking, so you are, um —
you accept not parking in the activity setback but not separating the
parking for the — the different uses, correct?
Ms. Smith: I'm sorry. Say the first part again.
CM Bentley: The — the not parking in the —
Ms. Smith: Not parking within the —
CM Bentley: -- yeah. Yeah. In the activity setback.
Ms. Smith: Uh, no, I don't accept that. I'm sorry. I misunderstood that. No.
Existing parking that is located with the 100 foot activity setback,
we would respectfully request the continuance of that use.
CM Bentley: Okay. So, can you — where is it that you need that?
Ms. Smith: It's — it's where it's currently built. So, the, um — it is — I think there
are eight or ten spaces on Bethany Way. So, it's — it's right where
that arrow is pointing here.
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CM Moore: I said I wasn't going to do this. I said I wasn't going to negotiate on
the fly but I — I could subscribe —
[Crosstalk]
Mayor Lockwood: With all these —
CM Moore: I could subscribe —
Ms. Smith: And I don't — and I don't mean to open that. I — I didn't understand
that you wanted parking — I — I think there's —
CM Bentley: Well, I'm trying to get a —just to understand how many of the spaces
that you —
Ms. Smith: All of the existing spaces.
CM Moore: Does that include parking in the riding arenas?
Ms. Smith: That — those are available if we need it. But if we're reducing the
numbers, we shouldn't need it.
CM Bentley: You shouldn't need it. So — so, tell me the spaces —
[Crosstalk]
CM Moore: You're okay then saying you wouldn't park in the intended use as a
riding arena?
Ms. Smith: Why would you have an objection to it if it's —
CM Moore: And why would you?
Ms. Smith: I don't unless there's a special event and we've applied for a special
event permit and the city agrees to that.
CM Moore: Well, then you would — you would in that same event request — ask
for those kinds of conditions —
Ms. Smith: I would — I would have to count the number of parking spaces. But
I think we would be more than fine, uh, even at the city's number
with the parking spaces that are there.
CM Moore: One of the things I'd like to get to is parking where it can't be seen
from the road by anybody going by.
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Ms. Smith: Yes.
CM Moore: So, whether you've got two people or fifty people on the property at
any given time, nobody is aware that there's anything going on. So,
that's where the Bethany Way parking is problematic for me.
Ms. Smith: There's a huge berm.
CM Moore: Yeah. But it's still visible.
Ms. Smith: I — I have photos, if you guys would like to see them but it's —
CM Moore: I — but — but is it —
Mayor Lockwood: Is it the view of the cars or the number of cars? Like if it's limited
to 50 people, wouldn't that —
CM Moore: So, I can — you know, the other parking that's down here, Joe, I can
live that that. This is the problem.
CM Cookerly: But you know what, um, Paul? Fifty people, we could be talking
about twenty-five cars or twenty cars or eighteen cars or — or maybe
max thirty cars. And I — I don't — I — I just — candidly, I don't think
those particular spaces are — we've gotten to a good number in terms
of total attendees. They're going to assume all the risk on the — the
issue about which you're worried.
CM Moore: The other part, Carol, is the — right now, they're also — it's not
depicted on any of the site, um, maps. The parking that's taking
place over off of the Hopewell entrance. Now, there would be a new
drive over there but there are cones —
Ms. Smith: There is an existing driveway there.
CM Moore: Right. And you're parking off of that driveway.
Ms. Smith: Yes, which is —
CM Moore: And that parking is — is not depicted on any of the site maps.
Ms. Smith: Um —
CM Moore: It's off of Hopewell.
Ms. Smith: I know you're saying it's off of Hopewell. I think it is depicted on
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the maps.
CM Moore: No, it's not.
Ms. Smith: Okay. Where?
CM Moore: So, there — there is green — there is grass on both sides of the
driveway.
Ms. Smith: Yes.
CM Moore: On the Hopewell entrance that's gated today.
Ms. Smith: Is there — is there farm hand parking?
CM Moore: It's next to your — it's next to the, um —
CM Bentley: Round bales.
CM Moore: -- the — the, uh, historic barn. Up near the historic barn on weekends,
you're parking cars on the grass on both sides of that driveway.
That's not depicted anywhere in the parking.
Ms. Smith: And — and the reason for that, if it's not depicted then, that was
provided when there were more people. If we limited the numbers,
parking will be as shown on the site plan.
CM Moore: So, yeah. So, I'm suggesting though is that that would not be an area
that I could accept for parking because that is so visible up there.
Ms. Smith: Understood.
CM Moore: You've got ample parking in other areas both in the graveled area
that's probably not being used to its capacity, an area that's — where
the proposed new or future use would be.
Ms. Smith: Yes, sir.
CM Moore: Plus, if we were willing to cooperate on some of these other parking
areas, you should never have to park up in the Hopewell area that is
so visible.
Ms. Smith: Okay. I — I don't object to that. I — I will note this and Robyn can
correct me, the 100 foot activity, um, setback, I think, has not been
always in existence. I think that it was — that this parking was
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established and this access well before — even in Fulton County well
before there was 100 foot activity setback. I just —
CM Moore: The activity setback comes with our willingness to cooperate with
the agricultural activity permit.
Ms. Smith: Yes. I — I just want to —
CM Moore: That's where the 100 foot interrupts —
Ms. Smith: But it also comes in after the adoption of that even in Fulton County
is my point. There wasn't a prohibition against parking within 100
feet. Even if —
CM Moore: That's — that's — that's not — that's the grandfathered —
Ms. Smith: It's not — neither here nor there.
CM Moore: That's the grandfathered debate that I don't think we want to go
there now.
Ms. Smith: I respect that.
Mayor Lockwood: Is there anything else?
CM Moore: So, are we okay on the no parking up near Hopewell?
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. All right. I'm going to —just that, uh — we'll keep some more
here but we understand — we understand.
Ms. Smith: Yes, we agree.
CM Cookerly: Yeah. They agree. They agree that no parking on Hopewell.
Ms. Smith: Visible from Hopewell.
CM Cookerly: No visible parking.
[Inaudible audience members]
Mayor Lockwood: Add I'm going to ask, um, Ms. Jackson, if you wouldn't mind
step
ping to the dais and — and Ellen, you're welcome to stay there
wit4 her, you know, and answer any questions or objections, sorry.
Be on the microphone.
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CM Moore: I would just offer up, Ms. Jackson, for your consideration, there is
an area up there that's really visible.
Ms. Jackson: Yeah, for —
CM Moore: You probably can't park more than 15, 20 cars up there on your
busiest of the weekends. And that's the part that people see that are
finding — they find it offensive. It's not suggesting that you can't —
you've got — if we are going to cooperate with what's being
suggested here, you're showing — I think I don't remember the count
but, uh, it was something like 40 parking area — 40 parking spots in
the area where the future wine structure was going to be.
Ms. Jackson: Mm-hmm, right.
CM Moore: There's 20 spaces, um, over on the I'll call it the Bethany Way side
down in — near the, uh, riding ring. Another eight right up tight on
Bethany Way. So, that's let's call it 40 plus another 20, that's 60 and
another 8, that's 68 parking spots. That's — that should be ample
parking without adding another 20 or 30 over near Hopewell. I just
ask that you — we're — we're doing our best to try to work with you.
Ms. Jackson: No. I'm — I'm good with — I'm good with — I mean, I don't have a
problem. I'm just a bit overwhelmed with everything.
CM Moore: I know you are. But this is a big deal. And you — and this is — and
tonight, you have to kind of come prepared for a big deal and we're
trying to work with you.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay.
CM Moore: You're asking for a lot.
Mayor Lockwood: So, are we — all right. Are we at a point where somebody wants to
make a motion?
CM Moore: Sure.
CM Cookerly: Well, whoa, whoa, whoa, can we — let's just —
Ms. Jackson: You're — you're making it such that I cannot operate my business
with everything — I mean, okay. I understand. I don't know what to
say. I'm totally overwhelmed and — and just blown away. I — I — I'm
a little lost because we have given up so much of what we were
originally requesting. And I — I just — I'm not going to be able to
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operate. That's just the bottom line. And it's so —
CM Bentley: So, what — what is it? Is it the parking? Or is it the numbers?
Ms. Jackson: Well, I mean, it just all comes so — this is all very confusing still. I
don't, uh, think — don't think all of you even really understand it.
CM Moore: I do.
Ms. Jackson: I — and it's — I'm not sure I understand what you've suggested. I
mean, it's —
CM Cookerly: Can we just then take a breath? I think, Ellen, if I may call you that
because I don't know your last name. I'm so sorry. Um, what she
just agreed to was a 50% cap at any one time. And then, we've gone
back and forth for 10 to 15 minutes on parking and what's applicable
or what's — what would work. And I think we're willing to make a
concession on the parking that originally was a problem. So, I'm
sorry.
CM Moore: That's fine.
CM Cookerly: It was a problem for Councilmember Moore over by the stables
closest to the stables and the riding area. We're — we're willing to
push that aside because we've reduced it down to 50, which I
understand — 50 for the winery, was it 25 on the other side?
CM Moore: Twenty-five on the weekdays, fifty on the weekends.
CM Cookerly: Okay. So, the balance there are 50 and 50 and on the weekends. Is
that — we're understood that that was okay with you. Does that work
for you?
Ms. Jackson: So, are we talking about 50 people on — I don't know. Uh —
Ms. Smith: No, it sounds like.
CM Bentley: Okay. Okay. That's good to know. So — so, we understand now the
cap isn't working for you. That's — that's a big deal.
Ms. Jackson: Well, I'm not saying that the caps not working. I don't know. Are
we talking about just for birthday parties? Are we talking for the
winery? Are we talking —
CM Bentley: No. So, the winery was —
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Ms. Smith: For the winery, tasting room —
Ms. Jackson: At any one time?
Ms. Smith: At any one time.
Ms. Jackson: Then, I — I mean, that's going to put me out of business. I mean, I
can't do that, so.
CM Moore: You, actually, said that would work for you the other day.
Ms. Jackson: Well, I thought we were talking about 50 for the, um — for the farm
side, equestrian side.
CM Moore: That was what you already agreed to with the Planning Commission.
Ms. Jackson: But that doesn't have to do with the — I'm not trying to be deceptive.
I am honestly very, very confused on what you all are asking. I'm —
I'm — I'm — and I'm trying to just say I've got to be able to run a
business but I'm not understanding the parameters you all are trying
to put on it. And I need time to understand that. I need it to be able
to see it before I agree to it because I'm confused.
CM Moore: We're offering back to you is what you agreed to for the equestrian
side with the Planning Commission. And we're offering back to you
this evening what you told us on Thursday you could live with on
the winery side. The 50 is a moving number meaning that it's 50 at
any given time. You may have 150 people come through the winery
in any given day. But the maximum can be 50 at any given time.
That's what you told us you could work with the other day.
Ms. Jackson: Did we talk about that the other day? And I don't remember. Um, I
— I — well, and I — I — I — I respect that but, I mean, it's just at any
one given time. Well, how do I control — okay. So — so, if we're
talking 50 on that side, 25 on the farm side and then, on weekends
on 50, we're talking collectively 100 people. Am I understanding
that correctly?
CM Moore: No.
Ms. Jackson: Okay. I'm confused. I don't what you're —
Ms. Smith: Fifty — fifty children, 14 or under, I think, was your age limitation
for events.
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CM Moore: Yes. Yes.
CM Bentley: Just for — yeah, for —
CM Moore: For a birthday parties. It's not really an event. It's a birthday party.
And I'm using that word — I'm avoiding the word event.
Ms. Smith: I get it. Um, 50 people, 50 children under 14 for birthday parties on
Saturday and Sundays. Looking to make sure I say it right.
CM Moore: Mm-hmm.
Ms. Smith: Twenty-five —
Ms. Jackson: Okay. Well, where do the parents come in because they're over 14.
So, how do we — how do we account for that? I mean, it's — it's —
it's very, very confusing. And I feel — I feel like I'm just being set
up to get into trouble because I — I can't even understand this. And
how is it controlled? And how is it enforced? And —
CM Jamison: I — uh, I — I will — I will say, uh, for — for the benefit of the applicant
to throw a couple of pages of uses on here, uh, this could last a very
long — and — and, usually, decisions like this aren't made correctly
when we're —
Mayor Lockwood: And especially as late as it is.
CM Jamison: Because there's a lot —
CM Moore: In defense of what was offered up this evening, there is nothing
inconsistent with what has been discussed at some point to —
CM Jamison: I'm just curious if Ms. Jackson is — is thinking that these limitations
are associated with the equestrian uses. Because these limitations
are associated with the winery. I don't know. Does Mr. —
Ms. Smith: These don't — these don't —
CM Bentley: They're both.
CM Jamison: They're both?
CM Cookerly: Peyton, they're both. They're both.
CM Moore: That's what she agreed to with the Planning Commission and things
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that we heard —
[Crosstalk]
CM Jamison: I just want to make sure they understand.
CM Moore: Yeah. We're feeding back things that were already agreed to in the
Planning Commission and that we heard on our tour the other day,
uh, stated by the applicant.
Ms. Smith: To —just because the councilmember mentioned something, I don't
think we ever discussed a limit on equestrian uses. So, and I —
CM Moore: We're not restricting your equestrian uses.
Ms. Smith: Oh, I thought I just heard you say we were.
Mayor Lockwood: Numbers probably.
CM Moore:
Mayor Lockwood:
Ms. Jackson:
Ms. Smith:
[Crosstalk]
Numbers.
Numbers, yeah.
I mean, that was discussed —
To me, that's — that's —
Ms. Smith: That's what I would like to clarify is it 50 understanding with respect
to the agricultural related uses. And I don't mean to belabor this or
take up everyone's time. I'm happy to do it outside of this. Um, is it
50 — your — your proposed condition is 50 people total, farm winery
and equestrian permitted by right uses aside from the 50 on the
weekend for agricultural related activities?
CM Bentley: It was 50 for the winery at one time. It's 50 for the birthday parties,
agricultural activities. Okay. You also have a thriving lesson
program.
Ms. Smith: Right.
CM Bentley: That's — that's not even addressed in those numbers.
Ms. Smith: That's what my question was.
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CM Bentley: Okay. Yeah, no. That's a good question.
CM Moore: That all stays. That's — that's all acceptable.
Ms. Smith: Because when you just said use and you said you're not talking
about equestrian use but we are talking about numbers, that's what
I want to clarify.
CM Moore: Oh, I'm sorry.
Ms. Smith: Because that was not clear just now.
CM Bentley: Right. Your lesson [inaudible] [05:00:46].
Mayor Lockwood: So, are you saying that there's a total of 100 people, 50 and 50
allowed at a time plus the lessons or not?
CM Moore: No. So, the lessons go on — the lessons go on with no change
whatsoever because that's an acceptable use under — you know, by
right and the community is taking no exception to that. No change
in activity. The only suggestion that we've got in terms of a cap with
regard — with regard to the equestrian part of the business is with the
birthday parties. And that was a — a maximum of 50. And you had
agreed to that at the Planning Commission.
Ms. Jackson: The birthday parties, I'm good with that. With the birthday parties,
that's — that's fine.
CM Moore: So, that's not new to you. That's fine, great. We just hit a milestone.
We're good. We can — we can park that. Now, let's talk about the
winery part. When we toured the other day, you suggested that 50 at
any given time was an acceptable number knowing that you could,
in total in a given day, heaven forbid it's 500, a turnover of 500
people. But you can just not have more than 50 winery guests at any
given time. But over the course of the day, in the course of your
open hours, you could have hundreds of people but just not more
than 50 at any given time because that's where the intensity of use
comes in.
That's where it — it gets all parked up. That's where all of a sudden
you've got a great, big event.
Ms. Jackson: Yeah. I am being — I don't think that would — I — I don't recall saying
that to you. I — I don't know if either of you recall that being said.
So, that I do not recall. I apologize. If I did — 50 is going to be
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difficult. And — and how does it come into play? Because like I
already said —
Ms. Smith: With parking.
Ms. Jackson: Well, no. David and I have 10 children between us and with spouses
and grandchildren, we have 30 there just ourselves for Easter. I
mean, it's — it's like well, where does that come into play? Am I now
down to 20 people at the winery because we've got 30 family there
that's —
Mayor Lockwood: I wouldn't think family, no.
CM Moore: No. I mean, family doesn't come —
Ms. Jackson: I'm — so I'm — I don't know what you're defining.
CM Cookerly: Paul, Paul, are you going to do something then about parking
[inaudible] [05:02:55].
CM Moore: No. Because I think — because it's intensity of use because then, you
— if you've got more than 50 people, all of a sudden, you're — you're
— you're filling up areas that will take you beyond the confines of
the tasting room and the immediately adjacent area, which is the area
for consumption.
CM Cookerly: Would family and, uh —
Ms. Jackson: Well, yeah. I mean, my problem is that this is all so confusing. I
don't know what you're defining as what.
CM Moore: This will help out, I think. Part of the — and one of the things that is
an issue is the fact that the tasting room that you have — currently
using and that you've proposed, which we — we — we know there's
a condition that still has to come into play, which is it cannot — it has
to be subordinate to the primary residence. So, it has to be less than
3,000 square feet-ish, whatever the number is. If your footprint is
3,250, it has to be less than 3,250. So, at — uh, call it 3,000 square
feet for the sake of the example.
If you start talking about more than 50 people, your 30 — your 3,000
square feet with wine tasting, your, um — and you're immediately
adjacent area, all of a sudden, you — you're — you're blowing out the
seams on your area to be able to use — to — to make it reasonable
where it's not too — too intense a use again.
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Ms. Smith: I — I think the tasting room that we proposed was something like 460
square feet.
CM Moore: I know. There was 600 total if you took — the building was 600, 300
of which was going to be with the open air, uh, that shared facility
with the barn. That was — it was, uh —
Ms. Smith: My one point was — no one has asked for 3,000 square feet.
CM Moore: I know you haven't.I'm just saying that — that you — but you did
ask, at one point, for, um, 8,500 or 12,000.
Ms. Smith: For a full —
CM Moore: Those were numbers that were being tossed around in the fold —
Ms. Smith: Which was not for a tasting room.
CM Moore: I know it. It was full production.
CM Cookerly: And the — the building is looming out there. So, there's —
CM Moore: But the part, yeah, that hasn't been addressed is the fact that it has
to be a subordinate structure to the primary residence.
Ms. Smith: Forgive me, I — I would have to look at the code to see where that
comes in because I'm not quite ready to —
CM Moore: It's an — it's an accessory building.
Ms. Smith: -- give that.
CM Moore: Yeah, no. I — I understand that.
Ms. Smith: As a — as a concession.
CM Moore: Right. But what's — but here's — here's the disconnect that you and
I are having right now and that is you're telling me that right now,
your winery is operating with about something less than 1,000
square feet in your tasting room. And you're proposing another
temporary tasting room that's only going to be about 600. Now —
Ms. Jackson: We do everything outside. And that's why — so, we are outside.
We're an outside —
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Ms. Smith: Which is, I think, the councilmembers' concern. It's a license.
CM Moore: Yeah, yeah.
Ms. Smith: In fairness, which I've heard for the first time I don't know how
many hours ago but this evening. So, forgive me for not having a
full robust response on that.
CM Cookerly: And isn't that a Georgia requirement of tasting [inaudible]
[05:05:50].
Ms. Smith: I don't know that it's a requirement. I think it's an opportunity.
CM Bentley: So, it's your understanding that you — you have the right to, I mean,
say that —
Ms. Smith: Not a liquor license.
CM Bentley: Okay.
CM Moore: Here — here's a thought. We don't have that many choices tonight.
We can approve something — we can approve something with
conditions or we can deny something here. We're not going to — you
already — already heard we're not going to approve something
straight up. We're offering up approval for something with
conditions. It might be worth trying our proposed conditions rather
than having us deny something. And then,,you don't — then, we're
at a horrible place because you don't have a business and we're
trying not to shut you down. That's the last thing we want to do is —
is take away a business that we believe in can work.
Both businesses can work.
Ms. Smith: I respect and appreciate that.
CM Moore: So, help us help you is what I'm asking you to do. And it may very
well be that there is a — at the end of the day, there's something that
you discover is a hardship. And we'll be happy to hear that hardship
and maybe find a way to do business together with an expansion of
that. But you at least gave it a shot with some things that we worked
pretty hard on to get you to be helpful.
Ms. Smith: I respect and appreciate that. I — I think this would be a very different
conversation if this were an applicant who was coming before you
who didn't have a proven track record with respect — with respect to
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these uses. And I — I respect the concerns with respect to the farm
winery. I — I do. I — I think this is a — this isn't a new applicant or a
new piece of property, um, which may also be part of the concern.
So, uh, I — I hear you. Let me — forgive me if I take —
CM Moore: Maybe take a sidebar.
Mayor Lockwood: No. And I — I want to say Ken — and get your — I'm — I'm getting a
little uncomfortable. It's one thing if it was one or two things and —
but, you know, kind of negotiating on the fly —
CM Moore: Yeah, I hate it.
Mayor Lockwood: These — these meetings should have — you know, this should have
been discussed prior. Um, so, you know, I don't really know what
the answer is. We — you know, I see a — I think we're all hearing
everybody's concerns. I think the big picture is concerns with the
big concerts and the 200 people there and —
Ms. Jackson: And we gave that up. That's gone.
Mayor Lockwood: No, I'm saying that — so, I'm just wondering — you know, we had a
motion earlier. We added a couple of things. People were getting
close. Um, you know, and then, on this next item, I assume this will
be addressed or not, I'm just trying to get a either solution or — I
don't want to force an applicant. I don't think it's fair for those that
are in support or — or — or against this the on the fly not, you know,
know what they're agreeing to. Saying they agree to something and
then, later — you know, I'd rather — I'd rather deny it than you come
back and agree it and then, find out that, you know, it's totally bad
for you.
It would be better, I think, for us to deny it. But, uh, not feel like you
got forced into something.
CM Bentley: I agree, thank you.
Mayor Lockwood: I don't know, Ken, if you have — I'm putting you on the spot if you
have — in 15 years, I don't think I've had one like this.
Mr. Jarrard: No. I mean, uh, look, it's — it's — it's going to be difficult. To me,
obviously, the Council, obviously, is — is — got a lot of strong
feelings about this. And — and, uh, I don't think it's my job to step
in and just try to, you know, overcome — and I know that's not what
you were suggesting.
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Mayor Lockwood: Sure, no.
Mr. Jarrard: I do think we have some tough decisions to make. We have a rule
that requires the Council to approve going past midnight. Um, and
we're, you know, not through — we've got another one after this one
to get through. Um, but — but, again, it's difficult. I mean, the — the
— the party up here is just still wanting to engage and — and the
Council seems ready to continue engaging. Um —
CM Cookerly: So, is there a mechanism where we can adjourn this meeting for
engagement between the — the parties and bring it back at the next
council meeting.
Mr. Jarrard: There — there is always that opportunity.
Mayor Lockwood: Yeah. Absolutely. But that's —
Mr. Jarrard: There's always that opportunity. The only — the only reason I'm
sheepish about offering is because the last time we postponed, the
Council was very divided on the postponement.
Ms. Jackson: Well, if that's offered, I mean, I — I — yeah, I mean, this is too
overwhelming. And I don't even really know what's being asked of
me. So, I would accept it taking the time to go then to understand it
to the next council meeting.
CM Cookerly: Well, I bring it up because I feel uncomfortable giving away a land
use control opportunity, which was outlined at the very beginning at
the time of alcohol permit, which is where the power would be if
things become egregious. I think things become egregious when you
go from the projected 10 people to 100 people just on — on wine
tasting regardless of events, etc. So, to me, with the points that have
been made tonight, we're making progress.
I feel like if we're capping numbers of people substantially and —
and scaling back and finding agreement on where we're parking cars
and where we're not parking cars for a line of sight that we're taking
care of concerns that people have that we might be on a path that
could be solved in a meeting or two perhaps maybe in the spirit,
Ellen, of your letter that you think perhaps we or that the — the folks
misinterpreted. Although they don't think they did. Maybe you
would take another pass at finding an intent on — on negotiation. And
we could come to an agreement outside of this chamber.
You know, the old saying if it don't fit, don't force it. I mean, I — I
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feel like that's where we are. So, are we — I — I don't think we have
any energy or passion to give up an opportunity to control something
to be negotiated. You all correct me if I'm wrong, okay, because I'm
not speaking for you. I'm just giving my opinion. I'm welcome to
hear your — your opinion.
Mayor Lockwood: Laura?
CM Bentley: So, I — the last thing I want is for you not to understand, you know,
what — what was attempted to be done. So, I — I don't want to do
that. Um, I also know that we've been at this for a while. And I know
that — I — I understand your hesitation on the numbers and the
parking. But that was the control that — that we were really trying to
get to. And, you know, it's — this is not easy. So, I — I don't — I don't
want to deny this but I — I feel like I don't have a choice. And that's
I'm not going to — I'm not going to, um — you know, what we've
been living through as a community for a year has been difficult.
And — and we're trying to get the intensity of the use to a point that
is acceptable. And I don't know if there's a point.
Ms. Jackson: Well, and — and I'm willing to work on those things. My problem at
this particular moment'is I haven't really had an opportunity to look
at what you've suggested. And I've got to sit down and see if that's
even viable for me to run a business that way because, off the top of
my head, I mean, I've been so — I have to make — it has to financially
be self-sustaining. Um; and if it's not then, it's not worth it to me to
even stay there. So, that's what I need to sit down and look and see
if the conditions and the restraints that you are putting on that, will
I be able to financially survive that.
And I don't want to just pour money into something, I mean, that's
just, you know, going to be a money pit because I don't — I'm not
able to make the money on it.
CM Bentley: So — so, I will make a prediction. You are going to make more
money selling wine than having horses and equestrian activities,
okay. I mean, that's just — and — and so that is why the protections
are here. Okay. That's — that's why we're trying to limit and
separate, okay. And — and that's just what I see as my responsibility.
CM Jamison: Hey, Councilmember Bentley, I thought of something. Um, would
it help in your motion or maybe anyone's motion that it sounds like
within this use permit, it sounds like the uses are not the issue. It
sounds like it's the variance request for the parking. Is that correct?
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So, could we approve that — so, could we approve, you know, the
use but defer the variance? Is that —
CM Cookerly: I — I — why — why do that?
CM Jamison: Well, no. I'm — I'm just — because it's —
CM Cookerly: Because look, I'm not willing to give up a land use tool when we
need to sort — and the applicant needs an opportunity to — counsel
for private citizens needs the opportunity to sort through it. We need
the — you know.
CM Jamison: I just don't know how they're going to sort through all of that and
that's all.
CM Moore: The part that's frustrating for me —
CM Cookerly: You seem reasonably intelligent.
CM Moore: The part that's frustrating for me is that we're re — we're — we're —
we're giving —
CM Jamison: Well, I understand.
CM Moore: -- we're — we're — what we generated was in response to what the
applicant told us.
CM Jamison: Just throwing an idea out there.
CM Moore: And now, the confusion part is puzzling to me when it's things that
I heard. So, that's what drove the hours that went into this
preparation of this. They were all conditions that we believed to be
acceptable on what we heard.
CM Longoria: So, Paul, I think where we fell short was that normally, when we go
off after a deferral from a meeting, we get to do two things. We get
to agree on what the things are that we need to put into language in
the — the item we're going to approve. And then, we, actually, get to
put it in — in the item that we need to approve. So, we've gotten half
of this done. You guys think that you've got a list of things or — or
it's an incomplete list. So, we need a little bit more work with the
applicant to make sure we've got the list right. And then, we can put
that language into something that we can approve.
And that way, we're not coming in it cold, right. It's — it's not
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something that we have to read off a piece of paper. It's — it was
provided as part of a packet and an agenda.
(A] Moore: Just to be clear about the process that took place since the deferral
was it was suggested that there would be a series of meetings that
would take place between the state —
CM Longoria:
Right.
CM Moore:
-- and the applicant supported by staff and two members of Council.
CM Longoria:
Right.
CM Moore:
That took place. There was a staff — uh, staff, Council, and
stakeholder meeting that was a healthy discussion. Uh, applicant
didn't participate in that one. I don't think — I don't think they were
invited to that one. Then, there was another meeting that took place
that included the applicant, same list of people but included the
applicant. Generated some healthy conversation that — that there was
probably — I — I wasn't in that meeting so I don't know exactly how
it went down. But I got the impression there was going to be some
— there was some — both sides were heard. Then, both sides
generated their list of must haves.
And then, it — when they both generated that, there was a parting of
the ways because the stakeholders couldn't agree to the list that the
applicant provided. And the applicant couldn't agree to the list of
the stakeholder —
Ms. Smith: That's not quite right.
CM Moore: Oh — oh, okay. But hear me out. So, then — I'm talking about the
process as I understood it so far and you can correct me in a minute.
Um, and then — so then, in an effort to try to find another way to get
to the end result, we — we offered a chance to get together and we
took advantage of it on Thursday of this week. So, it was eleventh
hour because everything else had fallen apart so that we didn't have
the normal length of time to process all these things where it might
have ended up in a staff report for all of us to consider as a part of
our packet.
CM Longoria: So, if we deferred this —
CM Moore: That's what generated the list tonight from Councilmember Bentley.
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CM Longoria:
No, I understand. I figured it was fairly hot off the presses. But how
much more time do you think we need in order to be ready to vote
on this?
CM Moore:
That's on them. I'm ready to vote on this.
CM Cookerly:
Yeah.
CM Moore:
I think we've made some really good suggestions.
CM Jamison:
I also would like our city attorney to —
CM Moore:
That's my point is I want to be ready.
Mayor Lockwood: And — and I don't know — you know, and it may not be fair to put
the applicant through and — and the — the public that are either for or
against to put through another meeting. You know, my [inaudible]
[05:18:35] allow you to use — do the same uses you've been doing
that no one seems to have a problem with. Also, you want a farm
winery but keep it quaint to where it's not situated in that — not a
deterrent to the neighbors. Obviously, you'd have to figure out, you
Ms. Jackson:
Mayor Lockwood:
[Crosstalk]
know, how to make it profitable. But because the big issues I've seen
all along was just on the big, huge concerts, the traffic, the noise,
and all that.
We pulled all that.
If we could —
Mayor Lockwood: And that's the end goal, in my perspective. That's a win/win.
Ms. Smith: But Joe —
CM Mohrig: Joe. Joe.
Mayor Lockwood: But now I'm — you got to figure out how do we get there or — or is
that where everybody else wants to get.
CM Cookerly: Okay. But that is important but that —
Mayor Lockwood: Let — let Rick — let Rick say something and then, Carol.
CM Mohrig: Yeah. Could — could I ask — could I ask the applicant and her
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attorney a question? When — when we, initially — when you, initially,
Pam, came before us and proposed what you wanted from a business
standpoint, what you needed as far as, you know, the — the tasting,
the number of people, and whatever, it had nothing to do with — with
what you've been doing. And now, what you're telling us, at least
what I'm hearing is what you, initially, proposed to us when we
approved the winery and the tasting, you're saying that that's — you
you can't run a business with what you requested from us initially?
You need to do what you've been doing the last year with the outside
music and the large groups?
Ms. Smith: Uh, we can. Uh, we absolutely agree to know outside music and no
large groups. I'm not sure I totally understand your question. If you
mean what was proposed —
CM Mohrig: Well, I — I guess what I was trying to understand is I thought I
heard in some of the discussion, and I apologize for not being able
to be there in person, but I thought what I heard in the discussion a
few minutes ago was that you needed to have these large crowds,
um, for the wine — for the winery in order to — to make the business
sustainable. I thought that's what I had heard Pam say.
Ms. Smith: No.
Mayor Lockwood: You still didn't say what that number is, I think.
Ms. Smith: That's right. And — and to be fair, um, and not to backtrack, no part
of the three applications that were filed by the applicant ever
contemplated limiting or addressing the farm winery because we
understood that that was a permitted by right use. And so, what you
have is an applicant who is, as of July 8 when I sent back a letter and
just to convect the — the process that we had was the city is hosting a
meeting on June 28, I think. Send us your list of needs before that,
which we did. And the community also sent a letter. And we sat
down and had a very robust discussion. And then, we were told
please resubmit.
You know, you've heard these things. Submit more conditions to
respond to that, which we did. And we'll have another meeting,
which we were teed up to have and then, we were said — we were
told nobody wants to meet with you. They — they reject your
conditions. So, it hasn't been — there's only so much negotiating
against one's self that can happen. Um, but I say all that to say the
farm winery, I hear the concerns. And I hear your desire to hold onto
land use, uh, the stick, if you will —
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CM Cookerly: Correct.
Ms. Smith: -- to, uh, address that. I think that you have an applicant who had
proposed in our July 8 conditions limitations on the farm winery. It
sounds like they didn't go as far as you would like. And the
opportunity to address that and go back to the drawing board and
consider it after we've heard respectfully what you've proposed and
think about it from an operations standpoint, we would like that
opportunity. Uh, we don't want to waste anyone's time.
Mayor Lockwood: Can I ask a question? What — what were those numbers? Do you
remember?
Ms. Smith: Uh, I think it was 100. I — I — I can go back and look.
Mayor Lockwood: The only reason I ask, I mean, we talked about parking. We talked
about [inaudible] [05:22:40] issues. It sounds like we were close
until the 50, um, and then, that was kind of an impasse on your side.
Is it — you know, is that —
Ms. Jackson: I think ours was — I think ours was 100 but I reserve the right for her
to go back and check. But as I recall, what we proposed was 100.
CM Moore: But — but let me just go back to something I want to make sure we
don't lose sight of. And that was when you portrayed what the
winery and tasting room was going to look like when you pursued
your alcohol consumption permit was it was going to be 10 people
by appointment.
Ms. Jackson: Well — well, I didn't even have a —
CM Moore: Ten people by appointment.
Ms. Jackson: Well, I don't — I don't have —
Ms. Smith: And as I said, that's the first I've heard of it this evening.
Ms. Jackson: I mean, I haven't gone back and looked at that. And I'd have to go
back and to — to see it again. That was 2019. I don't recall exactly.
But what I do know is, at that time, I didn't have any customers. I
didn't have — I mean, it was new. Things progress. I mean, if I were
to stay at that, I — I wouldn't have a business. So, it wasn't that I'm
being deceptive or trying to change what was originally there.
Things just naturally progress.
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CM Moore: But — but please understand where we're struggling is that when you
go back to the main meeting, there was a permit granted based on
the portrayal of what the winery was going to be. And we can quote
you your own words that were read earlier this evening again that
said 10 people signing up on a Thursday by appointment. And then,
we went to concerts with 250 people that was a way too intense use
for the neighborhood. And now, we're talking about 100 or 50. So,
can you appreciate our frustration a little bit with that?
Ms. Smith: I do. And with respect, I would like the opportunity to, for myself
because I haven't and you have had the opportunity to go back to
look at that hearing but that also, to Mr. Jarrard's point, is a liquor
licensing matter. Um, and it has not been until we proposed the sort
of omnibus solution three weeks ago, the farm winery use has not
been part of this application process. And so, you have an applicant
who — I — I do understand the frustration. I think that staff and
everyone else so bucketed these uses that it made it difficult to
understand the total intensity of the operation of the farm. And so,
the July 8 proposed conditions were an attempt to say here's the
totality including the farm winery.
I — I understand your patience. I need to go back and look at it.
CM Cookerly: Well, I — Ms. Poe, can I make a point please? But and — and Mayor,
I — I have to respectfully disagree. When — when we talk about
what's transpired and we say well, we've got rid of the concerts,
etc., etc., so then, we're, basically — it comes across as in the clear
in terms of nuisance to the neighbors. And — and I don't think we
are. And I think that if we go up to 100 people at the winery plus,
you still have the activity on the equestrian side, you're looking at
more cars, potentially, than you have legitimate parking spaces for.
So, then we're back to the issues that have been the rub from the get
go.
So, I would — would hope that you could huddle or if — if we're
going to pursue this tonight that you would rethink that because
that's a very high number on a — on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday,
Sunday. That — that's — I — I'm guessing from what we've heard
from the neighbors this whole time, it's — it's — it's too much.
Mayor Lockwood: Is it safe to say though that we hear from the neighbors is when
there's a huge event and music and whatnot? And — and here, again,
let me say this and — and in respect to everybody here and we're not
putting you on the stand. I mean, don't feel like when we say well,
you only said this and you're changing your mind — anybody that's
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had a business or anything in your life, you know it changes. We
didn't know what to expect. We approved a winery thinking
something. It's different. The neighbors didn't know what to expect.
They were probably okay with it and until bigger events and more
traffic and all that.
So, right now, we're kind of — we have a second chance to look at it
in everybody's perspective. So, I think that's kind of where — where
— you know, we're trying to not force you out, give you something
workable but also protect our neighbors and — and protect our, you
know — our — our citizens as a whole, too. So, it — it's a — it's a tough
— tough situation now. So, I know it's hard to say well, you know, I
said 10 now but is, uh — is really the number 100 or is it 75 or do we
split the difference or something like that? We're all in this, you
know, trying to figure out what the right thing is.
CM Cookerly: Well, the — the issue for the people in the vicinity becomes let's say
you have 100 people and you have 50 on the other side doing the
equestrian thing. It comes to the end of the hour and people are ready
to go. I mean, that's — that's the time for the police. You know, it's
another blue light at the intersection and you've got all this activity.
And that — and that is not what we've heard for months and months.
You know, just forget this thing about the big events. That's still a
lot of people leaving at one time. It's the equivalent of a concert.
So, if you could find a way that you can negotiate that piece of it, I
think that then, we — we have opportunity to find common ground,
um, because that's proper — that's a lot of people. That's a lot of
stuff.
Mayor Lockwood: In all due respect, I agree, too. But I just don't know exactly what is
the number, 25, 50, or 75. And I don't know that you can, you know
— we're coming — is — is ours — the number we came up or somebody
came up with thinks it's right, but —
CM Cookerly: You know, at the end of the day —
CM Moore: Somebody has to pick a number at some point.
CM Cookerly: Well, okay. But here's the other thing, at the end of the day —
CM Moore: And you have to remember, too — I'm sorry, Carol. What you have
to remember, too, is at the end of the day, the — the intent of this is
to find a business — to accommodate a business that's already
existing that can also co -exist in Milton with what we call a very
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special place, Miltonesque. And — and so, it — it got too intense. So,
it wasn't Miltonesque. And so, that's when you got the pushback
from the community.
Ms. Jackson: That's when we pulled the third application that was what caused
that.
CM Cookerly: Okay. And — and I hear you but this has the — this has the opportunity
to be the same with the volumes about which you're speaking. And
so, you know, you're - you're still at a threshold of troublesome.
One hundred and fifty people and all those cars leaving in a short
time span is no different than that and a concert. Yeah, maybe not
the noise but it's at a — that's a lot of commotion.
Mayor Lockwood: Let me offer something then. If, you know, let's say — and I'm trying
to be practical about this. The birthday parties, equestrian things
and whatnot, I know they overlap. But in reality, would those things
people be leaving at 5:00 mainly, 4:00, 6:00? Would the wine tasting
be more coming at 5:00 maybe leaving at 8:00? I think the number
was 8:00 or whatever. You know, and is there a number, you know
— let's say — I know you might have mentioned 100. We've had 50.
Is — is 75 a number on that? And then, you adjust the number with
the others. They leave at a different time? I'm just looking for
possible solutions to make a reasonable decision.
If not, we could — if not, we either need to agree to defer —
CM Moore: Let me offer up a critical consideration that you — I like where you're
going with that, Joe. But here's a — here's a — here's a part that's not
movable. And that is the — the consumption on premises is still
confined to the tasting room and adjacent — immediately adjacent
area. That — that's not negotiable. That's — that's a requirement. It's
not negotiable.
Mayor Lockwood: Kind of a — an operational and a —
CM Moore: But hear me out on the rest of it. So, right now, you have until the
end of September with your existing tasting room. And that has to
come to an end because that is the —that's where that ends. And you
proposed a temporary tasting room that was going to be about 600
square feet and maybe an — an — a — a patio immediately adjacent to
that. So, how many people — you can't put 100 people in a 600
square foot tasting room and a patio immediately adjacent to it
because the — what you've been doing historically where they're
wandering into the green area that — you can't do that. That's not
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under the tasting room and immediately adjacent area. that's not
available to you regardless.
Ms. Jackson: I don't know how it is with — with — with the city. I don't recall all
that. But I do know that that whole area — green area going down to
that first vineyard is bonded by the federal government and the state
government as winery. Now, I'm not trying to argue your point
because I don't recall what was said at that. And we would need to
go back.
CM Moore: Well, but — but to be clear, your understanding of what the definition
is and what has been stated as the definition that trumps. The dated
— the stated definition is tasting room and immediately adjacent area.
And if you proposed a 600 square foot tasting room and the
immediate adjacent area, that's not going to accommodate 100
people. After your existing — your existing tasting room comes to an
end the end of September, you've — you've got to scramble pretty
quick to get up your 300 square foot tasting room plus your
immediately adjacent area.
Otherwise, you can't have 20 people there because you can't
accommodate them in that area because the lawn that's defined as a
winery area is for other wine — winery related agrarian activities, not
for the consumption.
Ms. Smith: I don't think we're prepared to respond to that because —
CM Moore: Well, it's an important consideration that you have to think about
because your —
Ms. Smith: No, absolutely.
CM Moore: -- your existing tasting room is coming to an end.
Ms. Smith: I understand.
CM Moore: You have to have a solution. You — right now, you've said to us that
the larger tasting room, you hadn't contemplated 3,000 square feet.
You had, at one point, contemplated 8,000 and 12,000 —
Ms. Smith:
CM Moore
Ms. Smith:
Not for tasting.
-- but those are not happening any time soon.
And not for tasting.
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CM Moore: Right. Well, would the tasting room have —have existed within that?
Ms. Smith: Yes. And I think we proposed a maximum of 1,500 feet.
CM Moore: Okay. So, let's — let's work with 1,500 square feet just —just as a —
for — for — for a working example.
Ms. Smith: I understand.
CM Moore: Do you see where I'm trying to go with this?
Ms. Smith: I understand your example.
CM Moore: Because your numbers aren't going to mesh because you can't put
100 people in a 1,500 square foot tasting room —
Ms. Smith: We have to go back to look at that.
CM Moore: -- and an immediately adjacent area for consumption. Your business
model doesn't work under that. That — that's not something we're
imposing upon you. That's a — that's something you signed up for
when you got your consumption permit.
Ms. Smith: And we'll look at the square footage for that area.
CM Moore: That — that's a — that's a — that's a problem that we may not be able
to overcome.
CM Bentley: So, I think we need to — we need to know the interpretation, you
know, of — of the boundary that we allowed the consumption on
premises for. And if — if that is attainable, it — I mean, I don't know
Mr. Jarrard: Well, I mean, the — the boundary is — is what's set forth in the code.
And that's that immediately adjacent. And I know what that is and I
think I can better explain what it isn't.
CM Bentley: Okay.
Mr. Jarrard: Right. But — but I will also tell you that the city, as a whole, has
shown some forbearance and grace with this establishment. And I
think that's been reciprocated, not maybe in — in some ways that
some of the citizens want. But there has been sort of a detente while
we work through this use permit. And I think everybody from the
city's perspective understood that when this matter was decided one
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way or the other that it was likely going to be sort of a regulatory
reckoning. But that makes a lot more sense after this process than
before it. I hope you — the Council understands what I'm trying to
say.
But depending upon what occurred this evening, it's — I'm very
aware that I need to get with the city manager and our regulatory
staff. And I'll be dealing with Ms. Smith and Mr. Crecelius. But I'll
be — but we didn't know what the outcome of this was going to be
first. And so, I think even Ms. Smith would agree, there has been
discussions and there have been forbearance while these use permits
went forward so we could have the will of the Council in some of
these land use matters.
CM Moore: So, for in — for — in terms of a process standpoint, the last thing we
want to have happen tonight is to find an impasse and get to a denial
because a denial then, also prohibits them from coming back before
us for a year, correct, on a land use like that? We don't allow —
Mr. Jarrard: Um, on the same or substantially the same application.
ICM Moore: Yeah. We don't want to do that. That means they can't operate for a
year.
Mr. Jarrard: Well, I don't know that it means that. I mean, again, this use permit
is pertaining — not pertaining to the winery. Now, that is roped into
it because of the amalgamation of uses. I understand that. Um,
anyway, I mean, we're getting into an area though that I really think
CM Jamison: Ken, do we — if we approve this use permit, do we lose any
regulatory control over the farm winery?
Mr. Jarrard: Well, I mean, it's a difficult question to answer and let me tell you
why. Because — because the applicant is showing a willingness to
want to — to want to work with you all to blend those in. So, when
you say are we giving up anything if we deny, yeah, a little because
they're willing to —to —to have those be condensed and consolidated
and collapsed. But I also believe that we have formidable regulatory
authority in addition to our land use controls on what, uh, AGI looks
like but also our alcohol licensure is very powerful as well. And that
can — that could affect things like where you can consume further
tightening that down.
That — that could go to volume, a volume of alcohol that can be
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consumed. That could go to hours of operation, sure. All sorts of
alcohol codes regulate that. So, but, again, I — you know, I was — I
was optimistic and I still am that — that there might be a sort of a
symbiotic coming together here that might make the regulatory
landscape more amicable than adversarial.
CM Cookerly: So, previously, I mentioned a deferral because I don't think that we
are — I mean, I would hope that with that we could have much more
intense discussion. And I can appreciate that both sides and the
audience would be very frustrated with that. But if it is a shot at an
amicable agreement that works for both sides, um, I think that would
be outstanding. And furthermore, I would really hate to see, uh, this
body have to do something punitive with an alcohol license because
I think that takes us into a different realm and takes us into an
adversarial relationship, which I don't think is, um, what either of
us want. I'm just guessing.
So, um, that would be my hope. And my colleagues, what do you
think?
CM Longoria: So, because of potential alcohol use, we're denying it the right to
operate as a birthday party venue and as all the other things that are
on the list —
CM Cookerly: We're deferring. We're deferring so that they have an opportunity
to negotiate quantity. It's really down to —
CM Jamison: That's what we originally deferred it for last time.
Mayor Lockwood: I know.
CM Jamison: And so, that's why I
CM Cookerly: Okay. So, it did — so, it didn't happen, okay. They don't have time
to understand it so it didn't happen. Okay. So, what are we going to
do about it? Force it? No.
CM Moore: What we — what we didn't have at the time that we now have
something is —
CM Cookerly: Right. We put something together that's —
CM Moore: -- was more accommodating — well, let me say it differently. It was
more palatable —
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CM Cookerly: Right.
CM Moore: -- by some of the members of Council based on the discussion I've
heard this evening. That's a step forward.
CM Cookerly: It is a step forward.
CM Moore: We didn't — we didn't have any of that the last time. We had — we
had two parties that were not — there was no meeting in the middle.
There was an attempt to meet in the middle tonight by with what
Councilmember Bentley put forward. But if it's not acceptable to
the applicant, we're closer. Maybe —
CM Longoria: So, let me ask this question —
CM Cookerly: And you know — and you know what? For example, my limit is
that's too high. And I — you know, that's a nonstarter for me. So, I
think you're hearing from everybody.
CM Longoria: Let me ask this question. If we're going to defer this item, do we
defer the next one as well? Because, you know, it's the same open
door, right. If we approved anything without clamping down on
what the use is, we somehow lost an opportunity.
Mayor Lockwood: Well, or the question I was going to ask, since it sounds like we were
getting somewhat close other than the — maybe the number but if —
you know, if we could eliminate all the negative — the huge negative
issues and then, deal with — maybe deal with the numbers of the
alcohol consumption with enforcement based on our code, which
you — let's just say and I'm just going to — I'm not saying we're
going to pass this or let's say we said 100 and the applicant is okay
with it and the Council approved it then, also you got to live by the
code, too. And maybe it's only 85 or 65 or — or — or whatever, you
know, based on people coming and going. I mean, is that a way to
enforce it on — on this particular issue?
And that way, we at least could approve the — the — the usage — you
know, the agricultural usage they had venues in but still have some
control later to make sure it doesn't get excessive again with the
numbers?
Mr. Jarrard: Mr. Mayor, that's —that's always — that's always an option. But what
I'm hearing is and this is going back to Councilmember Moore's
point is I think everyone learned something this evening And
sometimes, actually, being in front of a tribunal that will make the
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 152 of 155
decision and hearing their mind in a collective way can be very
illuminating to those who would be regulated. And so, I suspect
there is now at least an appreciation of where the Council is prepared
to go, which did not exist two weeks ago. So, I do think that is a
powerful tonic that has been applied this evening. Uh, from the
standpoint of the regulatory alcohol code and then, the land use
code, yeah, they still have to work together.
They still have to fit together. I suspect if you meet or we have
further discussions with the applicant, they are going to want at least
some semblance of finality, uh, as part of this process. But, again,
that just remains to be seen. I think they will come in, however, eyes
wide open with where the Council is prepared to go on this.
Mayor Lockwood: So, what would the process look — I know, obviously, we can defer
it. I mean, I hate to do — you know, we've spent a lot of time.
Everybody in the audience and folks that were here earlier and
applicants that — you know, it's been a ton of time. So, deferring it's
not a palatable option. But if it makes the most sense, what is, you
know — what is the likelihood? Obviously, some of the points that
Councilmember Bentley brought up, you guys can digest some of
those.
You guys can — staff can talk about them and all that and the staff
come back to us and say here's something kind of that, you know,
we think makes sense that both sides, you know — how — how do
you envision that, again, because we've already deferred it once.
Mr. Jarrard: It — well, yeah. I mean, deferral, obviously, is just procedural. And
that's just a matter of saving it to whatever the meeting the Council
wants to go to. But in the meantime, what would need to happen is
candidly given that Councilmember Moore, Councilmember
Bentley, obviously, put some time into this, somebody who — who
— who — who has the interest in putting together those conditions
would need to get with the applicant and their attorney and — and
pound through them, um, and — and — and bring something back that
they think that, therefore, the applicant would be in support of and
— and maybe not but maybe it's close enough is the point.
But somebody needs to — would need to take the initiative.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. All right. Um, well, I will open up for a motion of some sort
of action. Approve — approve the changes, deny, or — or make a
motion for deferral.
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 153 of 155
CM Cookerly: All right. I'm going to make a motion. Mr. Mayor and Council, I
make a motion that we defer for further negotiation with the
applicant. Uh, let's see, um, Section 64-1797(D) and Section 64-
1797(E).
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Do you have — did you say a deferral for a time period?
CM Cookerly: Uh, until the next schedule council meeting, which is Wednesday,
August 2. All right. So, I'll — do you want me to say it again?
Mayor Lockwood: Is there any difference with what we have [inaudible] [05:43:48]
on the second? It doesn't matter, does it? Okay.
CM Cookerly: Do I need to restate it? Okay.
Mayor Lockwood: Go ahead.
CM Cookerly: No, I — I — Ken said I didn't have to restate.
Mayor Lockwood: Okay. Do I have a second?
CM Bentley: Second.
Mayor Lockwood: All right. I have a motion for deferral until the next meeting. And I
apologize to everybody in advance just with the time. But, um, from
Councilmember Cookerly and a second from Councilmember
Bentley. Any discussion?
CM Jamison: Yes, please. I just ask that in this course of time [inaudible]
[05:44:25] we take action — actions to have some discussion
collectively. How, when, or where that takes place, we'll look
forward to arranging. I also ask, with all due respect, would you
please be a good neighbor so that we don't have issues to address
because you haven't been a good neighbor between now and the
next hearing? Please be considerate. That's all I have.
Mayor Lockwood: All right. Um, all in favor, please say aye.
Councilmembers: Aye.
Mayor Lockwood: That passes unanimously.
CM Longoria: I'm abstaining just for the record. I can't feel like I can vote either
way.
Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 154 of 155
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Cookerly moved to defer Agenda Item No.
21-160 to the next City Council Meeting (8/02/2021). Councilmember Bentley
seconded the motion. Councilmember Longoria sustained. The motion passed
(6-1).
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Cookerly moved to defer Agenda Item No.
21-161 to the next City Council Meeting. Councilmember Bentley seconded the
motion. Councilmember Longoria sustained. The motion passed (6-1). (Public
hearing of this item will resume (at the next regular council meeting) first with
commenters who were not able to speak.)
Mayor Lockwood: We've got four minutes to hear the second one.
CM Cookerly: No, I just deferred both of them.
City Clerk: You just voted on both.
Mayor Lockwood: Oh, you did?
CM Cookerly: I did. I did.
City Clerk: She announced both.
CM Mohrig: She did.
CM Cookerly: People, I'm wide awake. Come on.
Mayor Lockwood: Ken, are we good on that procedure wise?
Mr. Jarrard: I am. I mean, that means that when the next one comes up, when —
when it is deferred to, we will have a — we don't have to have the
hearing again on this one, right, because we've — we've already done
the hearing. Discussion only. But when that next one comes up, we
will have to have the hearing on that. We haven't had it. That's
perfectly in order though. That's fine. Anyway, we're three minutes
away from having the —
Mayor Lockwood: All right. Okay. We don't have any staff reports so, um, I'll open up
for a motion to adjourn.
CM Jamison: So moved.
CM Cookerly: Second.
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Regular Meeting of the Milton City Council
Monday, July 19, 2021
Page 155 of 155
Mayor Lockwood: We have a motion and a second to adjourn. All in favor, please say
aye.
Councilmembers: Aye.
Motion and Vote: Councilmember Moore moved to adjourn the meeting at 11:57
PM. Councilmember Cookerly seconded the motion. The motion passed (7-0).
Date Approved: b 2021
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