HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes CC - 02/13/2012 - Mins 02 13 12 WS (Migrated from Optiview)Work Session of the Milton City Council
Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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This summary is provided as a convenience and service to the public, media, and staff. It is not the
intent to transcribe proceedings verbatim. Any reproduction of this summary must include this notice.
Public comments are noted and heard by Council, but not quoted. This document includes limited
presentation by Council and invited speakers in summary form. This is an official record of the Milton
City Council Meeting proceedings. Official Meetings are audio recorded.
The Work Session of the Mayor and Council of the City of Milton was held on February 13, 2012
at 6:10 PM, Mayor Lockwood presiding.
Council Members Present: Councilmember Karen Thurman, Councilmember Kunz, Councilmember
Bill Lusk, Councilmember Burt Hewitt, Councilmember Joe Longoria and Councilmember Large.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Work Sessions are an informal setting to update Council on business items.
• No votes will be taken during these sessions.
• There are four (4) items on our Agenda tonight.
• Public comment is allowed that is germane to an Agenda Item.
• If you wish to speak you are required to fill out a comment card and turn it into the City Clerk
staff.
• Public comment will be allowed for a total of 10 minutes per agenda item and no more than 2
minutes per person.
• Public comment will be heard at the beginning of each Item.
• Once the item is called, no other comment cards will be accepted.
City Clerk Gordon read Agenda Item #1.
1. Discussion of North Fulton County Voter Registration Initiative in the City of Milton.
(Presented by Sam Westmoreland, Esq., Interim Director, Fulton County Department of
Registration and Elections (DRE); William Riley, Esq., DRE Board Member & Julia Beatrice
"JB" Reed, Esq., DRE Voter Education Specialist)
Julia Beatrice Reed, Voter Education Specialist:
• Thank you for the opportunity to be here tonight.
• I apologize that Sam Westmoreland, Interim Director, and Bill Riley, Board Member could not
be here tonight.
• I would like to thank Mayor Lockwood, Chris Lagerbloom, Sudie Gordon, and Christine Doss
for how supportive they have been.
• The Department of Registration and Elections has been greeted with open arms by the City of
Milton as well as the other five cities in North Fulton County and it has been a pleasure working
with all of you.
• The Department of Registration and Elections is primarily known for its work with regards to the
registration of voters throughout Fulton County and conducting elections.
• However, another important component of what we do is voter education and outreach.
• One of the things we know is that voter education plus voter registration is going to equal to
voter participation.
Work Session of the Milton City Council
Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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• I wanted to share with you an excerpt from Secretary Kemp's website. He states, "As
Americans, there is no right more precious than the constitutional right to elect our leaders. Yet
many of eligible Georgia citizens are not even registered to vote."
• Citizens and organizations throughout Georgia, especially in the metro Atlanta area, were
responsible for a lot of the grassroots work, as well as, the national effort to pass the 1965 Voting
Rights Amendment and all of the laws that came after that.
• Yet, last year, Newsweek magazine did a study of the last thirty years of voter registration and
participation rates in the fifty states.
• I regret to inform you that the state of Georgia ranked number fifty. We were at the bottom.
• Unfortunately, this was supported by the fact that during the November election, only 16.1 % of
the voters in Fulton county actually voted.
• In this most recent election, there was a state representative who won where only 367 votes were
cast.
• It is really sad what is happening in our state regarding voter registration and participation. I will
let the data speak for itself.
• I wanted to share with you some data that our department developed.
• The first column indicates that there are six counties that make up North Fulton County:
Alpharetta, Johns Creek, Milton, Mountain Park, Roswell, and Sandy Springs.
• The next column is the population count based on the 2010 census data.
• The next column is our adjusted population which is based on the census data that 25.7% of our
population in Georgia is under the age of 18 which means they are not of voting age.
• The next column shows the data that we have as of November 1, 2011, indicating Active
Registered Voters.
• Our department also keeps track of Inactive Registered Voters which is located in the next
column.
• These are voters who are registered but who have not voted in the last two national elections.
This means they have not voted in the last six to eight years.
• They are still on the role, however, if they do not vote in this upcoming presidential election then
they will be dropped.
• The final column is our Estimate of Eligible Voters. This number is derived from the adjusted
population minus active voters plus inactive voters.
• In Fulton County, there were 67,959 eligible citizens who had not registered to vote. 40,397 of
those estimated eligible voters reside in North Fulton cities. That is 59.1% of all estimated
eligible voters are in North Fulton County. I will remind you that 36.4% of Fulton County
residents live in North Fulton County. That is an incredible amount of people who are not
registered to vote who live in the North Fulton area that we need to get registered. Another
33,283 people are inactive registered voters in North Fulton County. There are a total of 73,680
eligible voters out there. Our goal is to get them registered.
• My goal is to get 75% of these voters registered and actively participating in the upcoming
elections.
• How important is this? Last year, during the November elections, only 16.1% of people all over
Fulton County actually voted.
• As I mentioned earlier, North Fulton County has 36.4% of the Fulton county population. If half
of these people had voted, all of the decisions on issues would have gone in your favor.
Work Session of the Milton City Council
Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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• Therefore, there is a tremendous amount of electoral power that is not being tapped in North
Fulton County. We need to tap into that for your cities, for the county at large, and the state.
That is why we are here today.
• This is a presidential election year. We have a tremendous opportunity to increase the number of
people who are registered to vote and who actually vote.
• Of course the election that everyone is excited about is the presidential election in November.
However, the date that I get excited about is the voter registration deadline which is October 8,
2012.
• In July, we will have the presidential primary. Again, that election will happen on July 31, 2012,
but my target date is July 2, 2012, which is the voter registration deadline. So, I will go ahead
and point out that the upcoming election March 6, 2012, the voter registration deadline was
February 6, 2012.
• We have approached the North Fulton Municipal Association which is the group of six mayors
who meet. They have been incredibly supportive of our initiative.
• I would like to take this opportunity to thank you, as council members, for passing the resolution
last month that acknowledged that you support this initiative as well.
• We basically divided the initiative into three parts.
• The first part focuses on voter education. Mr. Westmoreland, our Director, and former Judge
Riley, one of our board members, and myself have been meeting with the various city councils,
community organizations, and individuals to talk about this issue and share the information that I
have just shared with you.
• The second phase of this movement will be March 7, 2012 until July 2, 2012 deadline and the
focus will be on actual voter registration.
• One of the things we are doing is meeting with all of the city administrators and representatives
and building a calendar of events for registration activities.
• One of the appeals I would like to make to each of the city councils and to the mayors is the
importance of your involvement.
• We have encountered quite a bit of challenges in terms of finding locations for registration
drives.
• Local businesses and some of the larger businesses have not been as receptive as we would have
liked so we need your influence and assistance.
• A number of our churches are also nervous about holding voter registration drives, even though
it is a non-partisan issue, because of concerns it will affect their 501(c3) status. In fact, that is
not the case because this is a non-partisan effort. It is an educational effort. It is just an effort to
sign-up people to register.
• There is no attempt during our registration drives to influence or encourage people to vote one
way or another.
• The last group we really need to reach is the community. This is an issue that we need to
impress upon our citizens.
• Again, in each of those three areas we are looking for your assistance to help us with that.
• I want to acknowledge that Sudie Gordon and Christine Doss have been great in working with us
and pulling together your calendars and trying to come up with some activities where we can
hold these registration drives. However, we really need the assistance of both the faith and the
business community as well.
• With that being said, the North Fulton voter education, registration, and participation initiative
basically is built around three "P's".
Work Session of the Milton City Council
Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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• The first "P" has to do with people. On January 11, 2012, and for some counties since that time,
we have held training for city employees to be Deputy Registrars as part of the voter's education
and outreach program.
• There were seven city employees, including Sudie Gordon and Chris Lagerbloom, who attended
our launch at the Greater North Fulton Chamber of Commerce on January 11, 2012. It was a
tremendous outpouring. We had about 100 people who were trained that day to be Deputy
Registrars who went back to their cities and are now directing registration drives at the heavily
trafficked areas for customer service.
• The second "P" is places. We are looking for a diversity of local venues for voter registration
drives and educational programs, as well as, region -wide venues.
• The final "P" is promotion of voter registration, education, and participation.
• One of the things I was really excited about is that the local newspaper printed your passage of
the resolution on the top half of the front page. That was great news and that is the kind of
publicity we are looking for so, again, we thank the media for their support.
• Before I leave, there is one little myth I would like to dispel. It came up in that article and it
comes up almost every time we do a presentation. A lot of people say that they will not register
to vote because they will get called for jury duty. Our response is, "Do you have a drivers
license?" and they will say, "yes" and what we will tell them is that you are three times more
likely to get called for jury duty because you have a drivers license than if you have a voter
registration card.
• Again, please help us dispel this myth because we need people to register to vote and exercise
their civic duty.
• If you have any questions, I will be more than happy to try to address them.
• Thank you very much and I want to encourage you to check your mailboxes in the next two to
three weeks, there will be something special and we hope you will say "yes".
City Clerk Gordon read Agenda Item #2.
2. Discussion of ARC Green Communities Certification.
(Presented by Michele McIntosh -Ross, City Planner and Cindy Eade, Sustainability Coordinator)
Kathleen Field, Community Development Director:
• Good evening Mr. Mayor and members of the council.
• I just wanted to give you a little background. Approximately a year and a half ago, staff from
Community Development came before you to describe the ARC Green Communities program.
• They asked you at that time if you wanted them to proceed with an application leading to
certification of Milton as a green community.
• At that time, you gave them the green light and told them to proceed.
• Michele McIntosh -Ross, City Planner, and Cindy Eade, Sustainability Coordinator, are here to
give you an update and describe, first, the program for the new council members and to refresh
the rest of you and, then, to give you a status report in terms of where they are and where they
hope to go by May 25, 2012, which is this year's application deadline for the Green
Communities program.
• So with that being said, Michele and Cindy.
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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Michele McIntosh -Ross, City Planner:
• Good Evening, I am Michele McIntosh -Ross with Community Development
• I came in front of you in July 2010 to talk about the Green Community program.
• I am going to do an overview for those of you who need to be refreshed as well as inform the
new council members about the program.
• We are going to talk about the progress to date as well as the work we have been doing.
• We also want to talk about your involvement as a council in this initiative.
• The Atlanta Regional Commission (ARC) launched this Green Communities Program back in
2008 and their goal is to promote and encourage local governments to consider sustainability in
their decisions, policies, and plans.
• They hope to promote environmentally sustainable policies throughout the region.
• It is intended to reduce the region's impact on the environment.
• This program is a voluntary program and it recognizes governments that are taking steps to
reduce the overall impact on the environment.
• Some of the benefits of being an ARC Green Community are that it fosters civic pride; it
provides a positive image of a place to live and conduct business and it sets an example for
businesses, residences, and organizations seeking to reduce the environmental impact.
• It also gives the city some accountability to ask businesses and residents to be more efficient and
more sustainable in their own lives and businesses.
• It also leads to a greater quality of life.
Cindy Eade, Sustainability Coordinator:
• Good Evening Mayor and Council.
• I am Cindy Eade, Sustainability Coordinator.
• I am very happy the city decided a year and a half ago to work on being a green community.
• I think we have so many wonderful things to offer in Milton.
• I think it will be great for the region and all the cities in North Fulton to be on board.
• There are different cities that are members of the green community certification.
• As you can see on the presentation, Alpharetta has received the gold certification. That is the
highest level.
• Roswell is in the silver category.
• Sandy Springs and Johns Creek are not in there yet so I think we are going to beat them to the
punch there.
• So there are three gold cities, four silver cities, and nine combinations of counties and cities that
have applied since 2008 and received that certification.
• The way the certification works is that the ARC gives us 65 different measures that we can apply
for. They are all in this green certification book and they are more specific than what we are
going to get into tonight.
• This is available if anyone is interested in seeing the level of detail that is involved in each of
these measures.
• The measures account for five to ten points per area.
• When you see that the lowest level is 175 points for bronze, you need a lot of different measures
to add up to that 175.
• Michele made a great start in getting us to a level of 85 already.
• She has documentation on all of that.
• However, we are going to need at least another 90 points to get to the bronze level.
Work Session of the Milton City Council
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Michele McIntosh -Ross:
• I am going to just go through what we have done so far already, just some examples.
• For those who were here, you can recall that back in 2010 you gave the go ahead on pursuing the
green communities.
• We have been able to count 85 points.
• We went to ARC in January and we showed them what we had so far. They signed off on 85
points that we definitely have.
• We need at least 175 points to get to the bronze level.
• We already have, for example, #15 which is an ordinance to operate outdoor lighting more
efficiently. That is the night sky ordinance. So that counts for 5 points.
• We were informed that we get the next three because that is through the Fulton county water
district.
• So we got 15 additional points that we did not know we had.
• Then, as you can see, we are a Tree USA city so we have another 5 points there.
• We also implemented a recycling program for traditional recycling materials.
• Those are some examples of some of the points that we know that we definitely have.
• We have some other points that we are pretty sure that we will get by May.
• That is why we are confident this year that we will be able to turn in an application to get at least
a bronze.
Cindy Eade:
• We have handouts for anyone that would like a list of all the things we have achieved and all the
things we are working on.
• Just to give you an idea of a couple of things we are working on as they relate to 115 points.
• We are going to be conducting energy and water audits at all three fire stations and we have
talked to Chief Edgar about that.
• He is totally in favor of doing that. He has already implemented some energy efficient moves in
the fire stations.
• These are going to be done by the energy providers Sawnee and Cobb Energy EMC.
• They are going to come in and take a look at what we have and make suggestions.
• ARC isn't interested in the city spending a lot of money to get to this level.
• They would like us to implement low or no cost options.
• We are going to see what we have and see if there are things we can do that will make a
difference that won't cost us a lot of money.
• The same thing with the water area as well.
• We are going to install rainwater systems which are going to be a simple rain barrel at each of
the fire stations.
• You might say, "Gee, what do they need that for?" that landscaping is all in good shape and
mature so it may not need a lot of water.
• We are thinking about implementing an "Adopt a Station" type of concept that will be similar to
our "Adopt a Road" where community groups will adopt a fire station and take care of planting
seasonal flowers to beautify the station and beautify the community on a yearly basis at their
cost.
• They will be able to use the rain barrels to do that watering for those plants.
• We have instituted an "Adopt a Commute" option program with the Clean Air Campaign.
• I have a poster over here of one of the things that they have come back with.
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• By giving them a list of our employees, only by number, not by name, and their home address
we are able to really map where everybody lives. We are then able to see if there are some
opportunities for people to ride share that work together whether it is once a week or several
times a week to help defray the cost of gasoline and leaving a carbon imprint.
• We are working closely with them. There are a lot of things to consider because of the safety
people needing their vehicles or in some cases, leaving their vehicles in other places and driving
in. It might be a challenge, but we are taking a look at that and trying to come up with a way for
us to be able to use that Clean Air Commute.
• We would like council to consider doing something similar to what Alpharetta has done.
• They have an ordinance considered a Green Ordinance and a lot of cities have done this type of
thing.
• They are rolling in all the components of their environmental sustainability into one document so
that they don't have to make separate documents. For example, a purchasing policy and green
building standards can be put in one document.
• We included that Alpharetta one as a sample. We have other samples if you would like to see
those some other time.
• Michele and I will work on trying to word that so it pertains exactly to the initiatives that we are
going to be working on.
• Alpharetta has achieved the gold level so they have a lot of things on here that we are not
actually going to be doing. That is just to give you a sample.
• Our green community submission date is May 25th.
• The nice thing is that we can continue to work on the initiatives after May 25th up until the end of
October.
• We don't have to have it all done now but they have to see that we have work in progress and we
are moving in the right direction.
• The awards are usually presented during the 4th quarter so around December 2012.
• We hope that we will be receiving the bronze very soon. We have already done a lot of work
and we hope that you will continue to support what we are doing. If we need help with the
ordinance we will be coming back to you.
• Our schedule is to present it to the Planning Commission at the end of February, discuss it at a
work session with the Planning Commission during the regular meeting in April, put it on the
council agenda in early May, and then have a meeting in late May.
• We are on a tight schedule to get the green ordinance completed in order to submit it by May
250h. We know we can do it.
• Are there any questions or would anyone like to have a handout of the measures that we have
already accomplished or are planning to accomplish? They are available if you need them.
Councilmember Lusk:
• I have a question in regard to Alpharetta and Roswell since they have gold and silver.
• Do we have access to their score sheet to see specifically what they have done?
Cindy Eade:
• We do, I actually have it here if you would like to see it.
• It is not a detailed score sheet but it does show all the different measures they were awarded to
receive the gold and silver level.
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• Both of those cities decided that they wanted to have the green building standards in their
ordinances. They have made the commitment to build any new buildings to the LED standards or
the ENERGY STAR standards.
• You do get a lot of points in those building areas.
• That really helped Roswell get the silver because they were able to capture a lot of points in the
building area.
• We are taking a look at those kinds of sustainable measures in our new Public Safety building
but we haven't made the decision that we want to spend the money necessary to get that LED
certification.
• Carter Lucas is definitely looking at it with the designers.
Councilmember Hewitt:
• Is this something that if we go in at bronze can we continue to step up the ladder? Is that how
some of the other communities try to do it?
Cindy Eade:
• Yes, absolutely
• I'm not sure if the other communities started at a lower level since this is a new program.
• They may have jumped right in to what they are now, but you definitely have the opportunity to
move up the ladder and go to silver or gold down the road.
Michele McIntosh -Ross:
• The same way that every year you can move up, you can also move down.
• Atlanta was at a higher level in previous years and they moved down to bronze because
sometimes people do not keep up with some of the initiatives.
• You have to be mindful of that.
Councilmember Large:
• With new facilities, instead of actually getting a certification but incorporating LED and green
principles into new construction, you don't go through the commissioning and certification. Do
you still get credit?
Cindy Eade:
• Well, unfortunately, no you don't.
• It is something that they might consider changing, but we can definitely get a lot our own press
out of that kind of thing to show the community what we have done.
• It doesn't look like we will be able to get any points from ARC on that.
• It would have to be one of the standards.
• It is either LED, EarthCraft, Energy Star, Commercial, one of those.
Councilmember Kunz:
• I have a question. A little bit more about ARC itself.
• How are they promoting these cities from the standpoint of their own marketing?
• How do other people who may be wanting to move residences know about this program?
Cindy Eade:
9 That is a good question.
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• I don't know exactly how to answer that.
• Michele may be a little more familiar with that.
Michele McIntosh -Ross:
• Are you wondering how they promote it?
• Well, they send letters out to cities every year letting them know that the applications are due.
• They also offer classes that staff can attend to see how they can implement these measures.
• They put it in their leaflets for any type of classes they have.
• They always mention this all over their website as well.
• I'm not sure what else they do as far as residents, but for local governments, they promote it at
meetings. There is someone who gives an update on green communities.
Councilmember Kunz:
• But they don't do anything in the AJC or promotions in magazines as far as announcing the
cities?
Michele McIntosh -Ross:
• I think I have seen it in the paper sometimes like when Alpharetta got gold, it was in the paper.
Councilmember Large:
• Has GMA become involved with this?
• Would they promote that type of thing and also maybe the chamber?
Michele McIntosh -Ross:
• Well, I'm not sure how much the GMA is involved. I just don't know.
• Each city promotes it, once they become some sort of level, on their website and they really
boast about it.
• I have had some of our North Fulton neighbors let me know that they are on the list.
Councilmember Large:
• That would probably be a good thing if GMA were to get on board if they could have a
periodical publication they come out with.
Councilmember Kunz:
• I know ARC gives the guidelines, but I would love to say to them, "Hey, we got to that level,
now what are you doing to show that our efforts are paying off by telling other people about
what we have done."
• Could you please ask the question to them at some point?
Michele McIntosh -Ross:
• Yes, I will check and see exactly to what extent they promote.
• I know that their goal is for the entire ARC region to be a green region. I don't know where they
are in terms of accomplishing this.
• I don't know if they are pushing to be the first regional agency to do that. I don't know, but they
are really offering a lot of help to get all of their local governments in the jurisdiction to be
green.
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Mayor Lockwood:
• Thank you Michele, thank you Cindy. Everyone's comments were good. This is something we
need to make sure gets publicized.
City Clerk Gordon read Agenda Item #3.
3. Discussion of RZ12-01 — To Amend Article VI, Division 2 — AG -1 (Agricultural
District) as it Relates to Allowing Structures Housing Animals within the Front Yard and
Fencing Along Public -right-of-ways.
(Presented by Kathleen Field, Community Development Director)
Mimi R. Sullivan, 2090 Bethany Way, Alpharetta, GA
• Hi, my name is Mimi Sullivan and I live on Bethany Way.
• I have lived in this area for 16 years and own a personal horse farm.
• I have been participating in the Milton Horse Council for the last year or so.
• First of all, I would like to say that we are absolutely delighted that Milton has decided to look at
the regulations that are on the books and consider opening up the land use to having barns and
riding rings in front of homes.
• I know a lot of people who live here who have bought large tracts of land (10, 20, 50 acre
properties) and the house may have already been built on the back side of the property years ago.
Perhaps because it was the tallest part of the land or maybe it was wooded. Or just because of
the topography of the land maybe the flatter areas or the cleared areas happened to be in the front
part of the property.
• As people have moved in and wanted to create some really nice horse farms with some real
quality horses and good trainers and upstanding facility, their problem has been that they don't
have enough land behind the house to be able to build a barn or riding ring.
• We have heard that complaint from several people and they have chosen not to purchase land or
not to move a facility here because the house was already located at the back of the property.
• We just love the fact that you are looking at this and considering being able to put barns and
riding rings in front of homes.
• We have 11 acres and we built our house on a hill because it is the highest point.
• We have a ravine in front and then very flat areas, so we built our house in the back part up on a
hill.
• When considering where to put a ring, most rings are put on the flat area of a piece of property.
A lot of times the flat area is in front of the house.
• We struggled to be able to keep it behind that front plain of the house and, fortunately, we were
able to do it.
• I think it has been a problem for other people so I am just delighted that you are looking at this.
• I was looking at the table you have provided and I want to say that I support the staff
recommendation for the covered riding areas and the lit riding areas, whether it is covered or
uncovered, being considered on a case-by-case basis.
• I think it is very hard to come in "carte blanc" and say anyone can build a ring in front of a
house.
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• I think you have to be realistic and look at how much property are we talking about.
• What are the setbacks?
• How will it impact the neighbors and surrounding communities?
• I think it is good to consider all of that and I am glad that they have.
• I guess one of my concerns is when you say that you allow it with a use permit. What would be
the criteria for a use permit?
• Somewhere, I am guessing that you are going to establish what those criteria are.
• I would be very interested in looking at what are the different kinds of "hoops" so to speak, that
people would have to jump through to be able to be eligible for a use permit.
• One of my other questions is that in this document you stated, "domesticated animals." Is there a
definition somewhere of what a domesticated animal is?
• I know a horse, dog, and cat are domesticated animals. What other animals would be considered
a domesticated animal? Does Milton have a list of what animals are considered to be a
domesticated animal?
• That was all of my concerns. I am just very thankful and appreciative that you are willing to
look at this. I am delighted that you are considering covered arenas and I think it is appropriate
to consider them on a case-by-case basis. Covered arenas usually have a little larger crowd,
lighting, and a need for more parking. I think it is a good idea to look at where that would be
appropriate.
• Thank you so much.
Laura Bentley, 2500 Bethany Church Road, Milton, GA:
• Hi, I am Laura Bentley. 2500 Bethany Church Road.
• In November of 2010, Jack Flowers and I introduced to you the Milton Horse Council.
• This is a group of equestrians, trainers, large operations, and small operations here in the city of
Milton. We have come together to try to organize ourselves as stakeholders within the city.
• At our first meeting, we identified several goals which are: to influence land use within our city,
to preserve and promote equestrian operations, and provide feedback to the city council and staff
on how to better accommodate equestrian operations.
• During our second meeting in which Chris Lagerbloom attended, one of the main things we
talked about was the inability for barns to be located in front of homes.
• This is a huge deterrent to flipping over properties that are very attractive for equestrian use.
• A lot of people come in and look at the property then determine that they might not want to take
that risk with the city.
• We are very happy to see this come forward tonight for your consideration.
• We hope that you will consider putting barns in front of dwellings.
• I know the Planning Commission worked very hard on the wording. We appreciate their hard
work and their willingness to take our input and try to improve this.
• I think it is a really simple thing that we can do to try to make many properties within our city
remain equestrian oriented.
• Thank you.
George Ragsdale, 540 Treyburn View, Milton, GA:
• George Ragsdale, 540 Treyburn View, Milton
• I've got several comments and, first of all, for those of you who are not new to the council a lot
of this is going to be repetitious and for those of you who are it is going to be new.
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• The first comment really has to do with the process.
• What you have in front of you tonight is several pieces of information that I will try to relate to
as best I can.
• One of them is a recommendation that is titled, "Planning Commission's Recommendations with
City Attorney's Comments."
• One of them is titled, "Staff Recommendations with City Attorney's Comments."
• The third document is the chart that was just referenced a few minutes ago.
• Prior to tonight, nobody in the Planning Commission has ever seen this document.
• As a matter of fact, if Paul Moore had not forwarded it to me, I would not have seen it before
tonight either.
• This is a summary of the three states that you are being asked to consider: Current Zoning, The
Planning Commission's Recommendations, and the Staff Recommendations.
• In my opinion, this is somewhat misleading.
• It doesn't talk about the process that is required in each case.
• We believe that our recommendation from the Planning Commission is consistent with what is
best for Milton with respect to animal barns.
• We think that having horse barns in the front of property is a good idea provided that the
property is sized properly to do that.
• One of the differences you will see is that in the Staff Recommendation there is no minimum
acreage for that.
• In ours it is a 10 acre minimum which is what is there now.
• We have spent a lot of time trying to distinguish between what we call a riding arena and a riding
area.
• A riding area is much more compatible than having a riding arena.
• A riding arena implies a big structure with possible lighting and bleachers.
• We tried to distinguish those. We don't think that it is appropriate to have lighted, seated,
arenas, covered arenas or otherwise, in front of properties, again, with the possibility of a case-
by-case basis.
• Nothing that we recommended precludes any of that; it just proposes a different process for
getting approval.
• It relaxes the process to go to staff recommendation so that it becomes less visible of what those
changes are.
• That is really the primary change between the two.
• My concern is that this started back in January. We reviewed it in January and made a
recommendation.
• On January 27, 2012, there was a letter sent to the council for your meeting on February 6, 2012.
It included two versions of the proposed ordinance: staff recommendation and Planning
Commission recommendation.
• We had never seen either of those before they were sent out on January 27, 2012.
• We have never seen the final text of the ordinance that we voted on when we met back in
{
January.
• The other thing I would point out is that the ordinance that was sent out to you on January 27,
2012, in both cases, had comments from the city attorney. We had not seen these before and
therefore, did not have an opportunity to understand.
• The versions that are in front of you tonight are not the same versions that were sent out on
January 27, 2012.
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• They have different comments from the city attorney than what was sent out in January.
• If the process that we have established is going to work, we have to try and use it.
• We feel, as we have many times in the past, that our value is being diminished if not eliminated,
by having these things go through us as a Planning Commission, making a recommendation, and
then having what comes before you be materially altered from what we had proposed.
• Certainly, if there is an alternative recommendation by all means you should consider that.
• But we would at least like the respect to say that what is put in front of you is our
recommendation and something that we have seen, voted on, and passed.
Kathleen Field, Community Development Director:
• We have two modifications to the ordinance. I have identified them as issue one and issue two.
• I would like to put them both out for discussion and then go back and discuss each issue in detail.
• The first issue is the proposal to modify the allowable location of barns and covered riding areas
in the AG -1 districts and the properties being used primarily for either residential or non-
residential purposes.
• We define non-residential as not having a house on the property.
• Residential is defined as the house being the main use.
• If you would like to think of non-residential as being a commercial type farm, then that is pretty
close to the non-residential definition.
• Currently, our ordinance states that the minimum for non-residential is 10 acres. It has to be at
least 10 acres. It doesn't address property that is less than 10 acres.
• The discussion is that in parcels that are used primarily for residential use, barns and covered
riding areas must be placed behind the primary residential structure.
• Parcels that are used primarily for non-residential purposes with a minimum of 10 acres do not
have any restriction aside from standard setback requirements as to location of these structures.
• We feel that the current ordinance really perceives us to be non -equestrian friendly and this is an
attempt to resolve that issue.
• The second issue we would like to talk about tonight relates to fencing.
• The proposal is to require the equestrian style three or four board fence along the public right-of-
way within the AG -1 district.
• Currently, the way the zoning is written only non-residential and commercial properties within
the northwest zoning overlay district. This district pretty much covers all of our AGA.
• Only the non-residential commercial properties are mandated to have the three or four board
fences.
• Residential uses are not included.
• In order to enhance the equestrian look and ambiance, it is proposed that this requirement is
extended to all properties, regardless of use, that are zoned AG -1.
• Without this proposed change, opaque fences or walls are allowed in the AG -1 district.
• This is an attempt to minimize those requests for opaque fences or walls and really bring all
properties along public right-of-ways into conformance with the equestrian style fence.
• Back to issue one, in terms of the barns. I provided you with a breakdown of a chart because it
gets a little complicated.
• The current zoning regulations in terms of residential use allows barns, housing, and
domesticated animals.
• They are allowed in the rear or side yards with minimum setback rear and side yard
requirements.
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• In terms of riding areas uncovered, they are allowed anywhere, rear, front, and side yards.
• In terms of covered, based on the size of the parcel, the structure cannot exceed 25,000 square
feet and are only allowed in the rear or side yard.
• That is our current regulation for residential.
• For non-residential use it is a minimum of 10 acres. Barns for domesticated animals are allowed
in front, rear, and side yards.
• Riding areas, uncovered, are allowed in front, rear, and side yards.
• Covered areas are also allowed in front, rear, and side yards over 10 acres.
• This issue was brought to the Planning Commission and they submitted the following
recommendations for this.
• For all parcels, with or without a single-family residential use as a primary use, they are allowed
in the front yard, barns and structures, but only for horses; no other domesticated animals. They
also allow uncovered riding areas in the front yard.
• They recommend the following uses to be prohibited in the front yard: uncovered riding areas
with lights and/or bleachers, and all covered riding areas with or without lights and/or bleachers.
• The staff reviewed this and felt that they wanted to issue their own set of recommendations to
deal with some of these issues.
• We recommended that for parcels with or without, again, no minimum acreage for the non-
residential, that the following be allowed: in the front yard, barns and structures, housing,
domesticated animals, and uncovered riding areas. However, if someone wanted to put a
structure in the front, rear, or side yard through a use permit, which is done on a case-by-case
basis, we would allow the following uses: covered riding areas, lighted riding areas, whether
they are covered or uncovered, and designated seating structures for viewing, whether covered or
uncovered.
• We felt that the increased intensity of uses allowed by the use permit would be a good balance.
• These types of requests could be allowed if the conditions were appropriate rather than having an
outright prohibition.
• The chart is broken down by each recommendation and the current regulations by what is
allowed.
• Those are the recommendations put forward.
• As you know, the policy that we follow, our city attorney reviews both the Planning Commission
recommendations and the staff recommendations to make sure they are in conformance with any
legal issues.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Does anyone have any questions?
Councilmember Hewitt:
• In regard to barns in the front, with the staff recommendation of basically all domesticated
animals, couldn't somebody use that and have a dog kennel in the front yard?
Paul Frickey, City Attorney:
• As it is written, I would say that is probably an argument looking at the definition of
domesticated animals. It would appear to be covered under that definition as it is set in the code
right now. That specific term can be modified, limited or expanded, as large or as small as the
council wishes.
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Councilmember Hewitt:
• To me, that would be something that would be unattractive to have in your front yard.
• I can certainly see the difference between horses and livestock versus that.
Mayor Lockwood:
• I can certainly see why the Planning Commission recommended horses only, although there is
other livestock in an agricultural area. Are we singling out one type of animal and being
prejudice toward other type of livestock? Paul, is there any problem with that?
City Attorney Frickey:
• There is no equal protection. All pigs are equal. None are more equal than others.
• There are relevant reasons to consider each animal differently.
Mayor Lockwood:
• George, did you have a comment?
George Ragsdale:
• The current ordinance already provides for a kennel or veterinary hospital or a veterinary clinic
as a permitted use so this doesn't change that.
• Another thing is it provides for agricultural, general, and specialized farming including green
house, dairy farming, livestock raising, and poultry raising.
• The addition is domesticated animals as opposed to other agricultural animals which are already
included in the ordinance and are not being taken out.
Councilmember Thurman:
• It looks like what staff is recommending is really a little bit broader but it does require a use
permit?
• It is not saying that we prohibit anything. It just states that we should look at it on a case by case
basis.
Kathleen Field:
• ' That's right, without having to prove a hardship, because right now the only way if someone
wanted to put a barn in the front, and we have had applications in the past, an owner would go to
the Board of Zoning Appeals to request a variance.
• Again, it is a hardship as opposed to a special use permit which says, "yes, it is allowed but on a
case-by-case" basis.
Councilmember Thurman:
• So in that case the staff would make a recommendation and would come before the council to
approve the use permit each time?
Kathleen Field:
• Yes.
Councilmember Thurman:
• To me that makes a lot more sense than just saying, "no" if what we really want is to promote the
equestrian area.
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Councilmember Lusk:
• Mrs. Sullivan's question about the definition of domesticated animals is probably going to come
up down the road when somebody comes for a special use permit. Do you think it is proper at
this time to identify domesticated animals? Certainly, I wouldn't want peacocks in the front of
someone's house.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Maybe something you can either ride or eat.
City Attorney Frickey:
• I will say that the term is defined, in the code under the animal section, as any animal or foul
domesticated by humans so as to live and breed in tame conditions for the advantage of humans.
Councilmember Thurman:
• So a sheep could easily be a domesticated animal if you are getting the wool off of it and using
it?
City Attorney Frickey:
• Sheep fall under livestock which is under agricultural uses.
Councilmember Thurman:
• How about llamas and alpacas?
City Attorney Frickey:
• All other animals used or suitable for either food or labor are under the livestock definition as
well.
Councilmember Longoria:
• First of all, as always, there has been a lot of work done trying to get our hands around these
things.
• I think this represents a lot of really good progress.
• The concern I have, Kathleen, is that you said you looked at the Planning Commission
recommendations and decided that there needed to be maybe some adjustments made to the
language that they used?
Kathleen Field:
• Yes, we felt an alternative set of recommendations could be proposed that were less onerous and
allow for more conditions where you could have a barn riding area in the front but with a control
in place which would be the use permit. The use permit is less onerous than the variance which
is the only way they would consider an exception to the prohibited under the Planning
Commission recommendations. It would have to go the variance route.
Councilmember Longoria:
• We got two copies of this and we routinely get two copies of things when we start talking about
these types of changes.
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• Was there a point when you talked to the Planning Commission about maybe what you came up
with? What you thought about? Did you ask them about their rationale or their motivation to do
things or word things in a specific way?
Kathleen Field:
• We were at the meeting so we were part of the discussion.
Councilmember Longoria:
• Oh, I'm sorry. I thought there was some kind of disconnect between what the Planning
Commission was saying and what the staff was saying. We should have a goal this year of
having one of these things come before us without having some of the seeming frustrations that it
generates. I was just more worried about that than anything else.
• I certainly appreciate all of the effort that went into both versions of this.
Mayor Lockwood:
0
• The way I am reading into this is that you are basically taking the Planning Commission's work
and adjusting it to your recommendations, correct? It was not separate from the Planning
Commission's recommendations, it was just tweaking of theirs?
Kathleen Field:
• Yes, that is correct.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Staff is recommending no minimum acreage and Planning Commission is recommending a
minimum of 10 acres.
• What is the reasoning behind that; the 10 acres?
George Ragsdale:
• The 10 acres is only when you get into a riding arena.
• I take that back, we did propose a 10 acre minimum across the board.
• The reason for that is that we can't control the size of what is being proposed.
• We don't know how big the barn is going to be or how big the riding arena is going to be.
• We thought that if we were going to relax this and allow people to build those without any
constraint or any controls of how big it was going to be, then it should be at least a 10 acre
minimum. Therefore, the set -back requirements when they were met would keep it more
transparent to the community.
• If you remove that, theoretically, you could build a barn on a one acre parcel right out in front of
the house if that is what you wanted to do. That is what this would allow.
• We were trying to at least get it to a point that if you had a small piece of property, you would
have to come through a process and get it approved to make sure it was compatible with
surrounding uses and so on.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Could you please clarify the barns in front?
• On residential you have the 10 acre minimum. Does that also apply to non-residential?
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George Ragsdale:
• Yes, the non-residential is already allowed. We didn't change that.
Mayor Lockwood:
• My only comment is that when you use the one acre example, as time goes on, it is harder and
harder to find 10 acre plus parcels of property. You see a lot of parcels that are three or four
acres that someone might want to build a small barn and have some horses.
George Ragsdale:
• The 10 acres is for non-residential use.
• If the primary use is residential, then the 10 acre minimum doesn't apply.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Ok, that was my question before. I misunderstood that.
Councilmember Large:
• Would there be some mechanism other than minimum acreage something like a floor area ratio
or coverage ratio that would help regulate Mr. Ragsdale's point in terms of no minimum acreage
and having something built on a very small parcel?
Kathleen Field:
• That is the reason for the use permit. We could look at it on a case-by-case basis. In some cases,
there is no development around and there is maybe a church on one side and something else on
the other side. You really have to look at each case.
Robyn MacDonald, City Planner:
• I just want to make a little correction on the way we interpreted the 10 acres. For example, if
you bought seven acres and you wanted to put a barn on it, according to this you couldn't do it.
• That is why we took away 10 acres from the original text so a person could put a barn on a farm.
It could be a working farm.
• The problem right now is that if someone came in with seven or eight acres and got a permit for
a barn for a horse, technically, without a residential structure, we couldn't give it to them
because it states you have to have a minimum of 10 acres for a riding stable other than accessory.
• We figured out that there is a problem with the ordinance the way we interpreted it.
Mayor Lockwood:
• That makes sense to me. As time goes on, it is going to be harder and harder to find larger
parcels. However, you may have people pass on a five acre parcel, or a seven acre parcel, and
then it gets developed normally so you would lose some equestrian type development.
• I just think we need to consider it and talk about that.
Councilmember Thurman:
• 10 acres is a lot of property right now to purchase in Milton.
• That seems too large to require this type of restriction on anything less than 10 acres.
• It also totally prohibits all covered riding arenas in the front. If someone has 50-100 acres, I am
not comfortable telling them that they have to put their house right next to the street just so they
can put a riding arena behind it.
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• This seems like this is all or nothing. The way that our variance code is written, so that hardship
is so difficult to achieve, it does not allow much flexibility.
• It is saying okay you are going only in this box and that is what you have to do.
• I do not think it really does what we had hoped to do which I thought was to try to encourage the
equestrian aspect of our community.
George Ragsdale:
• If you are talking about a situation where there is not a house and you want to build a barn on a
piece of property, that is accessory use, and that is allowed and there is no 10 acre minimum.
That is exactly what we discussed at the Planning Commission meeting.
• The 10 acre minimum is applicable to non -accessory uses when the primary use is a residence.
• If it is an accessory use, there isn't any restriction that it has to be 10 acres.
Councilmember Thurman:
• If you have 50 acres and your house is in the back of the 50 acres, you really have no place to put
a barn in front of it.
George Ragsdale:
• Sure you do. If it is 50 acres, then you have satisfied what we have proposed which is a 10 acre
minimum.
Councilmember Thurman:
• Not if it is a covered riding arena.
George Ragsdale:
• If you are going to build a covered riding arena, you are not going to build something that is
going to be miniscule. You are going to build something large or else you are not going to build
it.
• Is it going to have to be substantial enough for whatever that purpose is? How big of a riding
arena do you want? Even if it is a 50 acre parcel, how big a riding arena do you want on that
property out in front?
• What level of scrutiny would someone have to go through to get approval for that?
Councilmember Thurman:
• A use permit would require to you to go through those steps, correct?
George Ragsdale:
• So does a variance.
Councilmember Thurman:
• No, a variance you have to have a hardship.
George Ragsdale:
• I understand, but that is my point about the level of scrutiny. Our point of view was that there
should be a hardship if you are going to be putting a massive structure in front of a piece of
property because we don't know where it is going to be, we don't know how big it is going to be,
etc.
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Councilmember Thurman:
• But a hardship cannot be self-imposed, so if you bought the property and the house happened to
be at the back of the 50 acres, then that puts you in a very difficult situation. You may never be
able to put a covered riding arena on that piece of property.
George Ragsdale:
• I agree with you and it was our point of view that was in the keeping of what the community
wants. It would only be required in a hardship situation.
Mayor Lockwood:
• I understand there are different scenarios if you don't fall under one of these scenarios, you go
back to a variance or it falls under code differently; however, I think we need to make this
ordinance as we move forward as friendly looking as it can be to the agricultural use.
• In the past, we have had some agricultural uses that have passed and moved on because of
certain requirements.
• If it is the council's intent, we need to word it as friendly as possible so it doesn't scare off
people who are looking at a piece of property in Milton.
Councilmember Thurman:
• At the same time, because they have to have a use permit, we do have some control over it so
that you don't have just anything. You don't have a person putting a huge riding rink on a two
acre lot surrounded by houses.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Mimi, would you like to step up?
Mimi Sullivan:
• There is a difference between a barn and a covered rink.
• What they are proposing for barns in the front yard is all great.
• The covered rings are a little more controversial because they can be bigger just by their nature;
they are steel, covered, and taller.
• I agree with what Karen is trying to say. If you have a 50 acre property and 40 of those acres are
between you and the road, people are going to want to put a covered ring in those 40 acres. You
would think there would be enough buffering in a 40 or 20 acre land area to accommodate that.
• In that case, the use permit would seem to me the better avenue to consider that on a case-by-
case basis. It is very hard to come in and claim a hardship.
• I am not in support of a variance where you have to prove a hardship.
• I like the idea more of a use permit where you have some control and regulation but it is not
something so difficult that we are deterring, really world-class, operations from coming in here.
• It is astonishing how well-known some of these dressage instructors and hunter jumper
instructors are.
• Gunter Sydell is coming to Shannondale Farm. He is an Olympian. He is amazing. He is
coming here for a clinic.
• There are people with a lot of money that want to run some high-class operations in Milton.
• They are not coming in looking at a three or five acre lot to put their world-class equestrian
center on.
• They are looking at the bigger ones and they would want a covered ring.
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• To be able to look at that as a use permit and have established guidelines, be considerate of our
neighbors but not make it a hardship for something like that.
• That would seem to be the more appealing way to go just to promote ourselves as an equestrian
community and also bring that kind of world-renowned recognition here.
• Hunt Tosh was the world hunter jumper rider two years ago.
• Everyone knew who Hunt Tosh was. He has a farm over on Freemanville Road. I don't think it
has a covered ring but he has a lot of property. I don't know if he is interested in building one,
but would we say that it has to be a hardship for him to put in a covered ring?
• I know you want to be friendly to the equestrian community but we also want to be considerate
of our neighbors.
• It seems to me that the use permit would enable us to do that.
Councilmember Kunz:
• Regarding the use permit under a covered ring, if you already have the structure built, what
exactly are we limiting, what exactly can be done under that structure?
• From a barn perspective, we might have a use permit for which particular animals can be in that
barn.
• If we are limiting it to just horses, sometimes horses require having a goat, for example, to keep
the horse calm.
• Is that how that is done by applying for a use permit for the specific uses of the animals
underneath that?
Kathleen Field:
• We have two recommendations, one from the Planning Commission which is just to limit barns
to horses.
• Then our recommendation where we have talked to people who have goats, for instance, and
who wanted to put the goats in the barns as well.
• That is where you run into the whole enforcement issue.
• To what extent am I suppose to enforce in a barn the different animals in there?
• Therefore, we thought it would be a lot cleaner and friendlier to use the term domesticated
animals as opposed to limiting it to one specific type.
• In terms of the first part of your question about the criteria and a covered ring, if you decide to
go that route, our next step would be to come up with criteria for a use permit for uncovered
rings that have lights or bleachers. We could come up with a very clean set of criteria that we
would use in order to minimize impact.
• We frequently get phone calls from homeowners who live near someone who has a covered ring
that is being used for commercial purposes with a higher intensity of use which could
inadvertently impact neighbors.
• You have to be really careful about what those criteria are that you use for rings.
• Of course, those applications for use permits would come through the city council for your
review and approval on a case-by-case basis.
Councilmember Large:
9 So, criteria would be getting a photometric architectural standard; hours of operation, etc.?
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Kathleen Field:
• Yes, it would be less than design standards because that would go to the DRB for their review,
but in terms of how far set -backs, size, etc.
• As of now, our current zoning ordinance states that if you have four acres or less you can only
build a certain size covered arena. If you have over four acres then you could build a larger one.
• Those are the types of things we will have to sort through to make sure we are protecting the
rights of the neighbors in an area so it would not adversely impact them.
Councilmember Large:
• The use permit process would involve the Planning Commission as well, is that correct?
Kathleen Field:
• Yes.
Councilmember Thurman:
• I would like to move to your topic number two: fences.
• It says that fencing material and height along public streets states, "allowed fencing material" but
it doesn't require someone who builds a house on a public street on a two acre lot zoned AG -1 to
necessarily put a fence in. It just states that if they are going to put a fence in this is what they
are allowed to put in.
Kathleen Field:
• That is correct, yes.
Councilmember Thurman:
• Have we considered colors that would be allowed for this fence?
• In the past we have always said black, white, or brown.
Kathleen Field:
• Robyn, does the DRB review that fence note?
Robyn MacDonald:
• That is something we could do.
Mayor Lockwood:
• I would agree with that.
Kathleen Field:
• Thank you for bringing up issue number two which is the fencing.
• The Planning Commission did review this and the Planning Commission and staff are clearly in
agreement.
Councilmember Lusk:
• On the same topic, I believe it is in the sign ordinance, that whenever a property is transferred, a
non -conforming sign has to be removed and the new owner has to conform.
0 Would you think of doing the same thing with fences?
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Kathleen Field:
• That is a question for our attorney. I am going to defer to him.
City Attorney Frickey:
• I don't know if the transfer impacts the non -conforming status. If it was taken down or removed,
that would destroy or expand the non -conforming status.
• There are certain things that cannot be done to it but just the ownership change doesn't affect it.
Councilmember Thurman:
• Regarding the sign, it is only if you are changing the wording of the sign. If you are actually
keeping the name of the sign, even if you transfer ownership, it is still grandfathered in, correct?
• So, it is only if you are changing a certain percentage of the sign itself.
City Attorney Frickey:
• Right, or if it is completely destroyed.
Councilmember Thurman:
• Right, it is no longer grandfathered in.
City Attorney Frickey:
• Right.
Kathleen Field:
• So you are saying that it is the same type of analogy?
City Attorney Frickey:
• Right.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Do we have any other questions on that?
Councilmember Thurman:
• We need to give staff some direction.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Do you need some direction or do we just need to look at both Planning Commission and staff
recommendations and be prepared if we have any more questions between now and then and
make a decision.
Kathleen Field:
• Sure, that is absolutely fine.
• If you have any request for further information or questions to be answered, either tonight or
during the next week, we will be happy to provide that information.
Mayor Lockwood:
9 I want to fully understand the 10 acre minimum and the Planning Commission's intent.
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Councilmember Thurman:
• It would be helpful if staff could provide us with the information regarding minimums in other
parts of our ordinance as far as what is allowed on what size parcel.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Laura, did you have a comment?
Laura Bentley:
• I just wanted to make you aware that it is common for covered riding arenas to be re -used and
moved from place to place.
• When the use permit gets discussed you might want to consider that; they can be old and ugly.
• Also, this is discussing covered riding arenas, there are also indoor riding arenas that are fully
enclosed, and that is probably a separate discussion, but those can be moved also from place to
place.
• There is one on Birmingham Road that sits far back; however, I think everyone is feeling that
these are going to be shiny new things and you may want to take into consideration that someone
may have in their plans to reuse one from a different facility because that is what trainers do
when they relocate. They take everything they own and try to put it on a new parcel.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Bill, did you have a comment?
Councilmember Lusk:
• It would still have to go in front of the DRB I would assume?
Kathleen Field:
• I would assume so.
Councilmember Lusk:
• A relocated facility?
Robyn MacDonald:
• We mentioned the four acre or less structure; that is only reviewed by the DRB if it is considered
commercial. Typically we have already had them look at it when it was a variance. The DRB
would get a courtesy review of the structure. If there was a large barn in the front we are not
going to review that if it is a part of a residence. That would be an accessory structure to the
residence and we do not deal with single-family type uses.
• As far as the size, the DRB only reviews it when it is commercial.
• If there is not a house on the property and it is just a riding rink or a riding stable, etc. the DRB
would review it.
• If it is associated with a residence, they don't look at it.
Councilmember Thurman:
• Can we have them look at it if it is a covered one?
Robyn MacDonald:
9 We can in the use permit.
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 25 of 36
Councilmember Thurman:
• Yes, since it is part of a use permit, I think that would be very important to have them look at it.
Councilmember Lusk:
• My point was particularly a relocated facility.
Robyn MacDonald:
• It would be site plan specific. If they want to move it, then they are going to have come back
again and have it reviewed again. So they can't just go and move it at their own will.
Mayor Lockwood:
• I agree but I think the point was that they could relocate an old ugly facility onto a new piece of
property; however, if the DRB was looking at it then they would have to look at pictures, etc.
Kathleen Field:
• We will put that in the use permit.
Councilmember Thurman:
• That would be good.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Thank you very much. We will move on to our next item.
City Clerk Gordon read Agenda Item #4.
4. Discussion of RZ11-17 — To Amend Article XVI of the Zoning Ordinance (Chapter 64 of
the City Code) - Signs.
(Presented by Kathleen Field, Community Development Director)
George Ragsdale, 540 Treyburn View, Milton, GA 30004:
• First, the Planning Commission absolutely supports the sign ordinance that is in front of you;
however, I want to clarify a couple of things.
• First of all, the cover letter that the community development department sent you indicates that
we have had six separate meetings to look at and make modifications and recommendations on
the sign ordinance.
• It doesn't reference the number of times that the subcommittee worked on it. They spent a lot of
hours on it.
• When you look at the marked up copy of that ordinance, it indicates the changes that the
Planning Commission recommended are in grey. If you read through it there are only two places
in that ordinance where there is any grey.
• I don't want you to think that we met six times and we only came up with those two changes.
• The bulk of the changes are in yellow. Those were changes that came from the reviews by the
Planning Commission.
• The enforcement section was added after we had voted on and after we had passed this, as were
the comments from the attorney.
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• That is not to say that we disagree with those, but to be honest, we have never even discussed
them because we had never seen them.
• Particularly, the enforcement piece was never presented to us.
• I would ask that if you are going to vote to approve or not approve, please look at that section
carefully because it has not been subject to review by anyone at this point.
Kathleen Field:
• The city's original sign ordinance was adopted in December 2006.
• Since that time it has remained intact with no major amendments.
• During the last five years, the Community Development Department has heard from local
business owners as well as citizens regarding this ordinance.
• A list of overall concerns was developed to address these proposed changes that were brought
forward to us by the business owners and the citizens.
• Those changes included signs during sale or lease of property, grand opening signage, banners;
location and duration, incidental signage including tenant directional free-standing signs, signs in
the Crabapple and Birmingham overlay districts as it relates to wall signs for multi -tenant double
fronted buildings, and window signage.
• This issue was brought to the Planning Commission and they formed a sub -committee that met
several times on this.
• Subsequent to that, there were two work sessions formally held by the Planning Commission,
then four Planning Commission meetings.
• Subsequent to those meetings, that document was then reviewed by our legal counsel.
• In front of you tonight, you have a revised February 10th copy. Staff found some typos, etc. so
we tweaked it. I would ask that you use this copy so we can all stay on the same page as we go
through this.
• The red lines are the changes done by the Planning Commission and then revised, as needed, by
our city attorney.
• I have also given you a plain copy which is the copy that incorporates all of the red line changes.
• I am going to go through this page by page.
• I will point out the new sections and especially those sections where I thought there was a
significant change you needed to know about.
• All the other changes are in red. You will see some in green, the green designates that it was
moved from one location to another, but there was a lot of reformatting that has taken place.
• Paul Frickey was the attorney that reviewed this. Angela and Robyn spent many hours trying to
put this together into the document you see tonight.
• I will start on page one. If you look at the bottom you will see two definitions, one up from the
bottom you will see blade/shingle sign which means a sign which extends out from a building
face or wall so that the sign face is perpendicular or at an angle to the building face or wall.
• That is new.
• Underneath that, clerestory means any high windows above eye level. That is also new.
• On page two, you will see that department means Community Development Department or such
other department as is given authority to implement this Authority by the City.
• Underneath that, for the word Director we have added the language; or such other department as
is given authority to implement this Authority by the City.
• Half way down, we have illegal activity signs which mean signs which advertise an activity
which is illegal under federal, state, and local laws.
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
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• Under illuminated signs, we have added the language; including electric lights, luminous tubes,
LED, neon, fiber optics, fluorescent.
• Landscape strip is new. Landscape strip means an area required by this zoning ordinance or by
conditions of zoning which is reserved for the installation and maintenance of plant materials.
• LED means an electronically controlled sign utilizing light -emitting diodes to form some or all
of the sign message.
• Finally, on this page a lollipop sign means a pole sign with an additional 3-dimensional shape or
sign on the top.
• Those are all the new definitions on page two.
Councilmember Large:
• Usually, when reviewing something like this, can we get line numbering turned on? It just
makes it easier to review something by page and line.
Kathleen Field:
• Yes, we can certainly try that. There are a lot of changes and I do apologize.
Councilmember Thurman:
• What is the green?
Kathleen Field:
• The green means that something has been moved to another part of the document. It is not new
just moved; either moved in or moved out.
Councilmember Longoria:
• We have 60 pages to go through. Are you going to read everything in red?
Kathleen Field:
• No, just the new items.
• Neon signs means neon or other inert gas filled tubing signs. This definition includes lighted
banding used as trim around buildings or windows.
• Nonconforming sign means any sign which was lawfully erected and maintained prior to the
adoption, revision or amendment of the Article XVI of the City of Milton Zoning Ordinance, but
which, by reason of such adoption, revision, or amendment, no longer meets or conforms to one
or more such requirements within Article XVI.
• Pole sign means a freestanding sign with visible support structures.
• Pylon sign means a freestanding sign with visible support structure or with the support structure
enclosed with a pole cover.
• Shingle/blade sign which means a sign which extends out from a building face or wall so that the
sign face is perpendicular or at an angle to the building face or wall.
• Zoned development means property subject to a single zoning application.
• On page 8, Sec. 64-2269 Revocation was moved to the back of the document.
• On page 9, Sec. 64-2273 Suspension; termination was moved to the back of the document.
• On page 12, at the top, we have added three new prohibited signs and they are: temporary signs
and banners attached to fences or walls, unless specifically allowed; internally illuminated
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window signs, including neon, except as specifically allowed; and signs in landscape strip, unless
approved by the City Arborist.
• Section 64-2296 Violations and penalties has been moved to the back of the document.
• Section 64-2298 Removal of unlawful or dangerous signs has been moved to the back of the
document.
• Section 64-2299 Sign location; there are some changes I would like to bring to your attention.
• It states, Setback: Unless a more restrictive setback is specified in conditions of zoning or
otherwise in this article all permanent ground signs shall set back 20 feet (it was originally 10
feet) from the edge of pavement. No sign, except authorized traffic signs shall project over the
right-of-way. All temporary signs, as described in Sec. 64-2303, shall be placed at least 15 feet
from the edge of pavement. No signs shall be placed between the road and the back of the
landscape strip.
Councilmember Hewitt:
• Didn't we have a temporary informational sign? Is it the same as a temporary sign? Didn't we
have a right-of-way plus restriction on that currently?
City Manager Lagerbloom:
• You do, it is right-of-way plus 10 feet. In essence, 20 feet from the edge of pavement is very
similar to the right-of-way plus 10 feet.
Councilmember Hewitt:
• By going from 15 feet edge of pavement, are we giving five feet back?
City Manager Lagerbloom:
• Yes, this actually becomes a little less restrictive.
Councilmember Kunz:
• I guess the temporary sign, does that include political signs as well?
Kathleen Field:
• Yes.
Councilmember Lusk:
• Would real estate for sale signs be in that category; 15 feet off the edge of pavement?
Robyn MacDonald:
• Yes, if it is a temporary real estate sign that is a 2 x 2, correct Angela?
Angela Rambeau, City Planner:
• Yes.
Paul Moore, 15290 White Columns Drive, Milton, GA 30004
• We tried to make this really simple and clear.
• The everyday citizen who is trying to put a sign out does not know what the right-of-way is. The
whole point behind this wording is to simply say; from the edge of the road here is the
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Page 29 of 36
measurement so nobody has to figure out with maps, etc. where the edges of the right-of-way
are.
Kathleen Field:
• On page 15, item number l (c3) states; signs during the sale or lease of property, one sign per
road frontage of the property for sale or lease, shall be allowed. The sign shall not be internally
illuminated. The sign shall not exceed nine square feet on major roads, and six square feet on all
other roads. A permit shall be required for signs greater than six square feet.
• We have increased the size of signs allowed during the sale or lease of property by two square
feet.
• We tried to be cognizant that if you are on a major highway signs would be allowed to be a little
larger.
Mayor Lockwood:
• That is 3 x 3 so that is not a huge sign.
Councilmember Thurman:
• On the major roads, people are driving by faster so you want them big enough for people to see.
Councilmember Hewitt:
• I like how we have added in item number 1 (b2) that signs have to be removed within seven
calendar days after the purpose of which the sign is intended has been accomplished.
Kathleen Field:
• Under Banners, it states, in addition, each new business shall be allowed a banner for 30
consecutive days starting from the issuance of the business license or occupational tax certificate.
• That is saying that you are allowed a banner no more than 10 consecutive days four times a year;
however, if you have a new business, we are going to give you a banner for an additional 30
consecutive days.
Councilmember Lusk:
• That seems restrictive that they have 30 days from the issuance of the business license or
occupational tax certificate.
• What if they wanted to wait 10 days, for example, from the issuance of these items, would that
be acceptable?
Kathleen Field:
• Yes, we will work with each new business and be reasonable.
Councilmember Hewitt:
• People leave their re -zoning signs up forever. I would like to see those taken down once the
zoning action has been taken.
Kathleen Field:
• That is a good point.
• We are now going to talk about signs in each of the zoning districts.
• First of all, we will start with the agricultural district.
Work Session of the Milton City Council
Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 30 of 36
• On page 16, item b2 regarding other signage, it states, each development may post one banner,
maximum 24 square feet, maximum 5 feet tall, for a maximum of 40 days, during graduation
season (from May 1St to June 151h). A permit is not required.
• That is really the only new thing in the AG -1 district.
Councilmember Thurman:
• Really, they can put anything they want on that banner? We can't tell them what they can or
can't put on that banner but it is just during that time?
Kathleen Field:
• That is correct.
• I am now moving forward to single-family residential, CUP and NUP districts.
• On page 17, item 2, we have added that each development may post one banner, maximum 24
square feet, maximum 5 feet tall, for a maximum of 40 days, during graduation season (from
May 1St to June 151h). A permit is not required.
• This is the only new addition to the residential single-family district.
Councilmember Hewitt:
• I have a question about flags at the bottom of this page.
• It states that each development may display no more than one flag and flagpole, etc.
• What if someone wants to fly the American flag and the state flag all on the same pole?
Kathleen Field:
• Mr. City Attorney?
City Attorney Frickey:
• As I read the definition of flag is limited to the specific flag itself, so if it is limited to a single
flag, no more than one flag would be a choice of state or national.
Councilmember Kunz:
• Would this be a situation for a use permit? How does that work?
Councilmember Longoria:
• Do we know if subdivisions or other places of business in Milton are in violation of this today?
Robyn MacDonald:
• Well, we have some places that are grandfathered in. For instance, Fry's has three flagpoles but
they only have two flags up because they were only allowed to have two flags. Code
enforcement told them to take down the third flag.
Councilmember Longoria:
• Really? We told them to take down one of their flags?
Robyn MacDonald:
• That was a condition when it was done in Fulton County so it is not like we go around measuring
and looking for flags.
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 31 of 36
Councilmember Longoria:
• As a boy scout, I know there are plenty of opportunities to fly more than two flags and I know it
is not uncommon for people who want to fly flags to want to fly more than one.
• I don't understand why we are getting into this business.
Kathleen Field:
• I just know that in Roswell we got into the problem of flags with the automobile dealerships.
They would put up the American flag and use it as a commercial banner.
• You have to be very careful when you are talking about flags, how you control it, because people
can really take advantage of it.
• You can have huge flags and many flags, so where do you draw the line?
Councilmember Longoria:
• Is there any circumstance under which a really large American flag or Georgia flag is a bad
thing?
Councilmember Lusk:
• As it relates to commercial enterprises, a 24 square feet flag would get lost. That size is fine on a
residence or smaller property.
Kathleen Field:
• It also depends on the height of the pole.
• We can certainly go back and look at that and do some more homework and look at more
options.
Mayor Lockwood:
• We still need to address whether it is one flag or more than one.
Councilmember Longoria:
• Usually, if you are going to fly more than one flag you are going to fly three. You have the
American flag, the state flag, and an auxiliary flag.
• I can't conceive where we are abusing flags to the point that they are problematic.
Councilmember Kunz:
• It is limiting what the flag is saying.
Mayor Lockwood:
• A flag could be anything.
Kathleen Field:
• Yes, it is like a sign, you can't control content.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Someone could put a flagpole up and put a banner on it.
Councilmember Longoria:
• When did something cease being a flag and become a sign? The American flag is not a sign.
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 32 of 36
City Attorney Frickey:
• Based on what it is made of essentially.
Councilmember Longoria:
• We know what flags are and we know what signs are. We should allow people to fly flags if
they want to fly flags and we shouldn't try to curtail what they do but we should curtail them
from flying signs as flags.
Kathleen Field:
• All we can do is define what it is. We can't define content.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Are we safe to go with one flag and adjust it later if we need to?
Kathleen Field:
• We will be glad to look for some alternate language for you.
• I am going on to page 18 regarding apartment and townhouse residential district; we have added
the graduation banner requirement.
• On Page 19, ONI districts regarding wall signs we have made a language change that says single
tenant buildings and end units of multi tenant buildings may have an additional wall sign. So
now businesses can have more than two signs.
Councilmember Lusk:
• How about the Birmingham Crossroads area and on Hwy. 9 and Bethany where there are two
exposures to the interior development and to the public right-of-way? Are two wall signs
allowed there?
Kathleen Field:
• Once we get through all the zoning districts, we will then talk about overlays. In the overlays we
have some very specific language about that.
• I am going to move on now to page 20.
• For the ONI, we added the flag section.
• We added the graduation banner and the flag to the mixed use district.
• On page 23, we added the flag section to the commercial and industrial park districts.
• On page 24 in industrial districts under wall signs, single tenant buildings and end units of multi
tenant buildings may have one additional wall sign.
• Flags are now allowed in this district.
• Our last district is mobile home park districts.
• Under other signage section b 1, it states that each development may display up to 12 square feet
of signage with no single sign greater than four square feet.
• The graduation banner and flag display section has been added.
• Now, we are going to the Overlay Districts.
• On page 26, we will start with the State Route 9 Overlay District.
• Under section d, numbers 2, 3, and 4 are all new. They are as follows:
• The banner shall be placed on the tenant's storefront or wall space.
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 33 of 36
• If building location renders installation on the wall not visible from the road, an administrative
variance may be applied for to allow the banner to be installed on the ground. The variance shall
condition the banner placement to be a specific location on the development. All ground
mounted banners shall be installed on a PVC frame, or its equivalent. If the banner is required to
be placed behind a fence, the banner shall have a maximum height of 12 feet.
• No more than four ground mounted banners may be displayed in a zoned development at one
time.
• On page 27, there is a policy change that states, permanent and temporary signs in windows shall
not exceed twenty percent of each window. The area of the doors and spandrel glass panels are
excluded from the calculation of the applicable sign area. The area of clerestory windows is
excluded from the calculations of the applicable sign area.
• Also on page 27, the following has been added: Notwithstanding the prohibitions contained in
subsection (r) below, each commercial establishment shall be entitled to a maximum of two
internally illuminated window signs. If the establishment has a single internally illuminated
window sign, the sign may be a maximum of four square feet in size and may be neon or LED
illumination. If the establishment has two internally illuminated window signs, neither sign may
be larger than two square feet in size and only one may be neon or LED, while the second may
be of other illumination. All internally illuminated window signs shall be positioned on the
interior as a window sign, not more than ten feet from the floor, with at least one sign being not
more than five feet from the main public entrance to the commercial establishment. None of the
internally illuminated window signs may blink, flash, fluctuate, or be animated in any way.
Internally illuminated window signs may only be illuminated during the time the commercial
establishment is open to the public for business.
• Any sign on or within five feet of a window is considered a window sign for purposes of
application of this Section.
• On page 29, the following has been added: internally illuminated window signs (except as
allowed in section 64-2324(n).
• I am now moving on to the Crabapple Crossroads Overlay District.
• On page 33, under wall signs we added: single tenant buildings and end units of multi tenant
buildings may have an additional wall sign.
• So they are going from being able to have one wall sign to two.
• We have also changed the following: A business may have an additional sign perpendicular to
the wall with a maximum sign area size of four square feet. We have changed it from two to
four.
• Under other signage, the following is all new: Permanent and temporary signs in windows shall
not exceed twenty percent of each window. The area of the doors and spandrel glass panels are
excluded from the calculation of the applicable sign area. The area of clerestory windows is
excluded from the calculations of the applicable sign area.
• Notwithstanding the prohibitions contained in subsection (r) below, each commercial
establishment shall be entitled to a maximum of two internally illuminated window signs. If the
establishment has a single internally illuminated window sign, the sign may be a maximum of
four square feet in size and may be neon or LED illumination. If the establishment has two
internally illuminated window signs, neither sign may be larger than two square feet in size and
only one may be neon or LED, while the second may be of other illumination. All internally
illuminated window signs shall be positioned on the interior as a window sign, not more than ten
feet from the floor, with at least one sign being not more than five feet from the main public
entrance to the commercial establishment. None of the internally illuminated window signs may
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 34 of 36
blink, flash, fluctuate, or be animated in any way. Internally illuminated window signs may only
be illuminated during the time the commercial establishment is open to the public for business.
• The next section deals with sandwich board signs.
• A business may have one sandwich board sign.
• Single or double faced
• Metal or wood framed (no plastic)
• Black or green, chalkboard type face
• Located per ADA compliance (minimum 36
from building
Sign shall be:
inches from the building); no more than 10 feet
• Located so as not to impede pedestrian or vehicular traffic
• Not placed in tree island or landscape strip
• Maximum height of four feet, six square feet per panel
• Brought inside at the close of business
Councilmember Hewitt:
• I have a question going back to the section regarding 20% of each window. Does that mean 20%
of each window panel, not 20% of, for example, all windows in a row combined together?
Paul Moore:
• Yes, 20% of one window panel.
George Ragsdale:
• I think that the language in the section of each one of these overlays needs to be re -worked
because when it was first written the 20% of each window panel was not in there.
• So the language with respect to the doors, the clerestory, and the spandrel glass was intended to
take that out of the equation for calculating the 20% overall.
• When we put the "per each" in there, we didn't go back and correct the language at the end so I
think it needs to be corrected so it is clear.
Kathleen Field:
• We are now on the Birmingham Crossroads Overlay district
• On page 38, under wall signs, the new language states, single tenant buildings and end units of
multi tenant buildings may have one additional wall sign.
• Then, under item 6, it states, a business may have an additional sign, perpendicular to the wall,
with a maximum sign area size of four square feet. This has been changed to four square feet
instead of two.
• On Page 39, numbers 1 and 2 are new. They state as follows:
• Permanent and temporary signs in windows shall not exceed twenty percent of each window, and
shall not block visibility from outside the store. The area of the doors and clerestory windows
are excluded from the calculation of the applicable sign area. Internally illuminated window
signs are prohibited.
• A business may have one sandwich board sign. Sign shall be:
• Single or double faced
• Metal or wood framed (no plastic)
• Black or green, chalkboard type face
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 35 of 36
• Located per ADA compliance (minimum 36 inches from the building); no more than 10 feet
from building
• Located so as not to impede pedestrian or vehicular traffic
• Not placed in tree island or landscape strip
• Maximum height of four feet, six square feet per panel
• Brought inside at the close of business
• I am now on page 42, regarding Master Signage Plan.
• This is an entirely new section.
• The goal of this section is to coordinate all the signage in a new development.
• ***The next 15 pages of the RZI I-17 Signs Text Amendment Documents outline The Master
Signage Plan and pictures of examples of acceptable signs***
• The next section starting on page 57 outlines signs that are prohibited.
• There is nothing new in this section.
• Starting on page 58 until the end of the document, these pages were just moved from other
sections and were revised only for clarity by the city attorney. Nothing has been added or
removed from these pages.
Councilmember Longoria:
• Under prohibited signs: beacons, search lights, laser lights or images; have we contemplated
allowing a special permit for temporary use of those type of things for grand openings, special
events, etc.?
Kathleen Field:
• Angela, could you please respond to that?
Angela Rambeau:
• We have always just told people, "No, they are prohibited."
Kathleen Field:
• We could put it into a special event permit.
Mayor Lockwood:
• Would the council like the staff to look at that?
Councilman Thurman:
• Yes.
Councilman Large:
• I just wanted to compliment you on all the hard work you have put into this.
Mayor Lockwood:
• I second that. Well, if there is no further discussion, this meeting is adjourned.
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Monday, February 13, 2012 at 6:00 pm
Page 36 of 36
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After no further discussion, the Work Session adjourned at 8:53 p.m.
Date Approved: March 19, 2012.
Sudie AM Gordon, City Cl#k Joe Lockwood,
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