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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes CC - 02/21/2007 - MINS 02 21 07 SCWS (Migrated from Optiview)Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 1 of 12 Work Session of the Milton City Council was held Thursday, February 21, 2007 at 5:30 p.m. Mayor Joe Lockwood presiding. All Councilmembers were present. Mayor Lockwood stated that Work Sessions are a more informal setting to update the Council on business items. No votes will be taken. Public comment is allowed if it is germane to an agenda item. If you wish to speak you are required to fill out a public comment card and turn it in to the City Clerk. Public comment will be allowed for a total of 10 minutes per agenda item, 2 minutes per person. Discussion on Scheduling the Next Retreat City Manager Bovos stated that at the February 15th Council Meeting, we announced the next retreat dates of March 26 & 27. Subsequent to that announcement he has had some feedback that those dates do not work for everybody. His goal this afternoon is to try to determine Council’s desire to move forward with the Retreat, if that is still a desire of City Council. He is requesting the Council’s preference on scheduling with respect to weekdays versus weekends and what particular times work in the upcoming months if the Council’s wishes to schedule the retreat. In addition to that your desire to have continuity with a facilitator in moving forward. Staff wanted to have continuity with the facilitator and that in and of itself raises some scheduling issues with respect to Scot Wrighton’s availability. He welcomed any feedback with respect to March 26 and 27 as dates and would like to understand where Council is with respect to this so staff knows how to move forward. Mayor Lockwood stated that as we all know, we have rescheduled the retreats several times and he feels they are very important. He had asked the City Manager to find out the next available dates that we could have our facilitator, which was March 26 & 27 so we did move forward in that direction. He knows there are conflicting schedules; some people would rather have them on weekends, some people would rather have them during the week; we have even talked about blending the two. At the time that was the only available slots that this facilitator would be available. We were hoping that everyone could make that work, but it sounds like there are some scheduling issues. He feels the retreats are very important and we would like to work out a day that everyone can plan on being there and stick with it. Again, the last date that the City Manager set up was based on the only available time our facilitator had. He will now open it up for comments. Councilmember Thurman stated that she had expressed to the City Manager back in January that she really could not make the retreat between March 15 and April 15. Any other time of the year is fine, but that is the time of year, unfortunately due to her paying job, she is not able to make a retreat that would be a two day retreat. Councilmember Zahner Bailey stated she is available the 26th and the 27th. Her understanding is that Scot Wrighton was not available other dates. City Manager Bovos responded that Mr. Wrighton gave a list of his available dates through the end of April and the other option was subsequently spring break. We obviously chose not to schedule a retreat during spring break and chose March 26 & 27, but at this point we can certainly look at the end of April. He does not remember if he has anything the last week in April or May, June, July time frame. Councilmember Zahner Bailey stated she did not know everybody’s schedule and asked if there was a way to do something sooner to accommodate Councilmember Thurman’s schedule or any other scheduling conflict. She is concerned that the further we push it out that we may never end up with the retreat dates. She thinks we are all in agreement that it is healthy for us as a Council. Mayor Lockwood asked City Manager Bovos to explain to the public some of the topics we may not have our retreat agenda and why it is important or us to meet. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 2 of 12 City Manager Bovos stated that in the first retreat, and he will absolutely answer the question in addition to correct some further information in respect to Mr. Wrighton, but during the first retreat everybody recalls that we did begin to define the mission statement and the values which are paramount to us moving forward as well as the work plan. The goal for the second retreat and one of the reasons why we wanted continuity with Mr. Wrighton is because there is some unfinished work to be done with values and the mission statement. Certainly, that is not a requirement and by that he means if we wanted a different facilitator because we wanted to move it forward, he could try to contact UGA and find out if they had a different facilitator and move that earlier than later. His fear in losing Mr. Wrighton is that we would repeat for the sake of the facilitator’s perception everything that we had previously done because they have no background other than a several page report that was distributed this week. The goal for the second retreat, and several agenda items are in the process of being formulated, would be to finish the values and the mission statement. Initially, we had come back thinking that staff would work on some additional drafts of those, quite honestly, that is not where he would like to see staff invest their time. He thinks the mission statement and the values are paramount to Council’s beliefs and would not want to have staff’s influence on that without Council being present for any of those discussions. The retreat format is really the best place for that to occur. In addition to that we have some definitions of work plans and our goal is to present, on the March 1 agenda, the work plan. Subsequently to that, we need to inform the Council about how we are going about doing those work plans. For example, the comprehensive plan was one of the legacy projects that were ranked number 1 during the last meeting. Our goal for the next retreat would be to outline how we are going to accomplish any of the legacy and non legacy projects and staff allocations going to move forward and so on and so forth. We have a couple of other items that have not been finalized and he hesitates to share some of those until we get some additional information. The work plan and the definition of the mission statement and values is where we are now. With respect to how often retreats are scheduled, traditionally we will not be doing retreats every quarter and he does not want people to feel like that is an ongoing activity. During the annual budget process, we will define both the budget review and the upcoming work plan so you will more than likely have once a year a 2 to 3 day retreat that accomplishes both of those tasks at one particular time. If there is subsequent business items that come up that would justify a retreat we would do that, but on an ongoing annual basis it is pretty common for a once a year or at most every six months this type activity versus as frequently as we have had them. Mayor Lockwood stated to make sure everybody is clear, the dates that City Manager Bovos had suggested that Scot Wrighton was available. He was not trying to pick a time that was convenient or not convenient for anybody here because, quite honestly, everybody has a different schedule. Those dates were not picked to be good for one person and not good for another. City Manager Bovos added that one of the challenges we face with UGA is this is now going to be the 2nd to 3rd cancellation on dates that we have committed to, which is fine, however, they are going to begin to not extend the gratitude of when we enter into these contracts for retreats, the ability to cancel them without penalty clauses. He really needs for us to either figure out if we are doing one or we are not doing one and commit to dates because every time we do that and he notifies Mr. Wrighton and he blocks his calendar, his staff sends us a confirmation. Yes, we have committed to these dates, you accept them, we send an email back that says yes, and technically we are under contract at that point and time for the fees. He is actually kind of a little bit in a hot spot with them because we have committed now for the 3rd time to have this retreat and it needs to be rescheduled. We will take care of that, but he does not want to have that continue for us and either for them as well. There was much discussion on Mr. Wrighton’s availability for the next couple of months. City Manager Bovos said he would prefer for Council to pick days of the week that work in a traditional setting and he will then get back with Mr. Wrighton and say we are looking for a Thursday/Friday or a Friday/Saturday, Saturday/Sunday, whatever that is, if that could be the discussion first and he could at least tell Mr. Wrighton what we are looking for. It sounds like that is the first issue that needs to be worked through – whether we want to do it during the week or we want to do it on a weekend. Mayor Lockwood suggested we start with each Councilmember and see what works the best for them. Councilmember Thurman said realistically she is available either weekdays or weekends other than from March 1 – April 15. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 3 of 12 Councilmember Zahner Bailey said she is available either weekdays or weekends as she has been and she would not mind a combination. Her preference is that we all get together and have a retreat so she will be as flexible as she needs to be. Councilmember Lusk said as a business owner he has a livelihood to make and people to manage. He will devote all the time he can to this City, but preferably after hours and on weekends. He will stay here until 5:00 am if that is what it takes during the week. Mayor Lockwood said he is flexible. He would prefer during the week, but he is certainly flexible to the group if we want to split it. He wants to also be respectful of staff. He thinks it is probably better during the week for staff, but again he is sure they will do whatever too. Councilmember O’Brien said previously he commented that the weekends are best. To him, the ideal setting would be a Friday night check in if we are offsite and probably have a work session or an initial session that evening and then a very full day Saturday and perhaps a session on Sunday. But, at the very least, he would say we should straddle the weekend. Again, he wants to remind staff of his support if we need to accommodate for respect the staff that would be placed in a position working on a traditional off day that we examine the possibly of comp time consistent with the City Manager’s wishes. He believes that would be appropriate. He too is concerned about the weekday impact and although he has some flexibility, he is mindful that several on the Council have occasionally indicated problems with weekday scheduling and even if they are being respectful in the desire to attend, it is still an underlying challenge. The other thing he would point out for many they may not be aware of that practically every day there is something certainly for the Mayor and they are significant religious dates for some. This is the second event of the day and that is not that unusual. Those all in comparison to the staffs’ commitment, but he would ultimately go for the weekend. Councilmember D’Aversa-Williams said she had sent an email earlier suggesting that we straddle either a Friday/Saturday or a Sunday/Monday, but be conscious of Sunday being a day for those of us who worship to go to church and she would prefer not to miss Sunday morning. If we were to start on Sunday and go into Monday, or start on Friday through Saturday night late that would be her preference. We have spent an entire weekend away already where the GMA made the decision to go into Sunday, but said she thinks we should set a date and we need to figure out a way to be there. It should be set far enough in advance in the future that we do not have all this back and forth because this is getting a little ridiculous. Councilmember Mohrig said for him, similar to Councilmember Lusk, he can work after hours and is more than willing to do that and on weekends. We have quite a few meetings where we had to break during the day to go to those meetings and he is kind of at the limit where now he needs to focus on his livelihood. He would prefer a weekend, Saturday/Sunday, and then if we need to do other sessions do it after hours. That would be his preference. Mayor Lockwood said it seems to him probably the win-win, if there is one that would be straddle on the weekend. Mayor Lockwood suggested that we take all this discussion into consideration and then find out when we can get a facilitator and maybe it is a combination of Scott Wrighton one day and maybe someone else the next day or if Scott can do it for two days and ask our City Manager, keeping all this in mind and being sensitive, to see what makes the most sense within a reasonable time limit from now. We cannot really say a day right now if we do not know when the facilitator is available, but keep in mind what most people’s preference would be. When the City Manager finds out what those dates are he could email them to everybody and get some comments and put this thing to bed and move forward. He also wanted to clarify that technically we are looking at this as a two day retreat and a lot of people are thinking that is three days away. What we were looking at doing was actually having one night away and scheduling it so our first day begins from 10:00 am – 6:00 pm rather than 8:00 am – 5:00 pm. He stated that way people could drive that morning and then spend the night one night and have the next session at 8:00 am – 4:00 pm. There will be plenty of time to drive back so that it does not impact you for three days. There was not public comment on this subject. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 4 of 12 Discussion on the City of Milton Sign Ordinance. Community Development Director Wilson stated it was a pleasure to be here to take up the remaining parts of the Sign Ordinance that we did not review back in December. As you recall we did begin this review, but we did not get finished before we ran out of time. Tonight, we are going to take the last 10 pages, which we were unable to review, and following that he would like to open it up to the first 25 pages in case anyone has comments or changes they would like to make. He also has comments from people in the neighborhoods, which he would like to address as we get through those parts. Director Wilson introduced the newest planner to their staff, Angela Rambeau. She comes to us from Gwinnett County where she has been there for eight years. She has a masters in city planning. In Gwinnett during the last eight years, she has managed the planning commission, the design and review board, the BZA, and she has been doing site plan reviews. Those are the things she will be doing for us. Director Wilson started with page 26 of the sign ordinance. State Route 9 Overlay District The Overlay District Sign Standards were taken out of the Overlay District and moved to the Sign Ordinance to know that all the sign regulations would be held in one location. Item B, Multi-Tenant Developments have a primary sign, 64 sq ft and 20 ft high. Councilmember Zahner Bailey commented that they have heard from citizens that live in that district that are concerned that we as a Council need to take a review of that overlay. She asked would we not want to take this opportunity to make it more in concert with the rest of Milton. Community Development Director Wilson stated it was his job to try to discern consensus where he could and prepare a second draft. Councilmember Lusk asked about the definition of “monument sign” addressed back in December. Community Development Director Wilson stated we do have a definition – “a free standing sign with a face not less than equal width of the sign face”. This would mean the base of the sign is as broad as the sign itself. Councilmember Lusk recalled that there was a conflict between Fulton County’s definitions versus the Design Review Board over the Overlay District definition. Community Development Director Wilson said as he recalled that Fulton County’s definition was that the base was at least ½ the size of the face. Councilmember Zahner Bailey said there were two other issues; the Northwest Fulton Overlay, The Birmingham Crosses and the Crabapple Plan. There were no monument signs and they were free standing signs only for those commercial locations. Because this is the Highway 9 district, it allows for monument signs. Constituents have made comments that they would like for the DRB to review these things and bring into compliance the Highway 9 Overlay. Community Development Director Wilson stated this was a great opportunity to let City Attorney Scott comment on adding these signs back to the Design Review Board. City Attorney Scott said sorry it is unconstitutional. It is too much local unfettered discretion to allow the signs to be reviewed by the DRB. Councilmember Zahner Bailey wanted to know if there was some approach that would legally protect us that would allow the DRB to comment, but would allow staff and our community development director to still have the final word to endure the legal premise that City Attorney Scott is mentioning. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 5 of 12 City Attorney Scott said he could look at the recommendation slightly further, but the case law that he read where case laws are concerned has been very tough on them. Mayor Lockwood asked Director Wilson how does these dimensions compare to what already exists in the Highway 9 corridor. Community Development Director Wilson stated the history along the Highway 9 corridor is essentially the history of Fulton County. They at one point, 10 – 12 years ago, allowed 128 sq ft signs, then went down to 96, then 72, now 64. Over the years, it has always been defended, but there are signs certainly 128 sq ft all the way down to 32 sq ft along that corridor. Councilmember Mohrig said if we could bring our sign ordinance into compliance, such as what Councilmember Zahner Bailey said, he thinks we want to get our overlay district, at least as the commercial side goes, as consistent as possible, including have the Design Review Board be part of the Highway 9 Overlay. He would like to see that done as soon as possible. Community Development Director Wilson stated they are working on making that amendment to include the Design Review Board’s overview of the Highway 9 overlay district within the next few months. It has to go through Planning Commission now. Councilmember Lusk stated in 26.1b, he thought he saw a correspondence recently that preferred the 64 sq ft in feet. He asked is that not the direction we went. Community Development Director Wilson stated that is in other districts that are not the Highway 9 Overlay. That is just the general maximum for commercial signs. In this district they are further restricted. Councilmember Zahner Bailey stated just to make sure her point was clear on the 20 ft that she is currently looking at she was suggesting that we drop that to be consistent with the overlays to make it a 6 ft high sign, 32 sq ft in size for a multi-tenant. And, to address one of the questions that Councilmember Mohrig mentioned, a lot of those sign sizes, especially on Highway 9 where you have residential where you might have multifamily, some of those sign faces also address those locations as well. So, it really helps to give a look and feel of Highway 9 regardless of use and she thinks that is what they have been hearing from the constituents that live along Highway 9. They want to see this Council improve the look of that and not further diminish it. Multi Tenant Developments on Corner Lots – there is a second free standing sign of 24 sq ft 4 ft high. Councilmember Zahner Bailey asked why we would want to allow additional signage on a corner lot when again that would be inconsistent with the overlays for the rest of Milton. That will be her consistent message today when we talk about Highway 9. Councilmember Thurman asked if it was a safety issue not to have a second sign on a corner lot and asked how people even know they are there. She asked is the second sign standard. In her dealings with Fulton County, it was standard to allow the second sign. She asked would this apply to a street in a development or a regular public street. Community Development Director Wilson stated the benefit to having a second sign on the corner lot on the secondary street would be to guide people into this establishment before they get to the intersection and have to turn onto the other street to get into this development. He can see a slight benefit there to keep people from going to the intersection, turning, and then onto the other street. Fulton County has always allowed one sign for street signage. This would not apply to a street within a development unless it is a public street, therefore making it street frontage. These are per street frontage. It is for commercial or office development. Councilmember Thurman asked in Director Wilson’s professional opinion, is it better to have a secondary sign there with the restrictions that we currently have? Community Development Director Wilson replied yes. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 6 of 12 Councilmember Zahner Bailey asked if we could bring the language into Page 26, Section 26.1c so that it specifically says “at the project entrance”. Community Development Director Wilson said they would add that language. Single Tenant Sites 32 Square Feet Signs 6 Foot High Signs - No changes #H- Sign Structure shall be in Accordance with Article 33 of the Fulton County Zoning Resolution - Community Development Director Wilson suggested the removal of #H. It is a cut and paste error. #I – Two Wall Signs for Business - All signs shall face public streets of pedestrian parking. Wall signs shall not exceed 100 sq ft or 5% of the applicable wall area which ever is less. (height by width) Councilmember O’Brien suggested that we limit the height to 6 times the height. There was much discussion, but no changes were decided. Window Signs 5% of a Window – used to be 10 now it is 5. There was discussion on this topic and it will remain at 5 % for now. Building Addresses and Street Names are Exempted from the 5%. Neon and Fluorescent Tubes are prohibited. Section R Prohibited Sign Types is listed two times. #2 Vehicles with signs on them cannot be parked within 50 feet of the right of way - Councilmember Thurman asked if that could be changed. Community Development Director Wilson suggested 100 feet. Mayor Lockwood asked staff if it was appropriate at this time to take public comment regarding the Highway 9 Overlay District. It was agreed to take public comment at this time. Public Comment John McMillan 14255 Thompson Road, Alpharetta, GA 30004, stated that he would like to say first, thank you so much for spending your time approving these fun issues and you all are doing a heroic tour of duty. He would like to provide a little history on the Highway 9 Overlay District. They started out in the early 90’s with this and Had community support from BARRA, Crooked Creek, and many others. They came to all these conclusions from a sign perspective after a lot of discussion and a lot of work with the business owners, as well as the community. Basically, and he thinks anyone would agree, signs are the primary mode of advertisement. Highway 9 is our commercial district; it was there the first. The other areas were kind of added on and we never really seen as having a lot of commercial businesses there. When we worked on this, the primary thing was to take the existing Fulton County ordinance and try to work with them in a manner that would really fit the wishes of the residents first and the businesses kind of on an equal basis. That was really what we tried to do. The first thing that he would like to point out is when you have a large building, 64 square feet is not that big of a sign, particularly with some of the ones like Wal-Mart and the others that are out there like Kroger. All those are that size or larger. If you think about that, that is a 8 foot by 8 foot sign, and that is not very big. The idea of being in a 45 mile a hour speed zone, you want to have something that is visible that does not create an issue, and you want it to be high enough so that it can be seen over the tops of the cars. That 64 feet, particularly for the larger scale things, is basically what is out there. If you change this thing, then you are going to have a tremendous lack of conformity. It is really going to look weird if you go in there and change it up so that you have several different sizes of signs and looks. The single tenant sites and out parcels, 32 square feet again, that is more in line with things like the out parcels over at Wal-Mart. They have 12 out parcels over there. He thinks the same kind of thing is going to happen at the Target site if you do not allow the single tenant to draw businesses. They have to pay sales taxes, make sales, pay rent to stay in business and give our City revenue. They need a sign that is visible and one that people can read and see inside these places. The monument setback from the right-of-way, basically Highway 9 has got either a 80 or 100 foot right-of-way and right now he thinks there is only 40 feet or something like that. If you set this sign back 10 feet from the right-of- way, it is not 10 feet from the back of Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 7 of 12 the curb necessarily, and it may be 30 of 40 feet off the right-of-way. He thinks the sign monument is either 5 feet or it was 0 feet, and we changed it to five feet the last time around. The reason we did that was so that it would still have a chance to be seen particularly along Highway 9 where you have got these large right-of-ways. So that was the thinking behind the math. To his knowledge, we will not allow window signs in their shopping centers. He does not think so under the code either. Neon signs, you know every open sign you see is the neon tube sign. Awning - definitely want to allow signs for that because of the look. The other thing he wants to say and this is off the subject, he thinks that the idea of having a billboard that is 72 sq ft is an excellent idea. That is not commercially viable. So if you want to prohibit the billboards, keep it that size and nobody is going to put up a sign that small or 20 feet of the ground. It would never happen. There was a case in Texas where he used to live and somebody prohibited signs and they lost the case and put up an incredible number of huge signs. Carol Lane, 14890 E Bluff Road, stated that she does appreciate the process you all are going through because this is where it does make a big difference. You all are setting up the guideline for the businesses. You do set a precedent if you do not settle it now in those guidelines, then you give a lot of leeway to businesses to interpret it however they want. One thing that she would say is to remember that we are the City of Milton and what most of you all talked about and the public talked about is keeping a rural character of the city. Granted there are neon signs. She is sure businesses would love to come to the City of Milton, a unique and attractive city, where it is different and they certainly worked on the Birmingham corners and it look very good. She does not think anyone would argue that. If you want it to look like every single other place there is, and if you were dropped out of the sky would you know you would be dropped into Milton. That is what you need to think about keeping this unique character and she thinks that is what the people have said. She appreciates the Council all going though this ordinance. As far as Highway 9 is concerned, when they made up those plans it was not like what it is now. It has changed as far as the commercial area of it. Please consider all comments heard when you all make up these overlays or whatever and to try to make it consistent. Just go drive down to other areas and then drive here and see how different it is. Community Development Director Wilson continued with page 30 of his document. Crabapple Crossing Overlay District Signs Signs shall not have changeable copy although theatre, schools, churches, parks and gas stations may have changeable copy that is changed by hand. They shall be externally eliminated in the light source shall be screened with shrubs (he supposes that means that they are lit by an up light) in consistence with the night ordinance. Councilmembers Zahner Bailey, Lusk and Thurman had concerns about the lights. Mayor Lockwood suggested some kind of standard with maybe a certain wattage bulb. Community Development Director Wilson suggested the verbiage to say “the light sources shall illuminate only the sign face and there should be no spillage”. Councilmember Lusk had an issue with the term “shrubs” not being specific enough. Community Development Director Wilson said they will work on that and it will be in the next draft. Signs made of wood - Appearance of carved, distressed, wood, or stone. Plastic inserts and letters are prohibited. Councilmember Thurman started the discussion on plastic products that look like wood, but last longer. Community Development Director Wilson suggested removing the verbiage “plastic inserts” and to add something like “must simulate wood or stone as approved by the Director of Community Development”. Five-Minute Break: Mayor Lockwood asked for a 5 minute break. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 8 of 12 Reconvene: Mayor Lockwood reconvened the Special Called Work Session. Community Development Director Wilson resumed the meeting with Item 2 of the Crabapple Crossing Overlay Nonresidential Multi-tenant Building Signs - Signs are 8 ft high 32 sq ft in size. Councilmember Thurman explained why the size is 8 ft when it is listed elsewhere at 6 ft. Community Development Director Wilson said it will be left at 8 ft 32 sq ft. Right-of-Way Frontage (same as in Highway 9) Nonresidential single tenant buildings, 6 ft high 20 sq ft.- Residential usage 6 ft high 16 sq ft. No change. Each Residential Development Shall Have the Maximum of Two Signs Councilmember Zahner Bailey and Mayor Lockwood had concerns. Community Development Director Wilson suggested the language to say “one sign per entrance”, therefore having a sign at each entrance. Councilmember Thurman said the problem with one sign per entrance is it limits the kind of sign you have and you may be only able to see it going in one direction. There was discussion about putting the sign on a monument versus free standing and double sided. Birmingham Crossroads Overlay District Signs Signs Should be Constructed of Wood, Brick or Stone Community Development Director Wilson suggested adding “subject to the approval of the Director of Community Development”. Externally Illuminated Community Development Director Wilson suggested the verbiage to say “the light sources shall illuminate only the sign face and there should be no spillage”. Councilmember Zahner Bailey asked if the light was down cast or up cast. She prefers down cast for consistency. Community Development Director Wilson will include the verbiage “light shall be directed downward”. Prohibited Sign Types The same except these now have monument signs are also prohibited. Councilmember Lusk stated that on Page 32 of the Crabapple Overlay, the last Article on that page is C and it refers to Table D1, then the next page has the Table D1 and it goes to Article E. He asked should there be an Article D in there. Community Development Director Wilson said they will add Article D before Table D1 so the Articles do not go from Article C to Article E. Councilmember Zahner Bailey stated that under the residential sign, she thought it was addressed in the Crabapple Overlay that the 16 sq ft, but she does not know if it is in the Birmingham Crossroads. Within that you could have on the south east corner mixed use that would incorporate both commercial office and residential. She thought that would Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 9 of 12 also apply within the Northwest Fulton Overlay so it is not only within the Crossroads districts it is also in the overlay itself. Community Development Director Wilson said he would add that to the Birmingham Crossroads Overlay. Councilmember Lusk stated that back on page 32 since the table falls under Article C and makes reference to Table D, perhaps it should be Table C-1 and the last article, “Prohibiting Signs”. Community Development Director Wilson said he would clean that up and make the change. PUBLIC COMMENT Kim Horne, 415 Wade Glen Ct., Alpharetta, GA 30004: Did not speak, but wanted her comments read into the record. Comment was regarding Sign Ordinance and comment was read by Community Development Director Wilson. Temporary Standard Information Signs Community Development Director Wilson said he has a comment from Citizen Kim Horne suggesting that the definition of temporary sign be changed to “temporary sign is of a non permanent nature, all such signs shall be removed within 10 days after the purpose for which the sign is intended to advertise has been accomplished”. Agreed. Prohibited Signs and Devices Section 17 Item B Streamers, banners, fringe twirling, a-frame, sandwich type, sidewalk or curbed type signs, balloons, streamers, portable display signs, air or gas filled figures and other similar temporary signs, except where permitted in Section 25: Restrictions Based On Location. Kim Horne wanted to know if temporary signs will require a permit. She would like the language to say “fringe, twirling, a-frame, sandwich type, sidewalk or curb type signs, balloon, streamers, portable display signs, air filled or gas filled figures and other similar temporary signs”. She would also like to eliminate signs admitting warning signals, signs displaying lights resembling the flashing light customarily used in traffic signals or police, fire, ambulance or rescue vehicles, signs using words, slogans, dimensional shape or size or colors of governmental traffic signs in such a manner as to be confused with official traffic signs. Also signs attached to trees, utility poles, otherwise attached to rocks or natural objects, any signs placed by local, state or any billboards directly painting on the walls or other architectural structures. After discussion led by Councilmember Zahner Bailey, and Community Development Director Wilson, added was “Signs attached to trees or utility poles or boxes, signs painted on other or otherwise attached to rocks or other natural objects, signs other than those placed by local, state or federal government or utility companies located within the public right of way (that is already eliminated) or within 5 feet of the curb”. Councilmember Zahner Bailey stated that in the Birmingham Overlay it was specific that is was supposed to be 10 ft from the right of way. She would like the verbiage to read what is currently lawful there now so that it is consistent. Community Development Director Wilson will have the verbiage checked for the Birmingham Master Plan. Councilmember O’Brien suggested changing the verbiage from “rocks or stones or other natural objects” to “rocks or stones or any natural objects”. Community Development Director Wilson suggested the verbiage to read “synthetic stones, rocks or any natural objects”. Maintenance of Signs – Section 19 on page 13 Community Development Director Wilson stated Citizen Kim Horne also suggested that a paragraph be added that says “Maintenance and Appearance of Signs – All signs shall be maintained in good condition and present a neat and orderly appearance. Any sign showing grouse neglect or which becomes dilapidated or which is surrounded by an unmaintained ground area be required to be repaired or removed as set forth below. The director upon finding any of the about conditions will give the owner 10 days written notice to correct the deficiency or to remove the sign or signs. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 10 of 12 If the owner refuses to correct the deficiency or remove the sign the director may issue a citation under the enforcement provision of this chapter”. Community Development Director Wilson said he was good with that suggestion and did not see anything unreasonable about it. He will add the verbiage. Section 2 Purpose and Findings A 6 Councilmember Zahner Bailey said she felt the work “contemporary” seemed to be contract with the others. Community Development Director Wilson asked if Councilmember Zahner Bailey wanted the verbiage to say “context sensitive”. Councilmember Zahner Bailey said she felt that is more specific because some of the areas are historic. Community Development Director Wilson suggested adding at the end of the sentence “that further the vision of values of the community”. Section 3 Definitions – Kiosk vs. Sign Kiosk Councilmember Zahner Bailey questioned if the verbiage was specific enough to define Kiosk and to address signs with more than 2 faces. This discussion led to discussion on size and angles. Community Development Director Wilson said he could put verbiage in regarding the sign be 60 degrees. He will also add verbiage of “Parallel planes at 16 sq ft x 16 sq ft. When those planes become not parallel, then it stays at an angle of 60 degrees and that becomes two signs and not a single sign”. After much discussion, it was agreed to disagree on this – no consensus. Section 16 Signs Which Require No Permit - Flags Councilmember Zahner Bailey questioned the distinction of the words lot vs. development. Community Development Director Wilson suggested the verbiage should be changed from “permitted in all districts” to specific districts. Residential districts would be by lot and every other district it would be by development. Councilmember Zahner Bailey suggested a master plan for signage within a particular development. Community Development Director Wilson suggested it be put in the Zoning Ordinance as a requirement for the information that is presented to council for resource and development and review it at rezoning time. If you want to make any changes to it, you can do that as a condition of zoning. Councilmember Zahner Bailey had an issue about the mixed use for signs verbiage and asked if we could capture verbiage to specifically address this issue. Community Development Director Wilson said he insists that all out parcels be illustrated at the time of rezoning and we do not create out parcels after rezoning. This information can be captured under rezoning. Councilmember Zahner Bailey questioned the cut off times of externally lit signs. Community Development Director Wilson said we can certainly write that in the ordinance, it is doable and enforceable. Suggested verbiage to say “whatever illumination you have between dark and 10:00 pm must be reduced by 50% after 10:00 pm or 30 minutes after closing”. He will look into the cost of having the signs be able to do this is. Councilmember Zahner Bailey had a question regarding color of directional signs. She suggests the signs be all similar in color. Community Development Director Wilson said the color is restricted by the Overlay District Color Standards for signs. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 11 of 12 Mayor Lockwood asked to have it checked to see what is typical and what avenues are available if we want to regulate those. He would like to have this monitored. He suggested with all due respect for Councilmember Zahner Bailey and anyone else here, that Tom Wilson would be happy to sit with them and discuss any issues. He suggested sending an email or making a list to mail out to people because people may need to leave now. City Manager Bovos said that maybe Councilmember Zahner Bailey could run through the issues she has so Community Development Director Wilson can hear what she has left versus discussing them and he can get back with everybody at the same time. Community Development Director Wilson said as another option, he would make another draft and highlight all the changes discussed tonight and add Councilmember Zahner Bailey’s comments in there in a different color so that we could see what was added and not discussed. This same draft will go to the Planning Commission in March. He will note all the changes on the draft that comes to staff and Council in April. Councilmember Zahner Bailey said she is not discussing anything. She has been through them and she is just reading her list. PUBLIC COMMENT Brian Snelling 14l50 S. Johnson Ferry Road, Atlanta, GA 30319 stated that there were some definition problems he had. A monument sign is a sign as a free standing sign, but then free standings are prohibited. He has an issue with that because they have a sign up on their site and it is just kind of coincidental that they have been kicked in and damaged and their zoning signs have disappeared. He wants to know how you enforce that. Does someone get notified if you go by their sign and the property sign has been kicked in or damaged? He is working on replacing it, but is just curious how that affects it. Community Development Director Wilson said he would give them a notice and he needs to reply within three days or seek additional time. Brian Snelling said the same thing with their stickers. The stickers can be taken off. He is just here to listen to what the Council comments were. This is a big issue for tenants and it determines whether or not they go into certain communities because they spend millions of dollars branding. If they feel like a sign is going to impact their business, they are not going to open a business in your community. He cannot stand there and say that some have said that and some have not, but it is something that he has to provide an update to his bosses and potential tenants. He would like for you to keep that in mind as well, as you are going through your thoughts and processes. You are going to get residents who object to everything, but you are also going to get businesses who object to certain things and they would love to have their signage displayed. One tenant talked about yesterday that they look at this as their community also and they are planning on opening a business here and being here for 20 plus years. Especially larger national tenants; they are signing 20, 30, 40 and 50 year leases; They own property or either they are purchasing property so they plan on being a part of your community. They want to blend in and meet the sign ordinances, but they also do not want to feel like they are being shut out, for a lack of a better term. Community Development Director Wilson said Section 6 does say “not withstanding the foregoing signs which are not visible from public right of way on vagrant properties shall not be subject to the standards of this article. Brian Snelling said one thing he forgot to ask, he never did get the note on what you decided about variances because that is mostly the main reason he was here to figure out the limit on the variances. He asked is it still 1½ or are you all going to change it to 2 or eliminate. He never did get a clear answer on what that was. Mayor Lockwood said it is now 1½; it has not changed. Community Development Director Wilson said he would put in a recommendation to the Planning Commission what staff recommends this document to be. They can change it, come to you, you can change it. Special Called Work Session of the Milton City Council Thursday, February 21, 2007, 5:30 PM Page 12 of 12 After no further business, the meeting adjourned the Work Session at 9:29 PM. Date Approved: May 3, 2007 _______ Jeanette R. Marchiafava, City Clerk Joe Lockwood, Mayor